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Zee
Posts: 28,371 Senior Member
.357 Mag - 152gr HBWC
Zee
Posts: 28,371 Senior Member
After the success with the Hollow Base Wadcutters in my .44 Spl, I decided to order some 152gr HBWC from Matt’s Bullets.
My wife currently uses my GP-100 and 180gr WFN hardcast bullets with Trail Boss as her Bedside Gun. I call them Mouse Fart loads. But, with the weight, they penetrate well.
Ever looking for the next best thing, I decided to try these new bullets in a reduced load and launch them from my S&W 340 M&P. Another HD combination for her or maybe a travel gun.
I had to seat them rather deep to fit the cylinder.
Using Hodgdon’s directions for Trail Boss loads, I measured the case capacity from a loaded bullet and found 4.2gr Trail Boss filled the case to the base of the bullet. Ironically, this is their listed Max Load for Trail Boss and a 158gr cast bullet.
That cavity at the end of the round is quite daunting.
Being a DAO Snub Nosed Revolver, I set up an unorthodox shooting bench on some railroad ties and leaned a steel target against a mesquite tree 10 yards away. It was time to test accuracy.
Recoil was minimal and this too can qualify as a Mouse Fart Load. Even in this diminutive lightweight gun.
Velocity clocked 745 fps from the tiny barrel which was considerably more than I anticipated. Honestly, I was expecting 450-500 fps. I was surprised!
Set up some water jugs and let fly from 5 yards away.
The bullet penetrated 2 jugs. Breaking the back of the second but not exiting, the bullet came to rest at the bottom.
With 100% weight retention and only 745 fps from a snub nose.........that ain’t bad for a Mouse Fart Load!!!
A better shooter could probably squeak out a better group from a DAO, but I’m kinda happy with the group for a reduced HD load.
Me is happy.
I have some for my .45 Colt that I need to load and test next.
These bullets have grown on me.........
My wife currently uses my GP-100 and 180gr WFN hardcast bullets with Trail Boss as her Bedside Gun. I call them Mouse Fart loads. But, with the weight, they penetrate well.
Ever looking for the next best thing, I decided to try these new bullets in a reduced load and launch them from my S&W 340 M&P. Another HD combination for her or maybe a travel gun.
I had to seat them rather deep to fit the cylinder.
Using Hodgdon’s directions for Trail Boss loads, I measured the case capacity from a loaded bullet and found 4.2gr Trail Boss filled the case to the base of the bullet. Ironically, this is their listed Max Load for Trail Boss and a 158gr cast bullet.
That cavity at the end of the round is quite daunting.
Being a DAO Snub Nosed Revolver, I set up an unorthodox shooting bench on some railroad ties and leaned a steel target against a mesquite tree 10 yards away. It was time to test accuracy.
Recoil was minimal and this too can qualify as a Mouse Fart Load. Even in this diminutive lightweight gun.
Velocity clocked 745 fps from the tiny barrel which was considerably more than I anticipated. Honestly, I was expecting 450-500 fps. I was surprised!
Set up some water jugs and let fly from 5 yards away.
The bullet penetrated 2 jugs. Breaking the back of the second but not exiting, the bullet came to rest at the bottom.
With 100% weight retention and only 745 fps from a snub nose.........that ain’t bad for a Mouse Fart Load!!!
A better shooter could probably squeak out a better group from a DAO, but I’m kinda happy with the group for a reduced HD load.
Me is happy.
I have some for my .45 Colt that I need to load and test next.
These bullets have grown on me.........
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Replies
I need to get the 45s loaded in some auto-rim cases.
-Mikhail Kalashnikov
How many jugs did the 180s penetrate???
Still, the HBWCs shot backwards do have a long standing record of use and look pretty good in your tests.
Several of my hunting revolvers (.44 Mag / .454 Casul / .500 S&W / etc) use heavy WFN-GC bullets. Unless you hit bone or support structure........they run.......with little blood and little damage.
I am not drinking the Koolaid Bigslug drinks.
I want penetration.......and......expansion. And when I can throw velocity in there as well.........it just makes everything much mo betta.
When bullet weight and velocity are high enough. I become more trusting of the hp design.
I remember some guy here wayyyy back when who used to say he wouldn't reload and had no use for it. I think that same guy used to say he had no use for a chronograph....
Guess everyone can learn to become a cool kid...
😎
How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
As soon as the archives are restored......
I’ll chronograph them and compare speed. Then, shoot one through jugs and see the difference in penetration.
If they are slower and they penetrate further, we can surmise that slowing down the reversed bullets would meet in the middle somewhat.
However, I am not a fan of going slower. Speed kills. Slowing down a non expanding or less expanding bullet minimizes the one thing a solid has going for it outside of penetration........impact speed.
So, in terminal aspects, a slow solid is nothing more than stabbing someone with a fat pencil.
Not decisively dramatic.
How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
Then, we increase recoil as well and make it less controllable for the petite bride.
Im trying to find that middle ground where she can shoot fast and comfortably while affording acceptable terminal ballistics.
For what it's worth all my SD guns are loaded with +P slightly lighter for caliber bullets like the 180gr+p HPs I carry in my .45s, 155 HPs in my .40s and 115 HPs in my 9's. Speed kills has been ingrained into my head for a long time.
.38 Spl
148gr Wadcutter
660 fps
Fully penetrated 3 jugs/stopped in 4th.
There was a noticeable, though not dramatic by any means, difference in recoil and visual impact on the jugs (water flying).
Not a big difference between the two loads.
148gr HBWC vs 152 HBWC (Reversed)
660 fps vs 745 fps
The main difference being:
4 jugs vs 2 jugs
In the end, recoil is a close wash but, the WC penetrates deeper while the HP moves more water.
Something we already knew.
The question still remains........which one kills faster?
Any volunteers? 😁
GunNuts theory seems proved out. Also explains a few things about bullet design. Polymer tips, varying jacket thickness, cavity shape etc..
Lethality is relatively reliable, given accurate delivery to the right place. Speed of lethality must certainly be inconsistently unpredictable at best. Perhaps prevailing conditions and circumstances can guide us. Weather conditions, clothing type normally worn, available cover in the area or areas of forseen use, proximity of other people etc..
I’m thinking we need two pigs. I’ll wait 😁
So, if it doesn’t accurately represent a true tissue impact, it at least gives us a comparable result between all parts tested. That’s worth something.
I agree that clothing/fur/bones/organs can effect a bullet differently depending on what combination of the above the bullet encounters on its path. I can’t recreate that in a static environment.
What I can say, is that every hollow point handgun bullet I’ve used on live tissue from 9mm up to .454 Casull has performed admirably. Expanding, penetrating, damaging, and killing quickly, with either dead on impact or adequate blood trail results.
I cannot say that with wide solids/cast.
Their result was good penetration when heavy bone was or wasn’t hit, minimal internal damage, and little to no blood trail. They still died. Some instantly (spine) and some after an average run. But, none of the autopsies showed what I would determine to be acceptable internal damage.
Everything dies. Just depends on how you want it dead.
The details are fuzzy but IIRC he did not have a clean/fast kill though he had a good hit. Obviously all bullets have a range of velocity in which they perform as designed. Obviously at long distances the .35 Rem does not expand and acts as a solid which mimics the poor performance Zee has brought up.
I think most of us just push bullets as fast as we can as long as they are accurate but never stop to think about that "performance envelop". This bullet in the OP is just an interesting example which seems like it would be an easy one to "tune" to your desired performance in terms of expansion and penetration by playing with the velocity of the projectile.
Again the exercise is academic (though the performance of the WC seems to prove the premise) and as Zee said the only thing that counts is real life performance and no one has stepped to volunteer for the test
There can be no doubt that expanding bullets offer excellent performance. The right one at the right speed for the right job.