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Interesting information.

earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
http://deadlyweapons-army.blogspot.com/2011/08/deadl-quiet-special-purpose-revolver.html?m=1

I've read about this weapon and ammunition before, but so far this is the most comprehensive treatise I've seen. I found it accidentally well searching for other content.

From previous discussions, I think most of us agree that shot shells have a narrow and limited scope of effective use, and become ineffectual beyond or outside that small window. Special purpose handguns specific to the .410 shot shell, and their fanatical adcocates occasionally become a convenient target of gest. 

The information in the linked article does seem to indicate that even the small shotshells do provide serious performance at very close range. No doubt we've all seen this to be the case with larger bore shotguns.

Something to consider for anyone interested in the pursuit of understanding.

Replies

  • Elk creekElk creek Senior Member Colorado!Posts: 7,697 Senior Member
    http://deadlyweapons-army.blogspot.com/2011/08/deadl-quiet-special-purpose-revolver.html?m=1

    I've read about this weapon and ammunition before, but so far this is the most comprehensive treatise I've seen. I found it accidentally well searching for other content.

    From previous discussions, I think most of us agree that shot shells have a narrow and limited scope of effective use, and become ineffectual beyond or outside that small window. Special purpose handguns specific to the .410 shot shell, and their fanatical adcocates occasionally become a convenient target of gest. 

    The information in the linked article does seem to indicate that even the small shotshells do provide serious performance at very close range. No doubt we've all seen this to be the case with larger bore shotguns.

    Something to consider for anyone interested in the pursuit of understanding.

    The start of the judge. I wonder if smith had a few examples laying around........it gave an engineer an idea.
    Aim higher, or get a bigger gun.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    Elk creek said:
    http://deadlyweapons-army.blogspot.com/2011/08/deadl-quiet-special-purpose-revolver.html?m=1

    I've read about this weapon and ammunition before, but so far this is the most comprehensive treatise I've seen. I found it accidentally well searching for other content.

    From previous discussions, I think most of us agree that shot shells have a narrow and limited scope of effective use, and become ineffectual beyond or outside that small window. Special purpose handguns specific to the .410 shot shell, and their fanatical adcocates occasionally become a convenient target of gest. 

    The information in the linked article does seem to indicate that even the small shotshells do provide serious performance at very close range. No doubt we've all seen this to be the case with larger bore shotguns.

    Something to consider for anyone interested in the pursuit of understanding.

    The start of the judge. I wonder if smith had a few examples laying around........it gave an engineer an idea.
    Its possible.
    The linked information was likely classified for quite awhile before becoming public.
  • Elk creekElk creek Senior Member Colorado!Posts: 7,697 Senior Member
    Elk creek said:
    http://deadlyweapons-army.blogspot.com/2011/08/deadl-quiet-special-purpose-revolver.html?m=1

    I've read about this weapon and ammunition before, but so far this is the most comprehensive treatise I've seen. I found it accidentally well searching for other content.

    From previous discussions, I think most of us agree that shot shells have a narrow and limited scope of effective use, and become ineffectual beyond or outside that small window. Special purpose handguns specific to the .410 shot shell, and their fanatical adcocates occasionally become a convenient target of gest. 

    The information in the linked article does seem to indicate that even the small shotshells do provide serious performance at very close range. No doubt we've all seen this to be the case with larger bore shotguns.

    Something to consider for anyone interested in the pursuit of understanding.

    The start of the judge. I wonder if smith had a few examples laying around........it gave an engineer an idea.
    Its possible.
    The linked information was likely classified for quite awhile before becoming public.
    It had a factory smith cylinder. I bet at least on smith guy was in that room.
    Aim higher, or get a bigger gun.
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,772 Senior Member
    edited October 2019 #5
    I was curious to know the shot size, it seems to be the same as #3 shot or .14 caliber. Not too bad but I'd like to see a little more velocity out of this loading.
    I can see the tunnel rat application, it wouldn't leave your ears ringing in those tight confined spaces.
    Hmm... 15 pellets of #3 tungsten shot at around 735 fps, it's gonna hurt at close range. Maybe aim for the face. Tungsten being pretty dense and hard should penetrate fairly well.
    At 110 dB, it's still fairly loud. It's not Hollywood Quiet but probably won't leave you deaf.
    I like to see those loads in action just to get a feel of what they can do. Definitely close range stuff.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • FreezerFreezer Senior Member Posts: 2,598 Senior Member
    Is there ammunition on the market for the Jude or other 410 revolvers? BTW My pocket gun is meant for bad breath range.
    I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    If you read the discription of the suppressed cartridge. Its obviously a complexed, expensive and impractical round to mass produce.

    I would assume???
    That modern .410 shotshells carry a significantly improved pay load at an improved velocity over the suppressed military round, although minus the suppression.
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Colorado SpringsPosts: 7,821 Senior Member
    edited October 2019 #8
    @earlyagain ; I'm going to read that whole thing after I've had a bit more coffee. I've always thought the .410 under rated for many applications. As a young teen I brought down many more pass-shot wood ducks with a .410 pump than did my father and BIL  armed with 12 gauge auto-loaders.

    And running rabbits? Beat them by a 3-1 margin.  :)  (my Dad was a good shot....my BIL.....marginal, but my .410 usually accounted for well over half of supper on any given evening).

    The .410 is under-rated. Not my first choice for much of anything, but certainly not to be relegated to the "nose-bleed" seats.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    I have absolutely no experience with the .410

    I'd be inclined to think a precision choked smooth bore in combination with shot contained in a properly engineered wad would put pellets on target better than a rifled barrel that's compromised to fire 45 Colt cartridges alternatively.

    Although, it seems likely that .410 shotshells marketed for handgun use are engineered for maximum performance in that application.
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,772 Senior Member
    Similar velocity as it's 12 gauge big brother, just fewer pellets (4 000 Buck pellets instead of 12 00 buck pellets). The 12 gauge will give you better range if the goal is to land at least 4 pellets on target.
    Nothing to sneeze at if the distances are close. Besides, nobody ever said you're only allowed to shoot once (unless all you got is a single shot).
    I have a .410 and using the 3" shells loaded with 11/16 oz (301 grains) of #4 at 1150 fps, you don't want to be in front of it when it goes off! At arms length away it will spank you 😈
    All that shot comes out like a single projectile.

    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,772 Senior Member
    Never tried the .410 out of a revolver though. Don't know what the velocity drop would be. I still wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one. Definitely for close range applications since those pellets would spread pretty quick, I imagine.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Colorado SpringsPosts: 7,821 Senior Member
    When I was kid you could still use lead shot for waterfowl.  While not a common loading, I would sometimes run across a box or two of Remington/Peters 3" .410  filled with #4 shot.

    We didn't have duck dogs or decoys, so our duck hunting was pass-shooting ("sky-busting" if you will). That particular load accounted for more than a few limits of 40+ yard ducks. 

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    Im a worse that terrible wing shot. Its made me curious about shotgun performance.

    Everything Ive read indicates that pellets on target is what kills. Speed and mass being of lesser import.

    Also shotgun barrels and ammunition type can be peculiar. Older shells having paper wads and older barrels having different shaped forcing cones to accommodate those. As well as modern shells having space age polymer wads that perform over a wide range of choke.

    I don't think there can be any doubt about the .410's payload being effective when delivered on target.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Under a logPosts: 27,457 Senior Member
    I'd 'almost' be willing to bet that I'm the only one on here that has a MEC Jr. shotshell reloader press in .410. And I've done a bit of experimenting with the not lead shot offerings over a couple or three decades. I have a Rem. 870 pump in .410 that is one of my favorites for dove hunting so I had to do a little experimenting with bismuth and steel shot for hunting on WMRA(Wildlife Management Resources Agency) fields that didn't allow lead shot.
    What I found out mirrored what I'd already found out with the 28, 20, and 12 gauges. Fine plastic shot buffer is a NECESSITY for good patterning in all four with steel or bismuth. It allows the shot to move around and settle in as it passes through the choke, and steel and bismuth need a more open choke to pattern the same, and as densely, as a tighter choke with lead shot. And as to the lead shot I only buy the shot that is graphite coated; graphite makes the shot slick and lets it squeeze down in the choke without excessive deformation.
    Shot buffer comes in several sizes just like shot, and has to be weighed out precisely for the shot charge; its weight has to be taken into account for the total shot charge weight. And mixed with the individual shot charge for each shell before dropping that shot charge into the shot cup. THAT is a pain in the patootie as it slows down the process.
    As to the .45 Colt/.410 pistols, I've always thought that the combo was thought up by someone that didn't understand bore sizes. A .410 BORE size is .410 and a .45 Colt groove is around .454 and bore of around .446. It would have made more sense to use a .41 cal rifled barrel and use that to avoid the disparate bore sizes of the .410 and .45 Colt combo. They didn't ask me, though. :)  My best guess is they went with .45 Colt as the Colt round is roughly the same size as the .410 shotshell. But that larger bore size of the Colt round lets a LOT of gas blow by the .410 shot cup gas seal.
    What Linefinder said about the .410 for wingshooting and rabbits with a .410 shotgun is what I experienced growing up. I used a single shot .410 for quail hunting before I was in double digit age, and you learned quick to let the quail get a little distance away before firing; that .410; it would leave nothing but feathers if you shot too close. Deadly on the bunnies, too.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    Ive seen where the polymer buffer makes a big difference on buckshot patterns with factory 12ga shells. Makes sense.

    Its sounds like the 410/45 revolvers are giving up a lot of performance to the compromised chambering pair. Performance that maybe isn't likely to be missed at 10 feet or so.
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,772 Senior Member
    When I was kid you could still use lead shot for waterfowl.  While not a common loading, I would sometimes run across a box or two of Remington/Peters 3" .410  filled with #4 shot.

    We didn't have duck dogs or decoys, so our duck hunting was pass-shooting ("sky-busting" if you will). That particular load accounted for more than a few limits of 40+ yard ducks. 

    Mike
    My first .410 was an H&R single purchased at a local hardware store. I used the heck out of that gun! Sadly, it was stolen one day. You remember how it was back then, no need to lock your doors, gun racks instead of gun safes, everyone knew everyone. Easy pickings for thieves today but that just wasn't the case back then.
    Anyway, I eventually replaced it with a Stevens but then, almost immediately, moved on to a Savage in 20 gauge. Most of those early guns got passed on when I joined the military (I kept the newer Stevens .410 though) but I still remember the others fondly.
    Today, having an assortment of 12 gauge shotguns to play with, I still like shooting the heck out of that .410.
    😁
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Colorado SpringsPosts: 7,821 Senior Member
    Yep....my .410 pump got stolen along with several other nice guns. The whole batch was sold for a single 20 dollar bill in the parking lot of a bar in Jackson, MS. Of course, I'd like to have any of them back, but I really miss that .410.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
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