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Help me ID the rifle...

BigDanSBigDanS Senior MemberMiami, FL almost in the USA ;)Posts: 6,992 Senior Member


This is my father circa 1943/44 in training on Miami Beach as part of the US Army Air Corp prior to shipping out to England as a bombardier.  I believe the rifle is an ‘03 Springfield training rifle.  A number “6” plus some other writing can be seen on the butt stock of the rifle.  Any info appreciated.  He passed on Dec 23, 1995.  He was about 27 yrs old in this picture.

D
"A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:

Replies

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,069 Senior Member
    edited November 2019 #2
    Looks like a P17. 



    :better pic:
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    edited November 2019 #3
    Not an ‘03.  It’s a United States Rifle, cal .30, Model of 1917.
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Miami, FL almost in the USA ;)Posts: 6,992 Senior Member
    I believe you are correct, a ‘17.  Drill rifle?  Non functional?
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • StenfieldStenfield Member PennsylvaniaPosts: 41 Member
    Definitely a P-17. Not much mistaking that dog leg bolt .  I believe if it was a drill rifle it would have a stripe red or white sometimes both painted around the action at least all the D.P. 17s and 14s I have seen have .
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Western PAPosts: 8,234 Senior Member
    Model 1917, M1917 or M17, (the US never made a "pattern" P anything except for the brits.) The stock paint is because it was shelved in a arsenal for a long time. It is a ww1 rifle drug out to give to your dad for training.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,698 Senior Member
    BigDanS said:
    I believe you are correct, a ‘17.  Drill rifle?  Non functional?
    An M1917 for sure.  Probably fully functional.  World War ONE was marked by scrounging up ANYTHING that could shoot for second, third, fourth... echelon troops and police at home in order to free up all the latest and greatest infantry arms for the front.  This consisted mostly of the previous two generations of infantry rifles and lots of commercial stuff you don't normally think of as military arms (Winchester lever actions and such).  

    WWII was kind of the same way, with WWI hardware serving heavily in that role.  Even air crew trainees probably had SOME time on the rifle range - - in case the Japanese invaded the west coast, the contacts in North Africa got too close, or Hitler tried to invade England again, it's good to make sure that everybody sort of knows which end of a rifle is the dangerous one.

    Deactivated parade guns would mostly have been for specialized drill teams or cycled out to youth organizations, veterans groups, etc..., and probably - I'm guessing - more of a political correctness practice of later years.  
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    BigDanS said:
    I believe you are correct, a ‘17.  Drill rifle?  Non functional?
    Doubtful.  As has been said, we were not putting too many functional rifles out of commission during the war.  If it shot, it stayed that way.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Western PAPosts: 8,234 Senior Member
    I would also venture to guess that the whole demilled "drill rifle" thing started later. In that era, people were not afraid of firearms.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • AntonioAntonio Senior Member Lima, PeruPosts: 2,986 Senior Member
    Very nice pic!
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Miami, FL almost in the USA ;)Posts: 6,992 Senior Member
    It came to mind, what is my father doing out of the barracks with a rifle for a picture like this.  If caught, one might think the drill sergeant would have roasted him for inappropriate use of the rifle.  I can hear the drill sergeant now, " What the f--- do you think you are doing!"  Fill in the blanks....

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 28,069 Senior Member
    My .404 Jeffery is made from a 1917 action I believe. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Manistee Natl ForestPosts: 18,287 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    My .404 Jeffery is made from a 1917 action I believe. 
    It's a very strong action that was used for a lot of custom builds for safari rifles back in the day...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,772 Senior Member
    Certainly looks like a M1917
    At the time of the American entry in to World War II, the American Army was still issuing the M1917 to Chemical Mortarmen. Perhaps due to rifle shortages at the start of the war, the M1917 was also issued to artillerymen early in the war, and both mortarmen and artillerymen carried the M1917 in North Africa. Otherwise, before and during World War II, stored rifles were reconditioned for use issue as reserve, training, and Lend-Lease weapons; these rifles are identified by having refinished metal (sandblasted and Parkerized) and sometimes replacement wood (often birch). Many were sent to Britain for use by the British Home Guard. These were prominently marked with red paint to avoid confusion with the earlier P14 that used different ammunition. Others were supplied to the Nationalist Chinese forces and to the Free French, both of which can occasionally be seen in photographs being used in action.


    That rifle got around. Nice pic. I think I'll try to clean it up a bit tomorrow.
    http://www.thepaulkfamily.com/gunweb/m1917eddystone.htm


    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • Big Al1Big Al1 Senior Member Panama City, Fl.Posts: 8,689 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    My .404 Jeffery is made from a 1917 action I believe. 
    A-Square built their monster magnums on the 1914/1917 actions! The first Weatherbys were also built on those actions!
    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=.577+tyrannosaur&&view=detail&mid=E7FA354CF9FB17A09EFEE7FA354CF9FB17A09EFE&&FORM=VRDGAR

  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,772 Senior Member
    It looks like the number 6 is followed by the number 360. I'm guessing these rifles were used for training and belonged to a 6th Battalion or Regiment of the Army.
    It seems like this photo might be even earlier. Maybe, around 1941-42 based on the history I've read.
    On June 20, 1941, the Army Air Corps' existence as the primary air arm of the U.S. Army changed to that of solely being the training and logistics elements of the then-new United States Army Air Forces

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Air_Corps

    Certainly, very interesting history in this photo.


    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Between Ft Lauderdale and MiamiPosts: 12,561 Senior Member
    Seems like the question about the rifle is answered, so I will just add that you look a lot like your Dad
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Miami, FL almost in the USA ;)Posts: 6,992 Senior Member
    Spk said:
    It looks like the number 6 is followed by the number 360. I'm guessing these rifles were used for training and belonged to a 6th Battalion or Regiment of the Army.
    It seems like this photo might be even earlier. Maybe, around 1941-42 based on the history I've read.
    On June 20, 1941, the Army Air Corps' existence as the primary air arm of the U.S. Army changed to that of solely being the training and logistics elements of the then-new United States Army Air Forces

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Air_Corps

    Certainly, very interesting history in this photo.


    I know my father’s induction record and history.  He was a machinist in Cleveland and had a valuable job and was already 26 years old in 1942.  His entry into the war came late, and after training he only flew about 6 sorties into Germany before the war in Europe was over. Their training on Miami Beach was odd , but I am sure it was winter 1943 /44, which is when this photo was taken.  When the war in Europe was over he was over he shipped to California in preparation for entering the Pacific theater.  The war ended before he was assigned, and he was released from his service in 1945 and returned to his family in Cleveland.

    Thanks all for the background.  I will need to find his Military records to see where he was assigned.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,754 Senior Member
    Spk said:
    It looks like the number 6 is followed by the number 360. I'm guessing these rifles were used for training and belonged to a 6th Battalion or Regiment of the Army.
    It seems like this photo might be even earlier. Maybe, around 1941-42 based on the history I've read.
    On June 20, 1941, the Army Air Corps' existence as the primary air arm of the U.S. Army changed to that of solely being the training and logistics elements of the then-new United States Army Air Forces

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Air_Corps

    Certainly, very interesting history in this photo.


    Probably 1942 or later.  Remington if it is a Rem made only about 1200 03a3s in 1941.  In 1944 they tapered off, making about the same number...maybe a few more.  You can look up Remington 03a3 and get an idea.  SC made fewer overall...they were, after all, a typewriter company.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • SPQR70ADSPQR70AD Posts: 8 New Member
    that bolt knob on that rifle is over the trigger. a P17 knob was not a flaw as I see it. those rifles were to heavy to long awkward cocked on closing sluggish action. never knew what all the hoopla behind them was about
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