Home Main Category General Firearms

Hey Zee...

2

Replies

  • Uncle FesterUncle Fester Senior Member Posts: 1,568 Senior Member
    Big Al1 said:
    I can give you a little back ground on that!! Most of the old battle rifles were actually zeroed at about 250 yards. The old sights like on an 03, '98, Krag, 1884 trap door were very complicated and usually required about a week of training just to figure out how to use them properly! Some Enfields had a volley sight for lobbing rounds at long range!
    See the source image

    My BIL, the one with two Johnsons, has an original training manual for the trap door. It instructs, with pictures, how to hit infantry at 1000 yards by aiming aim at the heads of the horse mounted troops!!
    But I see where your going here!! This would be an excellent experiment for Zee, and he could even do it bare foot!!
    Your BIL has two Johnson’s?
  • Big Al1Big Al1 Senior Member Posts: 8,501 Senior Member
    Johnson automatic rifles! Where you been!!😎
  • N454casullN454casull Member Posts: 671 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    A few years back a couple friends and I took a CMP M1 Garand and hit the 600yrd line. We put up some gallon milk jugs and had at it. Over the course of the time shooting all three of us managed to hit a milk jug. I don’t remember how many shots it took any one person but we all did it. 

    I would imagine if you shot that gun a lot and got familiar with its ballistics you could get pretty close pretty often on a man size target. 

    This was also off of a bench with a sandbag type rest. The jugs were on a high burn and it was relatively easy to spot your own misses in the dirt/dust. Basically we walked it in.  

    Also this was when I still had “young” eyes and could see that far. 
    We’re you fiddling around making adjustments with the sights or just taking some Kentucky windage/elevation?  One of my goals is to get good with the battle sights on whichever gun I end up picking for this endeavor so I can make hits repeatable.
    If I remember correctly we dialed the sights to the 600yrd mark, but then yes it was Kentucky windage. It took us a few shots to get there but most all of them were pretty close, like close enough that if it was me being shot at I would get out of there very quickly. 

    I do truly believe if a guy has good eyes and takes the time to get it all dialed in and practiced you could be real dangerous at the distance. 
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    A few years back a couple friends and I took a CMP M1 Garand and hit the 600yrd line. We put up some gallon milk jugs and had at it. Over the course of the time shooting all three of us managed to hit a milk jug. I don’t remember how many shots it took any one person but we all did it. 

    I would imagine if you shot that gun a lot and got familiar with its ballistics you could get pretty close pretty often on a man size target. 

    This was also off of a bench with a sandbag type rest. The jugs were on a high burn and it was relatively easy to spot your own misses in the dirt/dust. Basically we walked it in.  

    Also this was when I still had “young” eyes and could see that far. 
    We’re you fiddling around making adjustments with the sights or just taking some Kentucky windage/elevation?  One of my goals is to get good with the battle sights on whichever gun I end up picking for this endeavor so I can make hits repeatable.
    If I remember correctly we dialed the sights to the 600yrd mark, but then yes it was Kentucky windage. It took us a few shots to get there but most all of them were pretty close, like close enough that if it was me being shot at I would get out of there very quickly. 

    I do truly believe if a guy has good eyes and takes the time to get it all dialed in and practiced you could be real dangerous at the distance. 
    Cool!  Thanks for the info and I agree with you.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    edited December 2019 #36
    zorba said:
    ...and he could even do it bare foot!!
    In heels.
    My jungle carbine is sighted out to 800 yards, and as Al notes - the Brits were noted for their long range volleys.

    For me with my eyes, "Long range volleys are long winded follies."  And Zee is right, if you can see it you can hit it. I just can't see that far anymore. Things get blurry in the sight picture much past 100 yards. I still seem to have better vision than a lot of people, which makes me think half the world is blind.

    But I believe that if you can see your target and things in your sight picture are clear enough to put the front sight inside the rear sight and both sights and your target are clear, whatever range is your max for that is how for you should be fairly reliably hit things, if you know your drops and can read wind.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,983 Senior Member
    My eyesight is just terrible - always has been. I was that nerdy kid with the coke bottle bottom glasses in 1st grade!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,326 Senior Member
    Realistically, most of these were 2-4 MOA rifles with some being manufactured as "happy accidents" doing better, and others coming from some "Paradise of Murphy's Law" doing worse.

    The inverted V rear and barleycorn front sight combination of most Mausers is a real tragedy of optical misfortune.  The super narrow post and notch of the 1903 Springfield is great if you're under 25 (at least it gave you windage).  The SMLE gave you a GREAT set of open sights except for the fact that they went cheap in 1916 and took the windage knob off.  ALL of them suffer from putting the rear sight in the middle of the barrel instead of back by your eye.  The P14/1917/No.4 are the real potential champs - if you're including peep sights in this conversation

    Given all of that, and the rifle being decently in spec, I'd consider any of them a legitimate, single shot threat to 600 yards in the hands of someone with a clue.  There are of course exceptions where the one rare fluke of manufacturing success ends up in the hands of the even rarer Hathcockian "Rifle Whisperer".  There absolutely are bone stock surplus rifles that shoot single MOA with a good batch of service grade ammo.  While that theoretically gets you to 1000 yards, now you're getting into the mechanical/optical problem of your aiming devices appearing significantly bigger than what you're aiming at. 

    I believe it was Herbert McBride (maybe John Plaster) who wrote about using the intersecting corner of your scope's crosshairs as your aiming point at extreme distances rather than the intersection itself so you could still see your target.  The obvious way to deal with this for open sights would be to set the sights for a longer distance and hold under.

    So here we get to where a lot of your "wild anecdotal stuff in war accounts" probably comes from:  in an army of millions, most of whom never held a rifle before being drafted and mentally struggle with even the concept of a ballistic arc and are more concerned with getting drunk, laid, or home alive than shooting, you have one guy with pre-service shooting experience; who's had time to think about this stuff; who's begged, borrowed or stolen to get himself one of the guns that REALLY shoots; who, by the way, also happens to have 20/15 eyesight and a finely honed killer instinct.  That guy is mechanically, in theory, capable of hits to 2000 yards 50-70% of the time, and incidentally, can load and cycle a bolt action a lot faster than his peers.  His peers will go home to tell stories of the superman they can barely comprehend.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
  • GilaGila Posts: 1,887 Senior Member
    Carlos Hathcocks Feather  Warehouse 13 Artifact Database Wiki  FANDOM powered by Wikia
    No good deed goes unpunished...
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    ‘96 Swedish Mauser
    6.5x55 Swede


    ‘03 Springfield
    .30-06 Springfield



    Can you do it?
    Yes you can. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Details man details!!!!!  700 yards?!?!?!?!
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    edited December 2019 #43
    Needed to make some brass for the Springfield so I took some Lake City 173gr Match ammo to make some brass. 

    700yrds

    Had my buddy spotting for me. Took me 3 rounds to get on target. 8 total rounds. 3 hits (painted over the high one) with a couple near misses due to wind. 

    Switched to the 96 Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55 Swede and my 160gr RN handloads. Got a second round hit at 700 yrds (middle left) and called it good as I didn’t want to waste my handloads. 



    Not saying it’s easy. But, I wouldn’t stand in front of someone with one of these rifles. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Needed to make some brass for the Springfield so I took some Lake City 173gr Match ammo to make some brass. 

    700yrds

    Had my buddy spotting for me. Took me 3 rounds to get on target. 8 total rounds. 3 hits (painted over the high one) with a couple near misses due to wind. 

    Switched to the 96 Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55 Swede and my 160gr RN handloads. Got a second round hit at 700 yrds (middle left) and called it good as I didn’t want to waste my handloads. 



    Not saying it’s easy. But, I wouldn’t stand in front of someone with one of these rifles. 
    Awesome!  This is exactly what I wanted to know!  THANKS!!!!
  • AntonioAntonio Senior Member Posts: 2,986 Senior Member
    Nice shooting!

    As I said, those trained with these rifles and sights state that "if you can see it, you can hit it". Very important to find if the ballistics of the ammo used matches the sight graduations, sprecially considering that some of them had sights originally set to use relatively heavy (around 200gr.) round nose bullets instead that the lighter more modern Spitzer ones, and not all got arsenal upgrades for such kind of projectiles.
    Also modern commercial loads aren't always loaded up to the original specifications and it will require some intensive work from the shooter to find the proper load to match the sights and their proper setting.

    Very nice rifles BTW. Those Swedish Mausers and their round are considered very accurate flat shooters. 
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    So just an educated opinion since you were recently playing.  What are the odds (or percentage of hits) you think you could get a little further?  Let’s say at 1,000 yards?
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,769 Senior Member
    If I had to guess I would say that the sights on the Sweede are set for a 140gr at about 2500 FPS.  My M96 is still set for the 160gr at something like 2200 FPS.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    mitdr774 said:
    If I had to guess I would say that the sights on the Sweede are set for a 140gr at about 2500 FPS.  My M96 is still set for the 160gr at something like 2200 FPS.
    The sights only went to “600” on the Swede. I held top of the target and about 3 feet left. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    The Springfield ladder sight I set at “700”. Held bottom of the target and about 3-4 feet left as the wind changed. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    So just an educated opinion since you were recently playing.  What are the odds (or percentage of hits) you think you could get a little further?  Let’s say at 1,000 yards?
    It wasn’t easy seeing the targets at 700 yards. 
    It would have to be a very visible target and use of a spotter. And then.......I’ve no clue. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    GunNut said:
    So just an educated opinion since you were recently playing.  What are the odds (or percentage of hits) you think you could get a little further?  Let’s say at 1,000 yards?
    It wasn’t easy seeing the targets at 700 yards. 
    It would have to be a very visible target and use of a spotter. And then.......I’ve no clue. 
    Ok you just answered my question indirectly.  If it was difficult seeing the target at 700 I would assume almost impossible at a 1,000 since I’m interested in “combat effectiveness” you’d be looking at best at a standing guy dressed in some sort of BDU or muted clothing, not a 6’ blaze orange circle.

    Thanks!
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    edited December 2019 #52
    My buddy who was spotting for me was like, “Alright, you are At 3:00 on the target. Come 6 inches left.”

    ”Dude!  I can barely see the target!!!  How the hell am I gonna tell what 6” looks like!!??
    😁

    iIt wasn’t the target so much. They were white and I could see the white “blob”. The main problem was the coarseness of the front sight at that distance. 

    6 inches was hard to differentiate with the sights. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    My buddy who was spotting for me was like, “Alright, you are At 3:00 on the target. Come 6 inches left.”

    ”Dude!  I can barely see the target!!!  How the hell am I gonna tell what 6” looks like!!??
    😁

    iIt wasn’t the target so much. They were white and I could see the white “blob”. The main problem was the coarseness of the front sight at that distance. 

    6 inches was hard to differentiate with the sights. 
    At 700 yards?!?!?!?  I would freaking think so!!!!! 🤣

    So now you got me wondering about sights.  I was just checking an ‘03 locally, I might have to look a little closer...  

    Thanks for continued humoring me with this.  It’s been skulking around in the back of my head for a while.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    Yeah. Twist my arm and make me shoot guns. 

    Oh the humanity!!
    😎
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Sorry for taking advantage of your weakness 😁
  • N454casullN454casull Member Posts: 671 Senior Member
    I would agree on the “seeing the target” comment. When we did the milk jugs they were nice and white on a very dark brown berm. Made them easy to see and see misses. We shot mid day and I don’t remember there being any wind at all. The berm was slightly up hill and very dry making misses easy to see. 

    Like I said 600yrds very doable and Zee proved 700yrds but 1000yrds I just think it would be very hard to see the target and see if you hit or were even close. 
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    I would agree on the “seeing the target” comment. When we did the milk jugs they were nice and white on a very dark brown berm. Made them easy to see and see misses. We shot mid day and I don’t remember there being any wind at all. The berm was slightly up hill and very dry making misses easy to see. 

    Like I said 600yrds very doable and Zee proved 700yrds but 1000yrds I just think it would be very hard to see the target and see if you hit or were even close. 
    I agree.  I targeted (pun) Zee because he is a known commodity. He’s an excellent rifle shot and has good eyesight.  So I figured he’d give me the “edge of the envelope“, so to speak.  

    I think I’ll start at 200 yards to get my game on and work my way to 300.  Then I run out of space in my local range and will look to find some alternatives within reasonable distance so I can build up from there.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    300 is relatively easy. You should have fun at that range. 

    Still recommend a spotter. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    300 is relatively easy. You should have fun at that range. 

    Still recommend a spotter. 
    Yeah I’ll have to convince the better half to come out with me.  It’s good she has not been to the range in a while.
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Spk said:
    Here's an appropriate 1000 yard target 😁

    🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Sign In or Register to comment.
Magazine Cover

GET THE MAGAZINE Subscribe & Save

Temporary Price Reduction

SUBSCRIBE NOW

Give a Gift   |   Subscriber Services

PREVIEW THIS MONTH'S ISSUE

GET THE NEWSLETTER Join the List and Never Miss a Thing.

Get the top Guns & Ammo stories delivered right to your inbox every week.

Advertisement