Texas church shooting

BamaakII

Surprised this has not been mentioned.  For those that want to see the video its graphic.  I count at least 5 or 6 guys coming forward with guns.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=a7Egb_1577654583

Zee

This is Self Defense. Why in the political forum?

Just curious. 

BamaakII

Sorry thought I put it in 2A forum.  Mods can you move it?

I did put it 2A as intended.  I guess since its a new Texas law and every politician that mentioned it, failed to acknowledge what really happened a just spouted anti gun crap I thought of 2A/politics. Except the Texas governor.  

Zee

Members of my church interested and responsible for such things have been discussing this incident all day today. 

The things that were done right and the things that were done wrong. 

Zee

Well, I’d like to actually discuss the defensive aspects of this incident. 

If you guys want to turn it political......enjoy. 

BamaakII

Church security teams training has become an industry.   I see ads for it all the time.  Some guy comes and evaluates your church then trains the voluntary carriers who are now security.

BamaakII

Moving to self defense
  Mods please lock or delete this thread

BamaakII

Surprised this has not been mentioned.  For those that want to see the video its graphic.  I count at least 5 or 6 guys coming forward with guns.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=a7Egb_1577654583

earlyagain

Saw it on the news. Good ending. Too bad the ending wasn't in time to save the innocent victim. Maybe a discussion can help a future incident to be resolved faster.

Zee

Security measures previously put in place should have “flagged” the individual before he made it that far into the church. 

Obviously, every church is an entity unto itself. The number of parishioners attending on a regular basis and the general weather for local attire. 

My church has retired and active duty LE/Military, along with others with firearms skill and CC Permits voluntarily taking responsibility for security. 

All doors and foyer are covered with respective individuals. Polite and blending in with everyone else. 

Regular members and attire are noticed and anyone unknown is welcome but noticed. Pointed out and observed. Not in a rude or of putting way.  But, noted and..........shadowed?
The individual in the video would have assuredly been confronted. By attire alone. It seems in the video that he was. But, how he made it so far into the sanctuary is unknown to me. I can speculate but all I can do is assume. I do not know the facts. 

It is highly doubtful that he would have made it that far into my church without a greeting or conversation by someone so tasked. 

Do I think they responded accordingly? Yes. Do I think they weer behind the power curve.  Obviously. 

We learn from others mistakes. 

BamaakII

I think the grey haired gentleman who responded did an excellent job.  Does not look like his first rodeo.  He did not hesitate or flinch, just acted.  Seems they had a plan in place.  May not have been sufficient but it could have been a lot worse too.

Zee

Agreed. 

But, if we do not critique and learn from mistakes, we will never improve. 

Folks died. Something went wrong. How do we correct and improve upon that mistake?

Zee

The man that stood up in an attempt to draw made an obvious mistake and got smoked for it. 

The second man in close proximity failed to react accordingly and was smoked as well. 

The only correct response and reaction was from the ONE man who had his crap together. The guy who fired one shot from a further distance than most old dudes here (Sam and Gene) think that all defensive shootings occurred at close proximity. Someone needs to buy that man a beer for the luckiest shot in his life or the the time and effort he gave to acquire the skill he put into drawing and firing effective fire at further than give me your damn wallet distance. 

Props to THAT guy!

BamaakII

I wonder if the guy he interacted with was part of the security team.  He was posted by the door like he may be.

BamaakII

If you were victim #1, what would you have done differently?  Try and draw from seated position?  Try and tackle him or something before he got the gun up?  Real question not being smart.

Zee

BamaakII said:

If you were victim #1, what would you have done differently?  Try and draw from seated position?  Try and tackle him or something before he got the gun up?  Real question not being smart.

Drawn sitting and engaged from sitting or engaged while standing and moving to my left to offline from other innocents. 

Zee

BamaakII said:

I wonder if the guy he interacted with was part of the security team.  He was posted by the door like he may be.

There appears to be no door there. He is apparently over halfway down the sanctuary at a bend in the pews. 

Someone (victim #2) is talking to him and he raises the shotgun. 

Victim #1 stands and does a piss poor draw from concealment. Making himself the focus of attention and the first to catch a load of shot. All while Victim #2 stands flat footed within reach of the threat and because of the lack of action, catches the second load of shot damn near point blank. 

Indecision kills. 

So does piss poor performance. 

Reality sucks. 

Zee

For all you folks who only think bad stuff happens at close proximity from some crack head wanting your wallet............how far do you think this shot was?

Jermanator

My guess would be around 35 feet.

Bigslug

Zee's pretty much dittoed my take on it.  Victim #1 could have been A LOT sneakier.  Victim #2. . .hard for me to say if he had much in the way of options.  Going "boneless" and falling to the ground while Victim #1 had the perp's attention at the very least.

It looks like the "one and done" shot got the perp in the head - at least his hoodie is making a movement like it's catching an exiting bullet.  Using the tip of my pinky as an expedient mil dot, I'd guess that round was fired from about 10-12 yards with NOTHING questionable about the result.  Yep.  Get that guy a beer.

Bigslug

As for the political aspects - probably worth some time for us to see how the various news outlets present it.

BamaakII

I'd say 18 yards based on 6 pews about 3 yards apart
 apart each.  Good shot under stress.

Accipiter

BamaakII said:

If you were victim #1, what would you have done differently?  Try and draw from seated position?  Try and tackle him or something before he got the gun up?  Real question not being smart.

BamaakII said:

If you were victim #1, what would you have done differently?  Try and draw from seated position?  Try and tackle him or something before he got the gun up?  Real question not being smart.

Carry his gun in a fashion that he can get to it easier.  Carry so he can get to it from a seated position.  Practice presentation and first shot accuracy.  

Muzzle control was was a little scary from the guys coming in after.  I don’t know if fingers were off triggers, but muzzles were on good guys.

41magnut

I do not discount any of the critiques of the video. 

We learn from the after action analysis of any incident, be they auto or aviation accidents, shootings, what have you.

My bottom line,
A good guy with a gun stopped a bad guy with a gun. 

Jermanator

On the 2A front, I haven't seen anything critical so far. Here is from CNN...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/30/us/guns-legal-texas-church/index.html

RugerFan

BamaakII said:

I think the grey haired gentleman who responded did an excellent job.  Does not look like his first rodeo.  He did not hesitate or flinch, just acted.  Seems they had a plan in place.  May not have been sufficient but it could have been a lot worse too.

According to a Twitter account my son sent me this parishioner is the owner of a shooting academy. It may or may not be true.

earlyagain

Being able to take aim un-observed would be best. Having a greeter at the door well being covered by someone positioned discretely might be a good straggety.

Real life has obligations. Not everyone can or will be fully prepared for such things. Not everyone will be at their full capability when timing delivers disaster. Anyone that assumes their personal skill would elevate their performance above those unfortunate victims at all times regardless of timing is thinking foolishly IMO.. Better to have a collective straggety that seeks to over come individual short comings.

Gene L

Good response.  Not typical of my scenario of SD (close and quick) but it worked well in this situation.  I wonder what weapons the good guys used.  Also wonder what the bg's motivation was.  Checking news reports, neither his identity nor motivation hasn't been released.

GunNut

Zee said:

For all you folks who only think bad stuff happens at close proximity from some crack head wanting your wallet............how far do you think this shot was?

Executed perfectly.  That was NOT a "lucky" luck shot.  I have NO idea what the first guy was thinking trying to execute that clumsy draw while having a shotgun pointed at him.  I think he actually precipitated the starting of the shootout and was directly responsible for the second guy, who just sat on the wrong seat, getting shot.

BamaakII

Beto and Bloomberg immediately called for gun control laws

Jermanator

That figures. I am not sure how either of their gun control schemes would have prevented this. Of what I know, the shooter had a regular ole' shotgun-- used by the likes of Clinton, Gore, Biden, Obama, Kerry, and millions of Elmer Fudds across the nation.