The man that stood up in an attempt to draw made an obvious mistake and got smoked for it.
The second man in close proximity failed to react accordingly and was smoked as well.
The only correct response and reaction was from the ONE man who had his crap together. The guy who fired one shot from a further distance than most old dudes here (Sam and Gene) think that all defensive shootings occurred at close proximity. Someone needs to buy that man a beer for the luckiest shot in his life or the the time and effort he gave to acquire the skill he put into drawing and firing effective fire at further than give me your damn wallet distance.
Props to THAT guy!
Looked to me like V1 had the mindset that he would brandish and that was that.... after the Biden safe gun came out that option was over. V2, looks as much like he was in the wrong place and was just the second target. Was he an usher or a carrier? Dont know.My guess is he was a bystander.
My guess at distance is 11 yards min on a moving target head shot.
V1 wasnt ready to shoot. V2 was not a shooter. Good Guy was ready, although he did have the benefit of time, he still shoots more than draw and empty drills.
It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
As for the political aspects - probably worth some time for us to see how the various news outlets present it.
I did not even see this mentioned on the local news last night. This morning some local idiot said something like: <Yes the bad guy was stopped by a good guy with a gun, but if guns were illegal it never would have happened>
I had to change the channel or I would have looked stupid yelling at the TV
Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
I'm glad they praticed drills at that church. The main difference between drills and real life... Drills are announced and relatively safe.
BG was some kind of transient. Good riddance.
Congrats again to this guy.
Reserve deputy and shooting instructor.
The hardest thing to teach anyone is to remain level headed under fire.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
He's a former FBI agent, he's a retired cop, He's a former reserve deputy, he's a retiredMavy Seal...blah blah blah...Do any of you notice the trend every time this happens the good guy with a gun is anything but a civilian who is proficient with firearms?
The media (social and otherwise) do anything the can to portray the civilian shooter as incompetent fools...
Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
Maybe we should just go vy his own words if someone can find and post them. I saw them on the news. He said something to the effect that he intends to fight back against evil.
Good guy with a gun at the right place at the right time beats, by far, a 911 call.
6 seconds......start to finish.
I'm not going to Monday Morning QB this at all.
Mike
ETA....I live in Colorado. We've had our fair share of crazies shooting up places over the past few years. LEO sometimes arrive before the carnage is over.....and when they do, an extreme reluctance to engage seems the norm.
God Bless Texas.
"Walking away seems to be a lost art form." N454casull
Okay, Jay, YOU write the headline. Make it interesting.
Initial posts regarding this situation called him a former FBI agent, but I believe most sources backed off on that. The fact that he had firearms training is a fact that is interesting, the fact that he trained others is important to the story. Without those and other details, there wouldn't be a story. Then I guess the media would be charged with ignoring this important story. "Civilian proficient with firearms takes down shooter" leaves a lot to the imagination. Details lead to understanding.
Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
So interesting observation I have not seen anyone make yet. The deacon, victim #2, takes a shotgun blast at point blank and survives at least until the end of the video(I know he eventually dies). Perp takes handgun bullet to head lights out. Shot placement matters, even with a shotgun at point blank range.
Secondary obsevation. No one seeks to offer assistance to the deacon. Everyone is focused on victim #1 on the floor. Doubt it would have helped but it isn’t until his daughter gets there at the end that he receives any aid. Must have been a tunnel vision thing and the Deacon was sitting up so maybe they thought he was ok.
Apparently free thought is punished, and conformity is required, while peckerless cowards run the show.
The man that stood up in an attempt to draw made an obvious mistake and got smoked for it.
The second man in close proximity failed to react accordingly and was smoked as well.
The only correct response and reaction was from the ONE man who had his crap together. The guy who fired one shot from a further distance than most old dudes here (Sam and Gene) think that all defensive shootings occurred at close proximity. Someone needs to buy that man a beer for the luckiest shot in his life or the the time and effort he gave to acquire the skill he put into drawing and firing effective fire at further than give me your damn wallet distance.
Props to THAT guy!
One of the victims appears to have been an usher. Given the rapid escalation and point blank shotgun attack, I don’t think he could have saved himself.
The other victim had probably never trained at drawing from a sitting position. I haven’t, but will.
I've been shot at in a situation almost like that. 3 dead, happened so fast you couldn't see it coming, and was over so fast you weren't totally sure it really happened, except for the ringing in your ears.
I hit the floor PDQ. That was the only option I had.
You never know. But I like this guys response.
Mike
"Walking away seems to be a lost art form." N454casull
It takes a brave and courageous person to stand and confront someone pointing a shotgun.
Drawing and firing unseen would have been better obviously. There was no place to evade or escape or go for position. Training and practice may have saved his life. Timidity or delay might have saved him too.
Okay, Jay, YOU write the headline. Make it interesting.
Initial posts regarding this situation called him a former FBI agent, but I believe most sources backed off on that. The fact that he had firearms training is a fact that is interesting, the fact that he trained others is important to the story. Without those and other details, there wouldn't be a story. Then I guess the media would be charged with ignoring this important story. "Civilian proficient with firearms takes down shooter" leaves a lot to the imagination. Details lead to understanding.
Two things Gene... First is the media's habit of, while not knowing the facts and not caring to do the research, making stuff up....nothing recent about that...look what they did to Richard Jewell...
Second, the anti-gun media is desperate to get the message out that the police are there to protect you, therefore we have no need to protect ourselves.
Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
What I keep telling the wife and sons is, 6 seconds, you need to think about what you are going to do long before some event happens. I told them draw your gun, hit the floor, or exit a door, get a move on.
I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
What I keep telling the wife and sons is, 6 seconds, you need to think about what you are going to do long before some event happens. I told them draw your gun, hit the floor, or exit a door, get a move on.
Indecision kills.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later get squish just like grape. -- Mr. Miyagi
If you're gonna engage -- Engage!
If you're gonna hit the deck, Hit the Deck!
If you're gonna stand up and kinda engage...
I do feel bad for the family members left behind... May they find peace 🙏🙏
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
"Two things Gene... First is the media's habit of, while not knowing the facts and not caring to do the research, making stuff up....nothing recent about that...look what they did to Richard Jewell...
Second, the anti-gun media is desperate to get the message out that the police are there to protect you, therefore we have no need to protect ourselves."
I agree with the first sentence, but not necessarily with the second. I watch only Fox News and don't see an anti-gun bias there. The media is powerful but if gun sales are any indication, their efforts fall far short. I haven't watched any other news, so I can't comment on their intentions.
One thing this video has affected me is I carried my pistol to eat out with my family last night.
Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
Ive been thinking about this thread as much as the incident discussed.
I think some of the verbage in the beginning in reference to the victims is un-necessarily irreverent. Im not comfortable with it and needed to say something.
The man that stopped the threat had the benifit of the murderer being distracted. The two victims had the benifit of nothing except their own courage. They had the blink of an eye to react under the watching eyes of a murderer, and the gaping muzzle of a shotgun. One made a fumbling mistake. In his case it was not indecision that was the mistake. The other hesistated.
In both cases these murder victims have my thoughts and their families my prayers. They made the same kind of mistakes I may have made myself. Hopefully people analysing the story and seeing the mistakes can better prepare themselves as a result. Hopefully with reverent memory of the courage of those lost as well as the actions of those that successfully stopped this.
Linefinder, about 11 years ago after a shooting (I think it was the College one in Va.) my agency decided to do a drill....summer and schools were closed. We intended a full-bore approach including skills we didn't have, like hostage negotiation (although I'm trained as such) and bomb squad from UGA.
I found a book on Special Ops. Although this book was intended for the operators and was based on suggestions for offense. In it, I read that the chances of success in a raid was in the first 12 minutes (IIRC, no more than 15 minutes.) What I did then was develop a response to interfere with that 12 minute where the gunman is the only one armed. I wrote an SOP response for a school shooting for my unit, which was an immediate response...disrupt the BG's plans as soon as possible. Called it Plan Sierra.
I say that to say this. Coordinating with the chief of police at UGA, we discussed the plan about his response to an active school shooting. His response was startlingly inept....he said if they had a school shooting at UGA, they would organize a SWAT team to confront the shooter(s). When asked how long it would take to do so, he said 15 minutes. A horrible plan, that would allow a shooter to continue without interruption until an armed response could be organized. When this was brought up, he said his chief interest was going home alive in the evening. I found this inadequate at the least, and while it might have been the SOP at the time (the chief was or should have been) up on all established policies. Additionally, colleges and school officials should have discussed the response, but apparently they didn't. In my view, since most school shootings had been with one or two shooters, immediate confrontation stood the best chance of success.
I think this is the standard response for school shootings now, I'm sure others came to the same conclusion. Not always done, however. Reference the Florida LEO who stood outside while an asshole killed children; following his SOP, I guess.
This UGA police chief is now running for sheriff in this county. I will do anything in my power to see him lose the election.
Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
It has been said that Wyatt Earp stood perfectly still during the OK coral fight. Except for his gun hand of course. Everyone else was ducking and diving for cover. Everyone else also got shot.
... The man that stopped the threat had the benifit of the murderer being distracted. The two victims had the benifit of nothing except their own courage. They had the blink of an eye to react under the watching eyes of a murderer, and the gaping muzzle of a shotgun. One made a fumbling mistake. In his case it was not indecision that was the mistake. The other hesistated. ...
This is the nature of Law Enforcement. If you're lucky, you'll at least know a little bit about what's going on beforehand. It's a good place to be.
If you're unlucky, you'll have a blink of an eye to process an entire decision cycle that might save your life.
Take a "routine" traffic stop. You might pull someone over for a tail light out. You might have even decided to let the guy off with a warning... (The vehicle pulls over)... Inside, the man might be a fleeing felon that believes he's busted but has decided not to go back to prison. He makes the decision to kill you when you get to the window.
The blink of an eye is all you'll have to save your own life. Deciding on a contingency plan beforehand is probably gonna be the only thing you'll have going for you when things go bad. Four things you'll need: Mindset, Tactics, Skill and Weapon. Things to do before any of this occurs: Forethought (Scenarios), practice and repetition.
It seems to me that Jack Wilson had all of these things going for him and a little bit of knowledge and time going in.
The victims seem to be trying to process the entirety of the situation before deciding on a course of action. Not a good place to be. I have no doubt of their bravery but their reaction time placed them in jeopardy.
Forethought, practice, repetition. Decide beforehand and stick to the plan.
jmo
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
... The man that stopped the threat had the benifit of the murderer being distracted. The two victims had the benifit of nothing except their own courage. They had the blink of an eye to react under the watching eyes of a murderer, and the gaping muzzle of a shotgun. One made a fumbling mistake. In his case it was not indecision that was the mistake. The other hesistated. ...
.........
The blink of an eye is all you'll have to save your own life.
............The victims seem to be trying to process the entirety of the situation before deciding on a course of action. Not a good place to be. I have no doubt of their bravery but their reaction time placed them in jeopardy.
Forethought, practice, repetition. Decide beforehand and stick to the plan.
jmo
I agree. The victims were behind the power curve and trying to come up with a plan when they should have been executing one. It’s what happens when you don’t train enough or plan enough so as to instinctively act when a situation unfolds in front of you.
Harshly and truthfully judging/critiquing the mistakes of others is how we prevent making them ourselves.
I hold no remorse for doing so. I want to live. If I die in a hail of gunfire some day........please learn from my mistakes.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
... The man that stopped the threat had the benifit of the murderer being distracted. The two victims had the benifit of nothing except their own courage. They had the blink of an eye to react under the watching eyes of a murderer, and the gaping muzzle of a shotgun. One made a fumbling mistake. In his case it was not indecision that was the mistake. The other hesistated. ...
.........
The blink of an eye is all you'll have to save your own life.
............The victims seem to be trying to process the entirety of the situation before deciding on a course of action. Not a good place to be. I have no doubt of their bravery but their reaction time placed them in jeopardy.
Forethought, practice, repetition. Decide beforehand and stick to the plan.
jmo
I agree. The victims were behind the power curve and trying to come up with a plan when they should have been executing one. It’s what happens when you don’t train enough or plan enough so as to instinctively act when a situation unfolds in front of you.
Harshly and truthfully judging/critiquing the mistakes of others is how we prevent making them ourselves.
I hold no remorse for doing so. I want to live. If I die in a hail of gunfire some day........please learn from my mistakes.
That’s my view of this. Just objective observation and while I have a Christian sense of loss of a good man I also have no particular emotional attachment to what happened except for what I can learn from it. Every man has his own life to live. I’m only in charge and only have to answer for mine.
... The man that stopped the threat had the benifit of the murderer being distracted. The two victims had the benifit of nothing except their own courage. They had the blink of an eye to react under the watching eyes of a murderer, and the gaping muzzle of a shotgun. One made a fumbling mistake. In his case it was not indecision that was the mistake. The other hesistated. ...
.........
The blink of an eye is all you'll have to save your own life.
............The victims seem to be trying to process the entirety of the situation before deciding on a course of action. Not a good place to be. I have no doubt of their bravery but their reaction time placed them in jeopardy.
Forethought, practice, repetition. Decide beforehand and stick to the plan.
jmo
I agree. The victims were behind the power curve and trying to come up with a plan when they should have been executing one. It’s what happens when you don’t train enough or plan enough so as to instinctively act when a situation unfolds in front of you.
Harshly and truthfully judging/critiquing the mistakes of others is how we prevent making them ourselves.
I hold no remorse for doing so. I want to live. If I die in a hail of gunfire some day........please learn from my mistakes.
That’s my view of this. Just objective observation and while I have a Christian sense of loss of a good man I also have no particular emotional attachment to what happened except for what I can learn from it. Every man has his own life to live. I’m only in charge and only have to answer for mine.
He gave his life protecting the rest of the church. Only the ushers/ security staff were harmed, and while the two ushers died they distracted the evil from the flock long enough for the last usher to neutralize him.
“No greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends”. John 15:13
It sucks for the families of those ushers, but they died protecting the flock.
To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
-Mikhail Kalashnikov
Replies
Mike
N454casull
How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
The media (social and otherwise) do anything the can to portray the civilian shooter as incompetent fools...
6 seconds......start to finish.
I'm not going to Monday Morning QB this at all.
Mike
ETA....I live in Colorado. We've had our fair share of crazies shooting up places over the past few years. LEO sometimes arrive before the carnage is over.....and when they do, an extreme reluctance to engage seems the norm.
God Bless Texas.
N454casull
Initial posts regarding this situation called him a former FBI agent, but I believe most sources backed off on that. The fact that he had firearms training is a fact that is interesting, the fact that he trained others is important to the story. Without those and other details, there wouldn't be a story. Then I guess the media would be charged with ignoring this important story. "Civilian proficient with firearms takes down shooter" leaves a lot to the imagination. Details lead to understanding.
Please see my above post.
Mike
N454casull
Secondary obsevation. No one seeks to offer assistance to the deacon. Everyone is focused on victim #1 on the floor. Doubt it would have helped but it isn’t until his daughter gets there at the end that he receives any aid. Must have been a tunnel vision thing and the Deacon was sitting up so maybe they thought he was ok.
ECHO...ECHO....echo...
Ah......One savors the hypocrisy!
Karma.........It’s a bitch.
The other victim had probably never trained at drawing from a sitting position. I haven’t, but will.
I hit the floor PDQ. That was the only option I had.
You never know. But I like this guys response.
Mike
N454casull
Drawing and firing unseen would have been better obviously. There was no place to evade or escape or go for position. Training and practice may have saved his life. Timidity or delay might have saved him too.
First is the media's habit of, while not knowing the facts and not caring to do the research, making stuff up....nothing recent about that...look what they did to Richard Jewell...
Second, the anti-gun media is desperate to get the message out that the police are there to protect you, therefore we have no need to protect ourselves.
Walk middle, sooner or later get squish just like grape. -- Mr. Miyagi
If you're gonna engage -- Engage!
If you're gonna hit the deck, Hit the Deck!
If you're gonna stand up and kinda engage...
I do feel bad for the family members left behind... May they find peace 🙏🙏
How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
First is the media's habit of, while not knowing the facts and not caring to do the research, making stuff up....nothing recent about that...look what they did to Richard Jewell...
Second, the anti-gun media is desperate to get the message out that the police are there to protect you, therefore we have no need to protect ourselves."
I agree with the first sentence, but not necessarily with the second. I watch only Fox News and don't see an anti-gun bias there. The media is powerful but if gun sales are any indication, their efforts fall far short. I haven't watched any other news, so I can't comment on their intentions.
One thing this video has affected me is I carried my pistol to eat out with my family last night.
I think some of the verbage in the beginning in reference to the victims is un-necessarily irreverent. Im not comfortable with it and needed to say something.
The man that stopped the threat had the benifit of the murderer being distracted. The two victims had the benifit of nothing except their own courage. They had the blink of an eye to react under the watching eyes of a murderer, and the gaping muzzle of a shotgun. One made a fumbling mistake. In his case it was not indecision that was the mistake. The other hesistated.
In both cases these murder victims have my thoughts and their families my prayers. They made the same kind of mistakes I may have made myself. Hopefully people analysing the story and seeing the mistakes can better prepare themselves as a result. Hopefully with reverent memory of the courage of those lost as well as the actions of those that successfully stopped this.
I found a book on Special Ops. Although this book was intended for the operators and was based on suggestions for offense. In it, I read that the chances of success in a raid was in the first 12 minutes (IIRC, no more than 15 minutes.) What I did then was develop a response to interfere with that 12 minute where the gunman is the only one armed. I wrote an SOP response for a school shooting for my unit, which was an immediate response...disrupt the BG's plans as soon as possible. Called it Plan Sierra.
I say that to say this. Coordinating with the chief of police at UGA, we discussed the plan about his response to an active school shooting. His response was startlingly inept....he said if they had a school shooting at UGA, they would organize a SWAT team to confront the shooter(s). When asked how long it would take to do so, he said 15 minutes. A horrible plan, that would allow a shooter to continue without interruption until an armed response could be organized. When this was brought up, he said his chief interest was going home alive in the evening. I found this inadequate at the least, and while it might have been the SOP at the time (the chief was or should have been) up on all established policies. Additionally, colleges and school officials should have discussed the response, but apparently they didn't. In my view, since most school shootings had been with one or two shooters, immediate confrontation stood the best chance of success.
I think this is the standard response for school shootings now, I'm sure others came to the same conclusion. Not always done, however. Reference the Florida LEO who stood outside while an asshole killed children; following his SOP, I guess.
This UGA police chief is now running for sheriff in this county. I will do anything in my power to see him lose the election.
Different times I guess.
How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
“No greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends”. John 15:13
It sucks for the families of those ushers, but they died protecting the flock.
-Mikhail Kalashnikov