So, given all the talk of profiling and prepared mindset, has anything come out about the perp's background? Been wrapped up with other stuff the last couple days.
Also a topic going forward - what is the good fellow who brought this situation to a close likely to be faced with civilly, given that it was about as clean a shoot as could be asked for captured on video? No doubt we're all on the page of tarring and feathering anyone who would suggest anything other than pinning a medal on him, but it ain't necessarily the way the world works these days.
Something tells me he'll not be portrayed as anything but a hero. Even by the anti-2A folks. Of course, if we had no guns at all, this wouldn't have happened at all.
Mike
"Walking away seems to be a lost art form." N454casull
Have your son stand behind you with the shot timer and heckle you in the process. Or your girlfriend. Or dad. Or whoever.
I think I found a new business opportunity.
Jerm: Professional Shooting Heckler
Jerm, you learned from the best. Imagine trying to shoot with these guys behind you?🤣
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
I doubt we'll see any investigative journalism from the mainstream media. Masaad Ayoob does a fine job with forensic examination of these events/incidents IMO.. It'll be some time before anything from that quarter becomes available.
I could do that shot the question is how do you practice the shot under stress. I was shot at one time and it was pretty much sheer panic.
There's at least 3 ways to induce stress into your own shooting routine, if you want to.
1) Time: Get a shot timer and shoot against the clock. A lot of folks on here know about the shot timer. Set a time limit as a goal. As you get better try to beat your previous goal. Zee mentioned it earlier.
2) Exertion: Add physical exercise to your routine. It's common practice in the military to have members in certain units run here, there and everywhere to get their heart rate up and then require them to perform certain skills tests (like shooting, among other things). You'll have to decide how much exertion is suitable for your needs.
3) Surprise: Live Fire -- Firing Line. Get at least 2-3 more friends that you "Trust" alot and have them stand "shoulder to shoulder" (about 3 feet apart). Have a target about 10 yards downrange. When the shot timer goes off, you need to get 5 good hits in 5 seconds while your buddys beside you shoot up the berm (they're not shooting at the target, they're there as a distraction). Fun exercise 👍 With practice you want to reduce your shot time down to about 2-3 seconds while getting the 5 good hits under distraction. Use only friends you really trust. There's no room for grab-ass behavior on the firing line. In time, you'll be able to include all three elements together. Time, Exertion and Surprise into your routine. It actually is possible to tune out gunfire but like anything else, it requires a lot of practice.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
Just practicing with a timer does not induce stress for me. Cause I know its just practice. Its a tool to work on technique. For me the "real" thing, when the beep goes off at a match is when it counts. I cannot imagine the really real thing with someone shooting back but I'm pretty sure urine would be involved.
I could do that shot the question is how do you practice the shot under stress. I was shot at one time and it was pretty much sheer panic.
Repetition. If you know you can make the shot, then you can make it. A head is about 10x8.Once you CAN make the shot, then make it harder. Make it smaller.
The good guy had 5 seconds or so to evaluate and position. Given that amount of time, it is a matter of being a decent shot. He had the time to process the situation before any shot was fired, and more after not as a target. At no time did he have incoming. What would he do had he been the recipient of the buckshot? I doubt the outcome would have been the same. Maybe better, maybe worse, but it wouldnt have been the same.
Given that the scenario will be different, the only thing you can do is train for the known or expected. Once you are hitting 5" at 25yds or better all the time, then blow all the air horns you want to, speed it up, slow it down, draw, whatever. Basic Jeff Cooper. Learn to shoot, then add on.
It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
Gents, I can’t express my pleasure and pride with the forum in this discussion.
I have been a member for over a decade and THIS is the most realistic/in-depth/honest self defense conversation I’ve seen us have.
Folks are suggesting/recommending/helping provide thoughts/concepts/mentalities that will help others in training and planning for situations that may one day save themselves and others.
I’m a happy camper right now.
That is all.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
I carry a full size Glock (& reload) and an AR-Pistol (& reloads) to church when I go.
Zee,
How do you carry your Glock at church?
I need to carry something other than my LCP.
I use a kydex IWB holster for appendix carry of my G23 (w/ G22 length barrel) or an OWB kydex holster for a 3:00 position carry of my G22 (w/ G35 length barrel).
I have a 27 round Magpul magazine on my front left hip.
For cover, I use an untucked button up shirt, Polo, pull-over, or vest. Weather dependent.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
People that shoot competitively in timed fire have the practice under stress. The rest of us are in the I hope I can if I have to world.
Negative!!!!
Get a shot timer. Set a standard. Practice to that standard. Raise the standard. Practices some more. Push until the wheels come off the bus.
A shot timer is a wonderful tool.
If that don’t help. Have your son stand behind you with the shot timer and heckle you in the process. Or your girlfriend. Or dad. Or whoever.
THIS!!!!! I bought my timer on a recommendation from Zee a few years back, and it has a PERMANENT space in my shooting bag. Talk about something sending a shot of adrenaline through your system. And as suggested, how do you know you are getting better if you have no measurement? Best money I've ever spent on a training device.
BTW my wife is a world class shot heckler. She's quite adept at trying new ways to screw me up at the range.
And just to reiterate something said by GunNut, “I hate profiling.....”
To this.....I have to ask, why?
Because being a minority I’ve been the “victim” of profiling and it has not been fun. But when I’m being purely objective I certainly understand the value of it...
I love you, man. But...........grow a pair. People are buttheads. It’s life. It’s the world. Minority. Priority. White. Black. Purple.
Folks will be assclowns to others and color be damned.
If I walk through a Black/Hispanic neighborhood.......you better BELIEVE they are gonna look at me sideways.
Your color means squat. My color means squat. People are mean. People are good. It’s life.
The fact that you considered yourself a victim at some point in life makes me feel sorry for you.
You want to be a victim. That’s up to you. Me? I will NEVER be a victim. I’m a participant in life.
Suck it up, buttercup.
(Written with love to you and animosity to a state of being.)
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Practicing with a timer has helped improve my speed and improve technique for certain things, for instance drawing mechanics, what to look at, the target or red dot from low ready. But those are mechanics. I can shoot the same COF 10 times in a row with the same mechanics be slower each time. Or faster. Just depends. It has taught me that the trigger is not the limiting factor. I can shoot as fast with a crappy trigger as with a $250.00 trigger. The timer don't lie. I think the best way to use it for drills is using a par time setup. Measure your drill once and set the par time to a faster speed till you can do it each time, then lower it some more. Throw in a reload too. But I do this with competition gear, I need to do it with carry gear.
And just to reiterate something said by GunNut, “I hate profiling.....”
To this.....I have to ask, why?
Because being a minority I’ve been the “victim” of profiling and it has not been fun. But when I’m being purely objective I certainly understand the value of it...
I love you, man. But...........grow a pair. People are buttheads. It’s life. It’s the world. Minority. Priority. White. Black. Purple.
Folks will be assclowns to others and color be damned.
If I walk through a Black/Hispanic neighborhood.......you better BELIEVE they are gonna look at me sideways.
Your color means squat. My color means squat. People are mean. People are good. It’s life.
The fact that you considered yourself a victim at some point in life makes me feel sorry for you.
You want to be a victim. That’s up to you. Me? I will NEVER be a victim. I’m a participant in life.
Suck it up, buttercup.
(Written with love to you and animosity to a state of being.)
Well thank you for my attitude adjustment. Point taken 🤣🤣🤣
Practicing with a timer has helped improve my speed and improve technique for certain things, for instance drawing mechanics, what to look at, the target or red dot from low ready. But those are mechanics. I can shoot the same COF 10 times in a row with the same mechanics be slower each time. Or faster. Just depends. It has taught me that the trigger is not the limiting factor. I can shoot as fast with a crappy trigger as with a $250.00 trigger. The timer don't lie. I think the best way to use it for drills is using a par time setup. Measure your drill once and set the par time to a faster speed till you can do it each time, then lower it some more. Throw in a reload too. But I do this with competition gear, I need to do it with carry gear.
That’s what I was talking about.
“Set a standard (time).”
I assumed that was a given.
Folks new to timers will find a stress involved. Once you’re used to it.......it’s a standard or goal and less of a stressor.
At that point, you have to add to the timer. Movement, multiple targets, physical stress, etc.
It’s a process, a system, a regimen. You add as you go.
You know this. Some don’t. There is no “achieve”, there is only “progress”.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
I could do that shot the question is how do you practice the shot under stress. I was shot at one time and it was pretty much sheer panic.
There's at least 3 ways to induce stress into your own shooting routine, if you want to.
1) Time: Get a shot timer and shoot against the clock. A lot of folks on here know about the shot timer. Set a time limit as a goal. As you get better try to beat your previous goal. Zee mentioned it earlier.
2) Exertion: Add physical exercise to your routine. It's common practice in the military to have members in certain units run here, there and everywhere to get their heart rate up and then require them to perform certain skills tests (like shooting, among other things). You'll have to decide how much exertion is suitable for your needs.
3) Surprise: Live Fire -- Firing Line. Get at least 2-3 more friends that you "Trust" alot and have them stand "shoulder to shoulder" (about 3 feet apart). Have a target about 10 yards downrange. When the shot timer goes off, you need to get 5 good hits in 5 seconds while your buddys beside you shoot up the berm (they're not shooting at the target, they're there as a distraction). Fun exercise 👍 With practice you want to reduce your shot time down to about 2-3 seconds while getting the 5 good hits under distraction. Use only friends you really trust. There's no room for grab-ass behavior on the firing line. In time, you'll be able to include all three elements together. Time, Exertion and Surprise into your routine. It actually is possible to tune out gunfire but like anything else, it requires a lot of practice.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
When I watch kids shoot 5 separate targets in 1.5, 1.6 seconds I'm in awe. They I get up there and do it and I think that was fast and they call out 2.1 and I'm mad. But in reality, that's faster then most people in the world do it but it's still to slow.
If a draw and shoot at 25 yards on a 6" circle in 3 seconds isn't part of your HD/SD training and practice regimen you're doing it freaking wrong.
Just as likely to get sideways in a church or walmart or grocery store as anything else. Hell, robberies and muggings happen inside structure too.
Props to the dude who domed that POS.
“There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
Just practicing with a timer does not induce stress for me. Cause I know its just practice. Its a tool to work on technique. For me the "real" thing, when the beep goes off at a match is when it counts. I cannot imagine the really real thing with someone shooting back but I'm pretty sure urine would be involved.
This is a mindset problem. Everything is on the line. It's practice for saving your kids lives. You wife. Family. Innocent people. Practice for crap you CANNOT fail at should be naturally stressful.
“There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
I carry a full size Glock (& reload) and an AR-Pistol (& reloads) to church when I go.
Zee,
How do you carry your Glock at church?
I need to carry something other than my LCP.
I use a kydex IWB holster for appendix carry of my G23 (w/ G22 length barrel) or an OWB kydex holster for a 3:00 position carry of my G22 (w/ G35 length barrel).
I have a 27 round Magpul magazine on my front left hip.
For cover, I use an untucked button up shirt, Polo, pull-over, or vest. Weather dependent.
Gents, I can’t express my pleasure and pride with the forum in this discussion.
I have been a member for over a decade and THIS is the most realistic/in-depth/honest self defense conversation I’ve seen us have.
Folks are suggesting/recommending/helping provide thoughts/concepts/mentalities that will help others in training and planning for situations that may one day save themselves and others.
I’m a happy camper right now.
That is all.
And there's more of us who are just reading and learning...
-Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
"If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
All the talk of distractions makes me think that everyone should get into some form of competition.
It can be stressful, there are people firing all around you.
In my chosen one, service rifle, I have had cold, heat, rain so hard that it fills the rear aperture and you have to blow it out before each shot in rapid fire, people shooting 2 feet away on both sides, 200+ shooting at the same time, hot brass hitting me, hot brass laying on my neck to ignore, bugs, boats in the impact area, cease fires, alibi's..... It isnt often that you get through a match without something off happening and you have to roll with it and still perform.
I know I can tune out a lot more now than I could when I started.
It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
All the talk of distractions makes me think that everyone should get into some form of competition.
It can be stressful, there are people firing all around you.
In my chosen one, service rifle, I have had cold, heat, rain so hard that it fills the rear aperture and you have to blow it out before each shot in rapid fire, people shooting 2 feet away on both sides, 200+ shooting at the same time, hot brass hitting me, hot brass laying on my neck to ignore, bugs, boats in the impact area, cease fires, alibi's..... It isnt often that you get through a match without something off happening and you have to roll with it and still perform.
I know I can tune out a lot more now than I could when I started.
Good point. Find a nearby IDPA club and go shoot with them. Don't give it too much thought, juts go there and sign up for a match. All you need is a carry gun, holster and a cover garment. Listen closely to the instruction on the stages and then shoot them like you would in the real world, NOT for time, but for effect using cover/concealment. It's great practice and you'll find your holes in training REALLY quickly.
Totally agreed on the competition. Just as long as you don’t practice bad habits.
Competition is something you can do more often than a full bore training class, cheaper and really fun. Take a good pistol combative/ CCW class, then use what you learn in a competition of some sort. But don’t fall into the competition trap- things like gaming the rules to win, etc... Practice and compete with your real carry gun, in your real carry rig and real carry garment.
To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
-Mikhail Kalashnikov
Totally agreed on the competition. Just as long as you don’t practice bad habits.
Competition is something you can do more often than a full bore training class, cheaper and really fun. Take a good pistol combative/ CCW class, then use what you learn in a competition of some sort. But don’t fall into the competition trap- things like gaming the rules to win, etc... Practice and compete with your real carry gun, in your real carry rig and real carry garment.
Added bonus, there are usually a lot of good folks competing and eager to help with critique, ideas and such. Even watching the good shooters is helpful.
Listen to everyone and just dismiss what does not sound right or doesn’t work for you. But you never know where the next jewel of wisdom will come from.
Sometimes it’s even a question from a less experienced shooter asking you why you do something a certain way that might even help you reassess a habit you’ve picked up.
Replies
Mike
N454casull
Also a topic going forward - what is the good fellow who brought this situation to a close likely to be faced with civilly, given that it was about as clean a shoot as could be asked for captured on video? No doubt we're all on the page of tarring and feathering anyone who would suggest anything other than pinning a medal on him, but it ain't necessarily the way the world works these days.
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
Even by the anti-2A folks.
Of course, if we had no guns at all, this wouldn't have happened at all.
Mike
N454casull
How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
He shouldn't have been allowed into the church. He shouldn't have been allowed into a movie theatre. He shouldn't have been allowed on a bus.
Mike
N454casull
https://gab.com/system/media_attachm...d6c8d40cd7.mp4
How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
BTW my wife is a world class shot heckler. She's quite adept at trying new ways to screw me up at the range.
I assumed that was a given.
It’s a process, a system, a regimen. You add as you go.
When I watch kids shoot 5 separate targets in 1.5, 1.6 seconds I'm in awe. They I get up there and do it and I think that was fast and they call out 2.1 and I'm mad. But in reality, that's faster then most people in the world do it but it's still to slow.
If a draw and shoot at 25 yards on a 6" circle in 3 seconds isn't part of your HD/SD training and practice regimen you're doing it freaking wrong.
Just as likely to get sideways in a church or walmart or grocery store as anything else. Hell, robberies and muggings happen inside structure too.
Props to the dude who domed that POS.
And there's more of us who are just reading and learning...
Competition is something you can do more often than a full bore training class, cheaper and really fun. Take a good pistol combative/ CCW class, then use what you learn in a competition of some sort. But don’t fall into the competition trap- things like gaming the rules to win, etc... Practice and compete with your real carry gun, in your real carry rig and real carry garment.
-Mikhail Kalashnikov