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Is anybody watching the impeachment trial's opening statements?

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  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Lake County, FloridaPosts: 7,927 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:


    This...after the Kavanaugh debacle, ensures I will never vote for a Democrat ...no matter who that Democrat may be...
    There hasn't been a demonrat I would vote for since 1968, and that year I didn't like Nixon.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    And a question for the Trump supporters.

    Has official State Department business been handled by the POTUS personal attorney at any time in the past? Is this acceptable procedure? 
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Manistee Natl ForestPosts: 18,284 Senior Member
    And a question for the Trump supporters.

    Has official State Department business been handled by the POTUS personal attorney at any time in the past? Is this acceptable procedure? 
    As long as he's getting the job done...I couldnt care less...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Hires people out of his own money to track down horribly corrupt politicians?  Yep, I’m good.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Between Ft Lauderdale and MiamiPosts: 12,558 Senior Member
    Why not?
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    Diver43 said:
    Why not?
    Thats exactly what Im trying to figure out.
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    They are trying to make it sound like he was going after HIS political opponent.  When all this happened he was one of what, 20? candidates?  Was he looking for dirt on all of them?
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    For a man that has the resources of the most powerful country in the world at his disposal to root out corruption, this seems like an odd way to do it....


    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    For a man that has the resources of the most powerful country in the world at his disposal to root out corruption, this seems like an odd way to do it....


    Maybe unlike his predecessor he does not want to turn the government into his personal private detective agency?  What’s wrong with using your own investigators and then if you find anything you turn it over to the authorities.  It’s what a man with incredible personal resources does.  Makes it so I (Joe Public) don’t have to foot the bill and at the same time expedites results he can’t get through the Washington muck.

    Anyway that’s the way I see it and probably what I’d done if I was in his shoes.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Where was the Republican run Senate with their investigative powers? How about the Republican run House? They had it from 2010 to 2018 and didn't investigate all this corruption going down?

    Joe Biden couldn't make his son's dirty piss test go away to keep him from being kicked out of the US Navy, now you expect me to believe that he engineered a conspiracy coordinated with Obama, the entire EU, and the Deep State to line his druggie son's pocket?
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    What’s wrong with using your own investigators and then if you find anything you turn it over to the authorities.  It’s what a man with incredible personal resources does.  Makes it so I (Joe Public) don’t have to foot the bill and at the same time expedites results he can’t get through the Washington muck.

    Anyway that’s the way I see it and probably what I’d done if I was in his shoes.
    He isn't financing it out of his own pocket. Rudy has said over and over again that he works for free for Trump. Do you know why he does it? It gives him access to a United States president, which in turn he is able to monetize-- just like Hunter Biden did with his vice president father.

    Besides, Guiliani hasn't turned anything over to the authorities, he is talking out his ass and playing the conspiracy theory game again. If he had anything, he could get right up there in front of the senate and get this whole thing cleared up for Donald. But that won't happen, because he is full of crap.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Okey dokey then...
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Michael Cohen did the same thing Guiliani and Hunter Biden did after Trump was elected. He monetized the fact that he had access to the president. While sleazy, it is entirely legal. Lots of businesses have paid lots of money through consulting fees, seats on their board, or any other scheme to line the pockets of people that have access to people in power. There is no need for some grand conspiracy.


    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    Hmmm?

    So where's the corruption case? Who's prosecuting it?
    Maybe will find out in the coming days.

    For the record, I dont believe an in elaborate Biden/Obama conspiracy. Large sums of American aid money went abroad. Those in the know coat-tailed.

    The House did a fair job of raising my suspicion. Rudy Guiliani doesn't strike me as selfless patriot. 
  • BamaakIIBamaakII Posts: 479 Member
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    Ive found Jerry Nadler to be a bit repulsive in the past. His presentation today was brilliant. Trump should have complied to the subpoenas and inquiries. Executive privilege has to be applied by item. Its not a blanket application.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Manistee Natl ForestPosts: 18,284 Senior Member
    Maybe he should have...but he doesn't have to..
    That's what Executive Privilege is all about.

    Just like the Dems screaming about him not releasing his tax returns.....that practice is customary, not mandatory...there's no law that says he (or any other candidate) has to...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • AccipiterAccipiter New Member Posts: 898 Senior Member
    Nadler was good yesterday as well.  He explained the arguments of the founders surrounding “high crimes”.  Abuse of power was clearly included.  

    Without any claim as to whether Trump is actually guilty, it is a terrible mistake for the republicans and the Trump admin to argue abuse of power is unimpeachable.  I don’t even mean in the context of Trump, but in the greater precedent that could be set.

    The Dems were stupid to have pursued the Russian collusion “scandal” as publicly, and doggedly as they did.  They destroyed all of their credibility for when a real possible abuse now stands before them. They come off as the boy who cried wolf.  Even though I found myself agreeing with certain arguments made by Schiff, I could not get out of my head that he was/is a smarmy lying politician that tried to railroad Trump on the Russian thing.


    Apparently free thought is punished, and conformity is required, while peckerless cowards run the show.

    ECHO...ECHO....echo...

    Ah......One savors the hypocrisy!

    Karma.........It’s a bitch.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Between Ft Lauderdale and MiamiPosts: 12,558 Senior Member
    When the Dems asked for documents and Trump said NO, there is a process to attempt to get them. The Dems did nothing but whine about it.
    They are still whining now.
    Why did they not get a court order for what they wanted?  My guess is that they knew it was not usable against Trump and this way they can keep screaming about it.
    Still want tax returns? Tuff, no ones business but the tax payer and the IRS
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Under a logPosts: 27,457 Senior Member
    The Democrats have spewed enough high grade manure to fertilize the whole of the Sahara desert to a depth of 10 feet and only lack the seed and fresh water to return it to its former green glory. That's my take on the Democratic Socialist spew fest, anyway.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    There's definitely a valid argument for processing the unanswered subpoenas through the courts. Length of time for the process is not a valid argument.

    Yes much of the trial has been fertilizer. A condensed to the point presentation would have been better. Bad acting has no value here.

    I intend to tune into defense arguments as much as I can including tomorrow. My intense interest is historical as much as or maybe even more than political.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    Patrick Philbin has clarified much of the subpoena argument I think. Without a vote of the House, they're lacking not just compulsory authority, but very important compulsory authority.

    I disagree with his points about the whistleblower. 


  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Just like the Russia BS they started with a sham hoping they would then find proof of a crime.  That’s like finding a BS reason come inside and then crawl all over the inside of your house so they can find some criminal activity. 
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    Maybe.

    Apparently, Republican rules from the Clinton impeachment allow subpoena power by HOR committee. Its still a point of legal contention and a very important point of proper government procedure.

    What's killing the credibility of the Democrats and the House in my mind is the attempted fast track, bypassing a court ruling on the subpoenas. Either this is as important is its supposed to be. Or its political subversion. I see no compromise between those opposites.
  • AccipiterAccipiter New Member Posts: 898 Senior Member
    Maybe.

    Apparently, Republican rules from the Clinton impeachment allow subpoena power by HOR committee. Its still a point of legal contention and a very important point of proper government procedure.

    What's killing the credibility of the Democrats and the House in my mind is the attempted fast track, bypassing a court ruling on the subpoenas. Either this is as important is its supposed to be. Or its political subversion. I see no compromise between those opposites.
    This and the desire to make a public spectacle of the whole thing......both times.  Both investigations could have been done thoroughly, and discreetly.  With a giant emphasis on discreetly.  Then if there was a legitimate crime, or high crime, and the evidence is solid you bring articles of impeachement.  This has been a trial of public opinion.

    For the record I think he did abuse his office.  That is opinion.  I also believe it has not yet been, and may never be, proven.  Without proof, opinion means nothing.  Trump deserves every protection the Constitution provides any citizen.  They should not have brought articles without solid proof/evidence.
    Apparently free thought is punished, and conformity is required, while peckerless cowards run the show.

    ECHO...ECHO....echo...

    Ah......One savors the hypocrisy!

    Karma.........It’s a bitch.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    I agree. Just as no one is above the law. Neither is anyone beneath it.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Between Ft Lauderdale and MiamiPosts: 12,558 Senior Member
    earlyagain said: xxxxxxx
    Maybe.

    Apparently, Republican rules from the Clinton impeachment allow subpoena power by HOR committee. Its still a point of legal contention and a very important point of proper government procedure.

    What's killing the credibility of the Democrats and the House in my mind is the attempted fast track, bypassing a court ruling on the subpoenas. Either this is as important is its supposed to be. Or its political subversion. I see no compromise between those opposites.
    They didn't bother with subpoenas because they only want to make noise.
    That is all this is, smear Trump talk all they want because no matter the outcome HE WILL ALWAYS BE IMPEACHED.  Funny thing they fail to realize. Not all Americans are dumb and blindly follow them.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    Id venture a guess that all Americans watching and listening will have accurate perception. I doubt many with firm predisposition will pay close attention.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    The defence I was able to tune into was remarkable. Well worth my time IMO.

    I'd be very surprised if all Senate decisions and rulings were not unanimous.

    Bolton is a non-issue. 21+ hours of theatrics selling importance can't exist on a fast track. Process the subpoenas through the courts. No court ruling, no contest. This is not a technicality. It imperative to democratic process.

    If the Dems and a hostile media have over played their hand with me, it surely resonates with other never-Trumpers for lack of a better phrase.

    I didn't check other networks but ABC interupted their day time coverage yesterday. They didn't do that with the prosecution. For those that hate public broadcasting. They covered everything, allowing me access I wouldn't have otherwise had. PBS even had Republican editorial.

  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    I watch during my breaks and Dershowitz was on point.  He took his time mounting a very compelling picture citing relevant law and history to show context.
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