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This is what we're up against...

GilaGila Posts: 1,908 Senior Member
No good deed goes unpunished...

Replies

  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    edited February 2020 #2
    Here’s the reality of the “child” in Bloomberg’s ad.  George Kemp was a grown ass man and a gang member.

    “The Texas court filings state that when police officers arrived at the shooting scene, "they discovered a deceased male, later identified as George Kemp, age 20, lying face down in a pool of blood." Additionally, the documents stated that the death was the result of a "gang-related shooting" where "two groups of young men," including Kemp, had met "for a fight."”
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    edited February 2020 #3
    I don't think individual cases will gain a lot of traction for the proponents of infringement. Especially ones subject to circumstantial interpretation.

    Where we're really in trouble is mass shootings at schools. These tragedies invoke emotional shock and desperation of almost everyone that sees them, including all of us. Its these terrible events that can be successfully used as an attack on constitutional freedom to gain political favor.

    The language of the narrative needs to be established. Infringement and constitutional freedom needs to be called as such. We win or lose the real argument after that. Letting the constitutional revisionists control the words will only hasten their success. 

    Here's an example of language control.
    Exploitation of human tragedy for political gain.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Merrritt Island, FLPosts: 25,219 Senior Member
    The answer is MORE Nanny Statism. I detest moralists of all stripes.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    School shootings, while statistically insignificant, are horrifying and therefore the perfect platform for progressive anti 2A grandstanding by the left.  But I think all their relentless/ineffective grandstanding and fake reactions are making the American public immune to it.  After a day or two you have the same handful of voices screaming to an empty chamber in Washington to no effect and everyone in the USA knows several folks that own ARs and they feel perfectly safe in their company.

    Hey some looney mowed down a butload if people in Vegas and it all went silent when they banned bump stocks.  An item no serious shooter wants/needs or even cares about, and most of the population didn’t even know existed or even how it works.
  • GilaGila Posts: 1,908 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    Here’s the reality of the “child” in Bloomberg’s ad.  George Kemp was a grown ass man and a gang member.

    “The Texas court filings state that when police officers arrived at the shooting scene, "they discovered a deceased male, later identified as George Kemp, age 20, lying face down in a pool of blood." Additionally, the documents stated that the death was the result of a "gang-related shooting" where "two groups of young men," including Kemp, had met "for a fight."”
    You beat me to it.  This is only one of the lies in the ad.  Another is the number of children killed annually, which includes young adults, also known as gang bangers.
    No good deed goes unpunished...
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Gila said:
    GunNut said:
    Here’s the reality of the “child” in Bloomberg’s ad.  George Kemp was a grown ass man and a gang member.

    “The Texas court filings state that when police officers arrived at the shooting scene, "they discovered a deceased male, later identified as George Kemp, age 20, lying face down in a pool of blood." Additionally, the documents stated that the death was the result of a "gang-related shooting" where "two groups of young men," including Kemp, had met "for a fight."”
    You beat me to it.  This is only one of the lies in the ad.  Another is the number of children killed annually, which includes young adults, also known as gang bangers.
    AND suicides AND crimes of passion committed by someone the victim knew or was related to where the firearm would have been substituted for a knife, bat, car...

    True criminal homicide by gun is a true anomaly in our society.  Your odds of dying while playing golf are MUCH!!!!! higher...
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    And AGAIN, 340,000,000+ people in the USA!!!  Statistically insignificant!
  • BamaakIIBamaakII Posts: 479 Member
    The whole we must do something narrative that happens after every school shooting is a major driver of societies anti gun stance.  The media runs the lefts sound bites into the ground for days and "something" that has zero affect on criminal use of guns gets done.  But do criminals care?  No that's why they are criminals.
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Lake County, FloridaPosts: 7,927 Senior Member
    The scummy left is very adept at exploitation for political use.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    That's why we have to gain control of the narrative. Constitutional freedom guaranteed for all law abiding citizens regardless of percieved qualification or imposed characterization. If Im not using my legal rights, do I still need them?

    The word "need," has to erased from the debate 
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    GunNut said:

    True criminal homicide by gun is a true anomaly in our society.  Your odds of dying while playing golf are MUCH!!!!! higher...

    I agree, but then that also limits our case on the 2A side in terms of the need to own or more importantly carry a gun. Frankly that fact is the reason I've never bothered to get a CCW. Yes I know there are still arguments based on the constitution and many other arguments, just pointing out how that argument can and will be used against us in the court of public opinion.
    The Second Amendment is NOT about self defense.  Using that argument as a basis is self limiting.  2A is about personal FREEDOM!!!  THAT is the argument that needs to become the mantra we wrap around ourselves.  Anything else can be defeated.

    In United States v. Cruikshank (1876), the Supreme Court ruled that, "The right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The Second Amendments [sic] means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress, and has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the National Government."
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Merrritt Island, FLPosts: 25,219 Senior Member
    Agreed, but remember we are pitted against statists, and Nanny Statists at that - who fervently believe the gov't is always a Good Thing (tm). Much of the GOP is the same way for that matter.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Kaniksu Nat'l Forest, IDPosts: 5,486 Senior Member
    That's why we have to gain control of the narrative. Constitutional freedom guaranteed for all law abiding citizens regardless of percieved qualification or imposed characterization. If Im not using my legal rights, do I still need them?

    The word "need," has to erased from the debate 
    The term "law abiding" also needs to be erased from the debate. It infers we will obey the law no matter what is written. Even Beto said we'd turn our guns in because we are law abiding. It stinks. 

    We need a term like "peaceable" to describe gun owners. "Don't tread on me" has been lost to a negative marketing campaign. 
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    edited February 2020 #15

    GunNut said:
    The Second Amendment is NOT about self defense.  Using that argument as a basis is self limiting.  2A is about personal FREEDOM!!!  THAT is the argument that needs to become the mantra we wrap around ourselves.  Anything else can be defeated.
    I get what you are trying to say, but I have to disagree slightly. I see the Second Amendment as acknowledgment of the natural right to self defense. It existed before humanity and it will still be around long after we are gone. It is only logical that by merely existing, we have a god given right to protect our own existence.

    Stepping off the railroad tracks to avoid an oncoming train is an act of self defense. If cornered, a squirrel will bite you in self defense. People won't argue with the right to self defense. Just like the freedom to speak as you wish and to worship as you desire, self defense (as acknowledged in the Second Amendment) is one component of personal freedom. If a government infringes on any of those aspects, they are interfering with our natural right to exist as we are created-- that is what the Bill of Rights in its entirety is trying to convey.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
     A mantra that's entirely inclusive of all constitutional personal freedoms. Inclusive of every citizen. Put in easy to understand terms using an economy of language. Repeated endlessly, to the point of becoming permanent social lexicon.
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member

    GunNut said:
    The Second Amendment is NOT about self defense.  Using that argument as a basis is self limiting.  2A is about personal FREEDOM!!!  THAT is the argument that needs to become the mantra we wrap around ourselves.  Anything else can be defeated.
    I get what you are trying to say, but I have to disagree slightly. I see the Second Amendment as acknowledgment of the natural right to self defense. It existed before humanity and it will still be around long after we are gone. It is only logical that by merely existing, we have a god given right to protect our own existence.

    Stepping off the railroad tracks to avoid an oncoming train is an act of self defense. If cornered, a squirrel will bite you in self defense. People won't argue with the right to self defense. Just like the freedom to speak as you wish and to worship as you desire, self defense (as acknowledged in the Second Amendment) is one component of personal freedom. If a government infringes on any of those aspects, they are interfering with our natural right to exist as we are created-- that is what the Bill of Rights in its entirety is trying to convey.
    You can't make this about a right to self defense because the Government will say, no problem, we take care of that for you.  We provide police, Armed Forces, first responders so we have you covered and your odds of needing to defend yourself are SMALL.  And as has been mentioned they will use our statistics against us.  If you odds of needing a gun for SD are small then the "need" is small and easily overpowered by their perceived social benefit of outlawing guns outright.

    I do not NEED to carry a gun for SD.  I WANT TO carry a gun for SD and it is my prerogative as a free man to do so and that RIGHT can NOT be infringed by the Government.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Manistee Natl ForestPosts: 18,280 Senior Member
    edited February 2020 #18
    Lest we forget ...and no matter how you twist it....the 2A was never about hunting ( as some politicians would have you believe) nor is it about self defense (as has suddenly become a popular reason to support the 2A)..it was written to ensure "the people"of this country always have the means to overthrow a tyrannical government...

    The " right" to defend ones self is a natural right and as such didn't need to be spelled out in the Constitution.

    In my opinion the anti-gun politicians know EXACTLY what the intent of the 2A is...and it scares the crap out of them...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    You can't make this about a right to self defense because the Government will say, no problem, we take care of that for you.  We provide police, Armed Forces, first responders so we have you covered and your odds of needing to defend yourself are SMALL.
    Just as a government can't breath, speak, or worship for you, they cannot defend you. That is why it is called self defense. Under the Constitution, one government function is for national defense but it isn't the same thing. 2A acknowledges self defense. I don't understand how anyone can make that argument once you explain this very important distinction.

    City, county, and state defense isn't the same as self defense either. Those are socialized services supplied for the common good. Self defense is an individual right that existed, exists, and will continue to exist with or without a government or constitution.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    edited February 2020 #20

    Jayhawker said:
    Lest we forget ...and no matter how you twist it....the 2A was never about hunting ( as some politicians would have you believe) nor is it about self defense (as has suddenly become a popular reason to support the 2A)..it was written to ensure "the people"of this country always have the means to overthrow a tyrannical government...

    The " right" to defend ones self is a natural right and as such didn't need to be spelled out in the Constitution.
    The ability of the people in this country to have means of overthrowing a tyrannical government is self defense. A tyrannical government is one that infringes our freedoms.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    Maybe a tv commercial.

    Mom gets a text from child. Help me! She tries to call. Gets a pop-up. Government mandated curfew. Goes to get in the car, turns the key. Dash display says, "curfew, driving not allowed until 6am." Tries to call for a change in the law. Gets arrested, and imprisoned. Or some such similar chain of events. Made to look like common every day people trying to do common every day things, but caught in a nightmare that prohibits all attempts.

    Then a brief slogan at the end to convey a simple easy to understand concept. Like maybe, we're either a free society or we're not. Or something similar.

    Wrap up gun rights with all rights.
    Use actors that appeal to everyone in situations everyone can relate to. Pound home a redundant easy to memorize slogan that can't be turned on its head for nefarious purpose.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Manistee Natl ForestPosts: 18,280 Senior Member
    edited February 2020 #22

    Jayhawker said:
    Lest we forget ...and no matter how you twist it....the 2A was never about hunting ( as some politicians would have you believe) nor is it about self defense (as has suddenly become a popular reason to support the 2A)..it was written to ensure "the people"of this country always have the means to overthrow a tyrannical government...

    The " right" to defend ones self is a natural right and as such didn't need to be spelled out in the Constitution.
    The ability of the people in this country to have means of overthrowing a tyrannical government is self defense. A tyrannical government is one that infringes on our freedoms.
    Still not "self defense" as most people interpret it.....

    The Michigan Contitution spells it out quite clearly
    "Every person has the right to keep and bear arms for defense of himself and the state"

    Two distinctly different things.
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    The Bill of Rights just enumerates fundamental rights of free people.  They do not need to be qualified or justified.
  • GilaGila Posts: 1,908 Senior Member
    14th Amendment...
    No good deed goes unpunished...
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