Home Main Category Personal Defense

pros and cons of red dot on edc

13»

Replies

  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,383 Senior Member
    And another hard topic break for observations on the subject of ZEROING:

    I've been finding that zeroing a pistol off an improvised rest to zero usually gives me a need to keep adjusting things once I get off of that improvised rest.

    The method I've been coming around to is to shoot a slow fire ten shot group unsupported with my normal grip, discount any known fliers, and adjust off the center of that group.  Ten shots gives you a good sampling of your normal mode of operation, and reduces the tendency to "chase the spotter".  Seems to save time and uncertainty.  YMMV.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,388 Senior Member
    @Bigslug,  from shooting some HARD recoiling SPs, I have something that will help, instead of resting the handgun, which can alter how it recoils and the resulting POI, rest your forearms. That allows the handgun to recoil naturally and have less effect on the POI.

    The late Dan Johnson clued me in to that
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,383 Senior Member
    I will definitely play with that at distance.  Not so much a factor in the game I'm currently playing.

    For academic nerdiness. . .

    The primary red dots and mounting systems I'm working with are putting the center of the red dot about 1" above bore - - on a 9mm Glock.

    Personally, I like the math on a 15 yard zero.  From between 10 to 40 yards, a 1000 fps 147 grainer is no more than a quarter inch high or low out to 40 yards - so you get pretty much point and click to any reasonably distance you might expect to play.

    HOWEVER. . . a ten yard zero peaks at a little under 1.5" high, is dead on again at 50 yards, AND has two additional advantages in the sense of quick, easy, done-on-to-the-next-one:

    1.  The MOA math for your clicks at 10 yards gets real simple.

    2.  It's pretty easy to shoot half-dollar sized groups at that distance - less spotter chasing.

    I'll no doubt have to get to figuring on what the other likely calibers and gun/mount combos are going to like.  
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • shotgunshooter3shotgunshooter3 Senior Member Posts: 5,808 Senior Member

    - I am a rifleman with a poorly chosen screen name. -
    "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, and speed is the economy of motion" - Scott Jedlinski
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 6,297 Senior Member
     :D  :D:D
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • shotgunshooter3shotgunshooter3 Senior Member Posts: 5,808 Senior Member
    edited December 2020 #67
    Slug, while I'm sure "testing" all of this on city money is enjoyable (and I commend you for pulling it off), I strongly suggest you fire up the Google Machine. Look up terms like "Sage Dynamics RDS white paper;" "Modern Samurai Project;" "Scott Jedlinski;" "Press Check Consulting;" "Houston PD pistol red dot;" and other similar terms. 

    I am confident that ALL of the "research" you have done has already been conducted by others, and track records have already been established. Serviceable RDS models, mounting methods and practices, appropriate BUIS, suitable dot size and variations, zero distances, methods of employment, etc et all. Many users have walked this path already and paved it for us late adopters. 

    Instead of stumbling upon a wheel, pushing it down a hill, and claiming you've discovered the function of it, why not look at your neighbor who has attached two wheels to a cart and is offering a free instruction manual?
    - I am a rifleman with a poorly chosen screen name. -
    "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, and speed is the economy of motion" - Scott Jedlinski
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,383 Senior Member
    On the topic of durability, I'm with you.  There are a few agencies that have sunk some staggering budgetary effort into insane round counts and deliberate physical abuse.  In general, I'm willing to take their word on what will or won't hold up.

    And I HAVE been picking up good stuff from elsewhere. . .But frankly, I'm taking it all with a lot of salt and trying to draw my own conclusions from my own new and prior experiences simply because it's too damned new and ain't none of it gospel yet. If I haven't used the analogy here already, the whole notion of duty-ready RDS and assorted gear like holsters is basically a little beyond the state of fighter planes in WWI or computers in 1984, or maybe even accessories for the M16 platform right after 9/11.  This tech and the doctrine to go with it are both likely to be advancing a lot over the next few years - - probably with plenty of bad or quickly obsolete ideas that will get discarded along the way. 

    At this point, I kinda consider it my duty to not trust much and verify heavily.

    In other news - got my first look at a Holosun 509 and CHPWS's mounting plate for it today.  The gun it will live on has not joined its owner yet, but basically the same tech with the *apparent* advantage of having the guts more enclosed with front and rear windows that are close to the exterior of the sight.  The back of my 507 is recessed and the front is deliberately recessed with the "stand off" Defender mounting plate.  I did some shooting at 50 yards a couple weeks ago with some dust and goobers on the glass in truly BAD low-and-to-the-front sunlight conditions - it wasn't fun.  Fortunately, I had eyeglasses cleaning stuff in the car and was able to get it passably clean, but the recessed glass on both sides made it a bit of a pain in the ass.  The 509 is going to be A LOT easier to get along with - at least in that regard.  Adequately break or scratch resistant with the greater exposure? TBD.  If it is, I hope to see them do a compact model for the micro guns - it would be a welcome approach in the lint-filled world of CCW.

    And that might be a good mission statement for the folks making this stuff - if it's not as easy to care for as the Glock it's attached to, it may still be a work in progress.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,925 Senior Member
    Bigslug brings up my primary concern, I have friends that are LEO's, and I treat LEO's, and I have seen the road rash they get on their persons doing their jobs and I assume there is occasion to wipe snow, dirt, or rain off the lens, how is that working out? Especially in the rain.  
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,383 Senior Member
    Not only rain, but the fogging that can result when transitioning from cold to warm to say nothing of flat out breakage or battery failure.  I still have to toss my Glock in the office mini-fridge and test some of that out personally. 

    Several of my partners got into guest slots at a transition course a neighboring agency offered us - there seems to be a new process of point shooting developing around this concern using various external reference points on the pistol in lieu of sights.  It's certainly not going to give you long range bullseye results, but at close range, just superimposing the window of the sight over your target  in a shoulder-to-shoulder approach works fine.  Back corners of the slide, side of the slide, top of the red dot hood - take your pick.  Having your proper grip sorted out beforehand will obviously be a factor here.

    I've never been one for true point shooting - not because it can't be learned or doesn't work, but because the time and ammo required  to get good at shooting without direct-line visual reference off the gun is really prohibitive in an "industrial" setting.  This "fudge sight" approach is not really point shooting, but rather improvising other sights.  No doubt easier.



    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,925 Senior Member
    Thanks BS, the weather in the Northern Midwest yields different results in than the Southwest, I have gotten enough rain/sleet/snow down the back of my collar in the woods and then onto my slung or carried rifle scope to be frustratedly wiping off a scope a lot.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,383 Senior Member
    Yep. . .I'm familiar.  Left Illinois when I was 12.  On my first summer visit back after getting glasses, I walked outside the air conditioned house and experienced total lens white-out before I got across the  front porch. "This is new", I said. :D

    I can definitely see the recessed rear lens of the HS407/507/508 to be a liability in that regard.  The effect is less pronounced on an RMR and the HS509 addresses it entirely. 

    The exposed duty carry holsters from Safariland and Blackhawk have spring-away hoods that should keep the worst of the Evil Bitch (AKA Mother Nature) at bay, but it's not a sealed system.   A parka over the top of it will help, but officers carrying drop downs of any kind will be totally reliant on the holster hood.

    For CCW in the cold, it's safe to assume we'll be deploying sights that are warmer than outside air thanks to body heat, but colder than inside dwellings.  Perspiration moisture building up under your coat or fogging going indoors may be the things to expect.

    OK. . .More stuff to play with. . .
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,925 Senior Member
    I am going to ask the local LEO's if they have played with any of the gear in question, I have not noted any of the holsters you have mentioned.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,383 Senior Member
    Safariland 6360 series.  Pretty much their standard SLS/ALS retention with the shell expanded to give room for the RDS.  The SLS "bail" pushes the RDS dust cover out of the way.  Replacing the dust cover requires an extra step to flip it backward after holstering, but if you've been running their old level 3 holsters (last 7 ish years maybe), there are no mysteries to it.

    The Blackhawk dust cover and other retentions all release with the push of a thumb button accessible from the position of a normal firing grip.

    A few of the Kydex CCW holsters we have were easily altered with a little bit of file or Dremel work.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,521 Senior Member
    Well here's an... interesting way to mount an RDS. This seems to be a real miniature MRDS.

    I am not sure a longish, narrow-tubed red dot is really an answer.  Other articles say that you can spend time searching for the dot in fast presentations.

    https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/leupold-deltapoint-micro-red-dot-sight-first-look/387195
    Overkill is underrated.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,925 Senior Member
    There you go, interesting take on the concept.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,383 Senior Member
    Well here's an... interesting way to mount an RDS. This seems to be a real miniature MRDS.
    That is an interesting approach - depending on the price, it may get those with older, unmilled slides into the game reasonably.   With that rear/downward extension, it's probably not really going to be a valid duty gun option because of how those holsters work.  Also a little irksome in that it has to be removed to "un-gut" the slide for service, BUT, it does seem to be a version of the scope mount kits for mil-surp rifles that don't require modifying the gun.  That's commendable in its own right.

    I am not sure a longish, narrow-tubed red dot is really an answer.  Other articles say that you can spend time searching for the dot in fast presentations.
    A couple methods there.  The one I've adopted is simply a slight modification of the way I find my iron sight picture in which I drive the gun forward with the muzzle slightly high until I start to pick up the front sight, then as my arms get fully extended, I kick the muzzle down to bring it into alignment with the rear.

    I do the exact same thing with a red dot, except instead of the front sight, I reference off the top/center of the RDS hood.  When you kick the muzzle downward, the dot drops right into your field.  I'm still learning it, and it's not exactly 100% foolproof, but even if you have to hunt a little, you've still eliminated the alignment and focus shift elements of iron sights.  Unless you totally botch it, at worst, it's probably a wash - - -although honestly, the kids with eyes that are still flexible are going to be the real fair comparators of speed between the two systems. 
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,521 Senior Member
    Bigslug said:
    Well here's an... interesting way to mount an RDS. This seems to be a real miniature MRDS.
    That is an interesting approach - depending on the price, it may get those with older, unmilled slides into the game reasonably.   With that rear/downward extension, it's probably not really going to be a valid duty gun option because of how those holsters work.  Also a little irksome in that it has to be removed to "un-gut" the slide for service, BUT, it does seem to be a version of the scope mount kits for mil-surp rifles that don't require modifying the gun.  That's commendable in its own right.
    I'm not sure it's aimed at the duty gun market.  Watched an evaluation by one of Clint Smith's guys, and he said it works well for CCW/Off-duty work.  His only vision for it being as a duty gun was if a chief or department didn't want to spring for milled or milling the slides.  But he didn't say he'd tested it with a lot of duty holsers.
    I am not sure a longish, narrow-tubed red dot is really an answer.  Other articles say that you can spend time searching for the dot in fast presentations.
    A couple methods there.  The one I've adopted is simply a slight modification of the way I find my iron sight picture in which I drive the gun forward with the muzzle slightly high until I start to pick up the front sight, then as my arms get fully extended, I kick the muzzle down to bring it into alignment with the rear.

    I do the exact same thing with a red dot, except instead of the front sight, I reference off the top/center of the RDS hood.  When you kick the muzzle downward, the dot drops right into your field.  I'm still learning it, and it's not exactly 100% foolproof, but even if you have to hunt a little, you've still eliminated the alignment and focus shift elements of iron sights.  Unless you totally botch it, at worst, it's probably a wash - - -although honestly, the kids with eyes that are still flexible are going to be the real fair comparators of speed between the two systems. 
    Same guy said it works really well for those who are really used to using standard sights and are having a hard time transitioning to other red dots.  Said for those folks, a closed emitter like the Leupold or others works better, and it seems that the smaller the tube, the more easily folks are adapting to the sight.  I've read similar articles regarding issues some have with red dots on rifles, i.e. Aimpoint vs. EoTech.  

    Overkill is underrated.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,925 Senior Member
    edited January 4 #79
    I talked to a friend that just completed his departments sniper training and he was using a dot sight as a back up to the scope, not sure how he had it mounted, moisture was a problem in MN with training scenarios, he did like it at the range. He has not played with one on an EDC yet, he assumes the same problems would exist.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • BamaakIIBamaakII Posts: 313 Member
    edited January 6 #80
    Well here's an... interesting way to mount an RDS. This seems to be a real miniature MRDS.

    I am not sure a longish, narrow-tubed red dot is really an answer.  Other articles say that you can spend time searching for the dot in fast presentations.

    https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/leupold-deltapoint-micro-red-dot-sight-first-look/38719

    Colin noir did a video on this sight..  he seemed to like it. said it was the same as shooting iron sites  in how you present and attain sight picture.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,521 Senior Member


    So besides the cost savings of just bolting this on to most any Glock or M&P vs getting a slide that's ready for a MRDS, the commenter hints at I was wondering what the target audience was: folks who want a RDS but are very ingrained into shooting irons, like BamaakII said. 
    Overkill is underrated.
  • shotgunshooter3shotgunshooter3 Senior Member Posts: 5,808 Senior Member
    I'm curious. May grab one to play with on my spare Glock 19 slide. I'm pretty comfortable with the normal slide mounted RDS, but this one may very well have its niche. 

    I'll still happily EDC my RMR though. 
    - I am a rifleman with a poorly chosen screen name. -
    "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, and speed is the economy of motion" - Scott Jedlinski
  • BamaakIIBamaakII Posts: 313 Member
    I think its size is what its selling point is.  Lower to the bore as well.  Less profile above the slide.
Sign In or Register to comment.
Magazine Cover

GET THE MAGAZINE Subscribe & Save

Temporary Price Reduction

SUBSCRIBE NOW

Give a Gift   |   Subscriber Services

PREVIEW THIS MONTH'S ISSUE

GET THE NEWSLETTER Join the List and Never Miss a Thing.

Get the top Guns & Ammo stories delivered right to your inbox every week.

Advertisement