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Accuracy expectations for a SD handgun

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  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    edited April 2020 #32
    My mentality: There IS someone out there who can beat me. But, not today. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 4,349 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    My mentality: There IS someone out there who can beat me. But, not today. 
    This. 110%, yes.. 

    Motivation... 😘
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 12,140 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    My mentality: There IS someone out there who can beat me. But, not today. 
    There may be someone that can beat you, me, or him. But if we all train they will never beat US.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    edited April 2020 #35
    GunNut said:
    Gene L said:
    Every round you fire practicing for a highly unlikely scenario is one round less you didn't fire for a more likely scenario.  Life is not without some chances, but there is a good reason I dropped my Godzilla insurance.  Got to play the odds and not rely on winning the Lottery.

    The church shooting is only remarkable for where it happened.

    Of course, I don't care how you practice.  My objection is from how seriously shooters take this.  Back during the IPSC (or whatever it was called) I was a lane officer at a shoot here.  One of the competitors said to another, "We're from Philadelphia. We LIVE this #$#$ for real."  


    No, you don't. Like everyone else here, you're playing a game.
    So I’m trying to understand the reasoning here.  Why would practicing at longer distances and more challenging scenarios hurt my chances if I end up in a much simpler or shorter distance SD predicament?

    In my mind, if I can thread the needle at 50 yards would 10 feet be even a challenge?!?!
    I train harder so everything else is easier. 
    I shoot faster and further at smaller targets........so everything else is easier.

    The bosses asked once why we shoot targets at distances we would never engage. 
    My response, “Because we can. And that makes us very dangerous.”
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 4,349 Senior Member
    I’m Zee said:
    I train harder so everything else is easier. 
    I shoot faster and further at smaller targets........so everything else is easier.
    Again, this... 

    You’ll be better at the basics if you push yourself past them. 

    And its a perishable skill. No matter how good you are. You have to keep it going. 
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 12,140 Senior Member
    Jay said:
    I’m Zee said:
    I train harder so everything else is easier. 
    I shoot faster and further at smaller targets........so everything else is easier.
    Again, this... 

    You’ll be better at the basics if you push yourself past them. 

    And its a perishable skill. No matter how good you are. You have to keep it going. 
    No doubt about that. I was overdue for a trip to the range when this corona virus mess started.  Ranges have been shut down and no place to shoot.  Dry fire practice is all I will have until things open up again.  
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,575 Senior Member
    GunNut said:

    So I’m trying to understand the reasoning here.  Why would practicing at longer distances and more challenging scenarios hurt my chances if I end up in a much simpler or shorter distance SD predicament?

    In my mind, if I can thread the needle at 50 yards would 10 feet be even a challenge?!?!
    Oh, I doubt it would hurt your chances, especially distance.  I mean it could; a guy walking up on you armed with a baseball bat and making threats from 75 feet away.  Too far to offer an immediate threat?  Legal questions might arise as to why you engaged at 25 feet, beyond general attack range, but you probably would have a justifiable reason if the BG attempted to shoot first or threatened you with death or physical harm if that threat could be realistically carried out.  Several rounds in the head might give some trouble, however; depends on too many things to determine.  Dump some guy given today's climate, if you give the impression of overdoing it, may likely end you up in court,  "Was it necessary to shoot Mr. Jones 5 times in the head?"

    Then there's the possibility/certainty of getting sued by some crack-head's family. who will swear Leroy was a paradigm of virtue and  didn't deserve to die.

    Me, if I saw I was being attacked with weapons above my pay grade, say a guy with a rifle or a gauge, I would do my best to break contact and haul ass.  That's what I learned in the Army.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    edited April 2020 #39
    Gene, I hope the world you envision and the threats you face are as pleasant and docile as you perceive.  

    Hell, I wish the same for us all. 

    You have the right and proclivity to prepare and plan as you see fit for you and yours. May you be willing and able to the task. 

    But if not...........may there be one nearby who is. For your sake and those around you. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 2,122 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    Preppers...continually preparing for Worst Case that never happens. 
    You mean the preppers that are rolling on the floor with laughter at people fighting over TP in the grocery store?

  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    edited April 2020 #41
    I just realized. After reading the boards here for some years. I think I expect all of your SD guns to be more accurate than mine.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 14,203 Senior Member
    I find all of my handguns to be more accurate than me at indoor range distances, once I get warmed up I do catch up and my groups tighten up at these ranges, I am landing shots called by the range officer where they are supposed to be, I should be practicing at some across the church sanctuary distances.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • shotgunshooter3shotgunshooter3 Senior Member Posts: 5,970 Senior Member
    edited April 2020 #43
    I'm willing to bet that those NYC LEOs who hit a few bystanders and MISSED the violent suspect had satisfactorily met the minimum, and "most likely" standard. Lo and behold, when the great wildcard of stress was applied to the situation their training didn't hold up. Maybe, just maybe, had they trained to a higher standard, they would have succeeded when the dangerous equation of (most likely standard + stress) presented itself. 

    I wasn't there, and I've never had to take on a dangerous suspect in a crowded area. With that said, as an example, a significant portion of initial and recurrent helicopter training revolves around emergency procedures. We quite literally are evaluated every year on an emergency that has never occurred in the field, but would be deadly if it did so. Perhaps pilots should just train for the most common emergency as well, as all my real world mechanical failures and issues have been comparatively minor. Oh, wait, after years of having worst case drilled into my head, the most likely was almost a non-event by comparison. 
    - I am a rifleman with a poorly chosen screen name. -
    "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, and speed is the economy of motion" - Scott Jedlinski
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,575 Senior Member
    edited April 2020 #44
    Gene L said:
    Preppers...continually preparing for Worst Case that never happens. 
    You mean the preppers that are rolling on the floor with laughter at people fighting over TP in the grocery store?

    The esteemed Dr Who once made a statement regarding toilet paper that many here remember.  I've found myself responding to this.  No shortage for m

    Zee said:
    Gene, I hope the world you envision and the threats you face are as pleasant and docile as you perceive.  

    Hell, I wish the same for us all. 

    You have the right and proclivity to prepare and plan as you see fit for you and yours. May you be willing and able to the task. 

    But if not...........may there be one nearby who is. For your sake and those around 

    Zee, we all have to live our own lives, and there is certainlly a place for a reasonable amount of paranoia.  The way I live my life is based on 75 years of experience.  So far while life has its ups and downs, I've survived.  I have no personal problem with those who choose paranoia, but it's not for me.

    What I do find problematical are those who think their paranoia somehow informs my life.  It doesn't.  And what I find condescending to quite a degree is those who think I'm a helpless sucker because I won't play their games.  And worse, feign pity for me.  Don't need it, genuine or faux.

    I'm an old man. I didn't make it through a war and a career as a LEO and become an old man because I'm a helpless wimp.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,955 Senior Member
    What accuracy needs to be whatever you want it to be.
    That said, I shoot a bit farther and try to shoot a bit better every time. I like the 15 in a B8 at 25. I think I may work with that. I have those and in slow and rapid fire I run around 450+ out of 500 score wise slow and rapid fire at 25.
     I don't shoot a lot of handgun, but I have a 12in steel that I ding from back by the fence post, about 45 yards with the 1911. I ding the same one (most of the time) from the porch, about 60 yards, with the 22/45. Will probably get more hits once I cut the branches that are in the way. I started doing that not because I think I am going to engage anyone at 60 yards with a 22, but because I didn't feel like walking down to the 25 or 45 yard spots because my lazy butt likes the porch chairs. No I don't expect to engage a person at 50 yards. If I did, I would take a rifle and it would be pre meditated. 

    As to practicing and what others think about your preparation...
    I think the last few weeks have pretty much segmented those who plan for the best case that they can think of, from those that plan ahead. Owning rain gear on a sunny day is not a silly idea. Its not raining today, and if it does, you will probably be inside, but it is going to rain at some point and you might get caught outside. There is no difference in thought process from putting up an emergency fund and having a pantry so you don't have to go shopping every three days and people giggling at you and taking the time to shoot a bit farther and straighter. What are the odds of a pandemic? Pretty slim, we are having one if no one has noticed. What are the odds that supply chains get bogged down? Pretty slim, but here we are. What are the odds of a tornado, snowstorm, earthquake, power outage? Better, though some people still don't think it will happen until they have been without power for 3 days.


    So that said. I want to be able to be somewhat prepared for something (like a pandemic) even though I was pretty sure I wont see it in my lifetime. Its not wrong to have a few weeks worth of food, Its not wrong to have months or years worth of expenses available, and its not wrong to be able to hit a head sized target pretty reliably at 50 yards, because if you knew what was going to happen, you could just avoid it. 
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    What he said. 👆🏻
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    edited April 2020 #47

    What I do find problematical are those who think their paranoia somehow informs my life.  It doesn't.  And what I find condescending to quite a degree is those who think I'm a helpless sucker because I won't play their games.  And worse, feign pity for me.  Don't need it, genuine or faux.



    Gene,
    Your inability to see the other side of that coin only highlights your short sighted and narrow mindedness towards anything differing from your own viewpoint. 

    For you are treating others in the same manner you wish not to be treated. 

    Just a head up. 👍🏻
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • FreezerFreezer Senior Member Posts: 2,359 Senior Member
    First let me say my SD guns are what I call "Bad Breath Guns", If I pull it out of my pocket and holster I can smell their bad breath. I believe Dirty Harry had it right, "A mans got to know his limitations". I can't afford to and don't practice enough. Both my carry pieces have fixed rudimentary sights. I get 6" @ 25 yards with my PA 63. I haven't tried my NAA at that distance. 

    When your butt is on the line it's hard to shot accurately. My mentor, the owner of a LGS is a pistolero as is his friend who is trained in security service. They were in the LGS one morning when three BGs tried to enter. The first entered and held the door open, the second had a 357 and the third a shot gun. The LGS owner had a 92 Beretta and I'm not sure what his friend had. As the first entered the store and the second made it into the door way, the owner and his friend opened fire. They hit the first guy twice, the second turned to run, squeezed the 357s trigger, shot the third guy and a kid across the street in the arm. #2 got away but was killed in a car wreck two weeks later after robbing a bank. The owner and his friend were both competition shooters and very good. The owners statement is " It's different when your shooting at a live person and they could shoot back." He had to install thick bullet proof plexi glass over the front windows and his insurance sky rocketed. This situation cost him 100k and both of them had to wait three months to get their pistols back. 

    My friend Pat lived in a bad neighborhood and had trouble with a gang. One day he was confronted in his front yard. After knocking the mouth piece on his butt twice the little street rat ran to a buddy and reached into his waste band. Pat didn't wait, pulled his SIG and put a round into the kids shoulder at 10 feet. Pat admits he missed he had aimed for his head. The rest of the "little soldiers" scattered. Pat spent that night in jail and was relieved of all his fire arms until the DA cleared him almost a month later. A friend who I won't mention rearmed him. The insurance company gave the street rat 50k.

    My third story was in the news. There was an active shooter in a mall. When the police arrived they saw a man with a gun running through the mall, they shot and killed him. It turned out the was a good guy with a CCW trying to locate and confront the shooter.

    I've had to draw a gun three times in my life and I can tell you, what happened to my body wasn't pretty but now I know what to expect of myself.

    My point, practice as much and as hard as you can. If you can afford a superbly accurate gun the better. Just remember "It's different"!  Bad things are going to happen. That's why I consider my CCWs bad breath guns and when I can I practice accordingly. If you can stress and distract yourself while you practice the better.



     
    I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,575 Senior Member
    Zee said:

    What I do find problematical are those who think their paranoia somehow informs my life.  It doesn't.  And what I find condescending to quite a degree is those who think I'm a helpless sucker because I won't play their games.  And worse, feign pity for me.  Don't need it, genuine or faux.



    Gene,
    Your inability to see the other side of that coin only highlights your short sighted and narrow mindedness towards anything differing from your own viewpoint. 

    For you are treating others in the same manner you wish not to be treated. 

    Just a head up. 👍🏻

    Are you about through venting?

    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,575 Senior Member
    Zee, are you about through venting?
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    Why Zee, that's a bit rude.

    Yes, I'm kinda interested, especially in how far this thread had drifted.  You shoot great, fine.  Go impress someone.  You've stated your preferences.  I have no intentions of becoming mute especially when people insist their hobbies are vital.  It's fun for those who can afford it, but I can't help but think of Preppers...continually preparing for Worst Case that never happens.  A harmless form of paranoia that keeps MRE suppliers in business. Paranoia sucks.  But not my money, not my time.
    Gene L said:
    I'm way too old and poor to spend a lot of money on games based on extremely unlikely scenarios that never happen in real life. Extreme preparation requires extreme investments in cash and time, so us old, poor people have to prepare for what is likely to happen.  Forget tiger attacks.  Forget carrying a dozen mags.
    Hi Gene,

    I think the issue is that statements like these seem derogatory (maybe even a little combative) to folks that do not see things from YOUR perspective.  I guess I understand why you think how you think.  You've stated many times you live in a small community where you feel safe. 

    Some of us have spent our lives in more "challenging" environments like big cities, military (so have you and probably more than most here) and such and the ongoing exposure, either directly or though local news, to frequent enough events like mass shooting and violent home invasions have jaded our views on humanity and given us a different set of personal SD capability goals.

    But none of this matters.  At at the end of the day you either enjoy challenging yourself to be "better" by going faster, farther and tougher, OR are you are Ok with doing what you believe is good enough for your perceived life/circumstances.  Of course all this is time, budget and priorities guided and varies GREATLY by the individual. 

    I happen to be one of the folks that actually enjoys this, and it just so happens that I find it useful skills.  So I personally don't understand why someone else would not, but as you and others have said, to each their own.



  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,575 Senior Member
    "I happen to be one of the folks that actually enjoys this, and it just so happens that I find it useful skills.  So I personally don't understand why someone else would not, but as you and others have said, to each their own."


    A bit ironic in that I'm the one being accused of not seeing the other side of this issue.  I guess when you strongly buy into a belief, it's difficult to accept that all others do not.

    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    "I happen to be one of the folks that actually enjoys this, and it just so happens that I find it useful skills.  So I personally don't understand why someone else would not, but as you and others have said, to each their own."


    A bit ironic in that I'm the one being accused of not seeing the other side of this issue.  I guess when you strongly buy into a belief, it's difficult to accept that all others do not.

    Of course, it is human nature and World Wide wars have been fought over exactly this.  Some trying to impose what they believe is right on others.

    The difference is that I'm not accusing you of anything or putting down your stance as far as I know.  If it you feel like I did I apologize, that was not my intention, I'm all good with whatever makes you sleep well at night. 
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    It seems a contention springs from perceived implication.

    I invest maximum effort of time and effort to achieve an ever increasing level of proficiency. My discriptive text is percieved as implying that anyone doing less is inferior and doomed for the
    statistical scrap heep of victim.

    I invest some amount of time and effort to achieve what seems reasonable. That amount being less than maximum is justified by the characterization of those investing more as being paranoid or overzealous or egocentric.

    Some portion of the percieved implications are real and some portion is imagined. 

    My thinking is that the biggest threat to personal and family safety comes from the inherent dangers of motor vehicle travel. A whole host of other threats follow close behind. Like home accidents, fire, health issues, and so forth. With all of the bad news broadcast into our homes, heard word of mouth, or randomly found on-line. Hardly anyone here has been forced into the application of lethal force to protect themselves and/or their families. No one I personally know. Nor anyone of my acquaintance has ever had to use a gun for defense of their lives. This in combination with the fullness of entirety must guide the use of my time and resources according with my own judgement.
  • GilaGila Posts: 1,887 Senior Member
    I just decided to read this thread.  Not at all what I expected.  I thought it would be about the accuracy of the self defense weapons we have or would like to carry, not about anyone's proficiency...
    No good deed goes unpunished...
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,575 Senior Member
    Yeah.  It's called thread drift.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Gila said:
    I just decided to read this thread.  Not at all what I expected.  I thought it would be about the accuracy of the self defense weapons we have or would like to carry, not about anyone's proficiency...
    I don't know that this is thread drift at all.  I think the two are highly intertwined.  If you challenge yourself as shooter to engage targets further out your need for accurate guns becomes self-evident.  So your need for accuracy is intricately tied to the distance and challenge you want to put into your training ad your expectations of your SD gun.
    Not implying that one is better or worse, to each their own.  BUT if your practice is at powder burning distances then any gun that will spit lead out of a barrel will pretty much do as long as it's reliable.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,955 Senior Member
    Most SD pistols and revolvers are a lot more accurate than the hands that hold them. Now if you consider a 32 S&W LONG in a brick accurate enough, then post it (oh and have I got a deal for you...) but you still need to define the parameters of the test. If you are good with 8x11in at 5 yards, well good for you, but I don't think that is good enough.

    What is the minimum Ransom Rest accuracy of what you consider accurate really doesn't apply because I don't think to many of us have one, and since the accurate 1911 craze of a few years ago, I think that standard has fallen out of favor. 
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    It seems a contention springs from perceived implication.

    I invest maximum effort of time and effort to achieve an ever increasing level of proficiency. My discriptive text is percieved as implying that anyone doing less is inferior and doomed for the
    statistical scrap heep of victim.

    I invest some amount of time and effort to achieve what seems reasonable. That amount being less than maximum is justified by the characterization of those investing more as being paranoid or overzealous or egocentric.

    Some portion of the percieved implications are real and some portion is imagined. 

    My thinking is that the biggest threat to personal and family safety comes from the inherent dangers of motor vehicle travel. A whole host of other threats follow close behind. Like home accidents, fire, health issues, and so forth. With all of the bad news broadcast into our homes, heard word of mouth, or randomly found on-line. Hardly anyone here has been forced into the application of lethal force to protect themselves and/or their families. No one I personally know. Nor anyone of my acquaintance has ever had to use a gun for defense of their lives. This in combination with the fullness of entirety must guide the use of my time and resources according with my own judgement.
    Sometimes it's perceived.  Sometimes it's directly vocalized.  Debate is a great way to learn but when negativity and derisiveness enter into the equation, specially when hyperbole and generalizations (everyone, anyone, we, all of us, all of them) this is not perception anymore, especially when coupled with insults or derogatory language.


  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Most SD pistols and revolvers are a lot more accurate than the hands that hold them. Now if you consider a 32 S&W LONG in a brick accurate enough, then post it (oh and have I got a deal for you...) but you still need to define the parameters of the test. If you are good with 8x11in at 5 yards, well good for you, but I don't think that is good enough.

    What is the minimum Ransom Rest accuracy of what you consider accurate really doesn't apply because I don't think to many of us have one, and since the accurate 1911 craze of a few years ago, I think that standard has fallen out of favor. 
    This is very much true.  I have found very few handguns that are truly inaccurate, specially modern SD firearms.  But, some other factors come into play too, including the elusive "shootability".  

    You might have God's most accurate Pre-War 1911 in your arsenal, well capable of dime sized groups at distance (I'm lucky enough to have one just like that in my safe) and YET I will not carry this gun for social purposes because it bites my hand violently and the sights are WAY too slow to pick up in a big hurry.

    In my mind, a rather complex subject that does not really lend itself well to big blanket statements.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,575 Senior Member
    edited April 2020 #61
    The two statements by me you posted as "derogatory" are not at all, unless someone who considers them so is extremely sensitive.  I have posted no insults, but have been slightly insulted* and subjected to faux pity for not being a gamer and apparently not prepared to defend the lives of myself and those of my loved ones.  I've been compared to Sam, which isn't all that bad, except the comparison to Sam was meant to be derogatory.  To me, Sam was not a figure of ridicule. 


    This thread started out as a question of what one expects from a self defense weapon.  Somehow it drifted to race guns and levels of performance few will able to achieve, and for SELF DEFENSE purposes, IMO, no one needs to.  From self defense to games with guns, which are fun, I've done  them, but they're not SD. Techniques learned in any form of shooting will improve accuracy in general, even formalized shooting like old-time pistol and revolver courses, and rifle matches.  Competitive rifle shooting doesn't pretend to be SD, running and gunning pretends to be about SD.  I don't think it is, all I've seen is the opposite...it's geared toward offense.  I haven't seen it all, so I may have missed the ones on how to deal with a home invasion or an armed mugger attack.  The reality of SD almost always occurs at close range.  

    The run and gun games are excellent training for LEO and the military, it's part of their duty, but citizens, which most of us on the forum are...I just don't see ordinary citizens needing offensive training.


    I've said my piece.  Shoot however you want, prepare for whatever you wish, just please don't ask that I abandon my position and accept yours.


    *To be insulted, you have to respect the credibility and opinion of the insulter. Otherwise, it's just an attempted insult and means little. A slight insult.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
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