I hope to live outside of the city environment within a couple years. The plan is to end up with a place that I can put in a range and actually get some practice in. Currently I am limited to at most one round per second and nothing other than picking the gun up off the bench and putting aimed holes in targets. I dont get to the range anywhere near often enough to be as proficient as quite a few on this forum. Doing things in a controlled manner I can keep most shots within the black of a B-16 target at 30 feet. Generally I keep using the same target for a given handgun for the whole range trip. With my CZ-97 thats usually 50 rounds of 200gr SWC over 4.7gr of WST. It will keep all 50 in the black. I plan on moving the target back with that one. With most others I cant keep a good enough sight picture to want to push much past 30 feet. The 97B has a decent set of sights (not factory) on it that I dont loose. I have been debating looking into fiber optic sights for some of the other handguns. I know that the guns are capable of far better than I can produce right now. I know this because I have watched it happen. Now from a bench I had about an 80% hit rate on an 18" steel gong at 200m at a buddies club with my 629 DX Classic. That was fun. It was about a 25% hit rate offhand though. That gun shoots well for me as long as its running about a max load.
The two statements by me you posted as "derogatory" are not at all, unless someone who considers them so is extremely sensitive. I have posted no insults, but have been slightly insulted* and subjected to faux pity for not being a gamer and apparently not prepared to defend the lives of myself and those of my loved ones. I've been compared to Sam, which isn't all that bad, except the comparison to Sam was meant to be derogatory. To me, Sam was not a figure of ridicule.
This thread started out as a question of what one expects from a self defense weapon. Somehow it drifted to race guns and levels of performance few will able to achieve, and for SELF DEFENSE purposes, IMO, no one needs to. From self defense to games with guns, which are fun, I've done them, but they're not SD. Techniques learned in any form of shooting will improve accuracy in general, even formalized shooting like old-time pistol and revolver courses, and rifle matches. Competitive rifle shooting doesn't pretend to be SD, running and gunning pretends to be about SD. I don't think it is, all I've seen is the opposite...it's geared toward offense. I haven't seen it all, so I may have missed the ones on how to deal with a home invasion or an armed mugger attack. The reality of SD almost always occurs at close range.
The run and gun games are excellent training for LEO and the military, it's part of their duty, but citizens, which most of us on the forum are...I just don't see ordinary citizens needing offensive training.
I've said my piece. Shoot however you want, prepare for whatever you wish, just please don't ask that I abandon my position and accept yours.
*To be insulted, you have to respect the credibility and opinion of the insulter. Otherwise, it's just an attempted insult and means little. A slight insult.
The two statements by me you posted as "derogatory" are not at all, unless someone who considers them so is extremely sensitive. I have posted no insults, but have been slightly insulted* and subjected to faux pity for not being a gamer and apparently not prepared to defend the lives of myself and those of my loved ones. I've been compared to Sam, which isn't all that bad, except the comparison to Sam was meant to be derogatory. To me, Sam was not a figure of ridicule.
This thread started out as a question of what one expects from a self defense weapon. Somehow it drifted to race guns and levels of performance few will able to achieve, and for SELF DEFENSE purposes, IMO, no one needs to. From self defense to games with guns, which are fun, I've done them, but they're not SD. Techniques learned in any form of shooting will improve accuracy in general, even formalized shooting like old-time pistol and revolver courses, and rifle matches. Competitive rifle shooting doesn't pretend to be SD, running and gunning pretends to be about SD. I don't think it is, all I've seen is the opposite...it's geared toward offense. I haven't seen it all, so I may have missed the ones on how to deal with a home invasion or an armed mugger attack. The reality of SD almost always occurs at close range.
The run and gun games are excellent training for LEO and the military, it's part of their duty, but citizens, which most of us on the forum are...I just don't see ordinary citizens needing offensive training.
I've said my piece. Shoot however you want, prepare for whatever you wish, just please don't ask that I abandon my position and accept yours.
*To be insulted, you have to respect the credibility and opinion of the insulter. Otherwise, it's just an attempted insult and means little. A slight insult.
Gene I quote two statements of yours. The first one I agreed with. The second I was asking you to clarify a statement you made that I didn’t understand. I did NOT point to either one of them as derogatory. I must have problems expressing myself. English IS my second language and I guess it shows...
I think I’m clear on the fact that you don’t see “ordinary citizens” needing “offensive training” which for myself I disagree with. But again to each their own. I train as I train and you do the same. We’re both happy, win-win.
Yes, I'm kinda interested, especially in how far this thread had drifted. You shoot great, fine. Go impress someone. You've stated your preferences. I have no intentions of becoming mute especially when people insist their hobbies are vital. It's fun for those who can afford it, but I can't help but think of Preppers...continually preparing for Worst Case that never happens. A harmless form of paranoia that keeps MRE suppliers in business. Paranoia sucks. But not my money, not my time.
I'm way too old and poor to spend a lot of money on games based on extremely unlikely scenarios that never happen in real life. Extreme preparation requires extreme investments in cash and time, so us old, poor people have to prepare for what is likely to happen. Forget tiger attacks. Forget carrying a dozen mags.
Hi Gene,
I think the issue is that statements like these seem derogatory (maybe even a little combative) to folks that do not see things from YOUR perspective. I guess I understand why you think how you think. You've stated many times you live in a small community where you feel safe.
Well, yes you actually did point out these statements as derogatory, just for the record. But we'll put it down to an honest misuse of language or forgetfulness and forget about it and all live happy lives.
Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
Years ago when I was a LEO I soaked up all the firearms training I could possible get. I was single so my new found resources went into training and equipment. My dad was a firearms instructor for the same department.....(was a mediim sized department of 150 officers. I was one of 4 hired out of 650 applicants. ) at the time and was more than happy to get to the range. I bled on that colt, I lost a front sight during a qual and qualled anyway. I broke most of the parts on the colt 1911 I was using at the time, but it was great practice. I carried a 1911, Yep department blessing and all... all this to say I still shoot and shoot with a purpose. When I was in the middle of my cowboy shooting days dad had me back during a firearms training shoot day to “go head to Head” with the trainees. They laughed at the old west guns at first, then saw what a motivated person could do with guns they train with.......
Do normal citizens need “offensive training” yup. May be a time that a normal citizen may need to be something else, and I hope they put real effort into training! Plinking is fine for socializing. I view most shooting as work....I love the work!
Elk, respect for someone who carried the badge. I also soaked up training and was a pretty good shot.
I respect your opinion on civilians needing offensive training, but would like to see examples of when this has been applied. I don't think you'll find any in the real world but I'm open to surprise.
In my opinion, there's a HUGE and significant difference between self defense and offence. Offensive shooting by definition is no longer self defense and I don't know of any laws that justify it, while there are plenty of laws justifying self defense.
Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
Ya know for years this was the only forum I went on. I heard people talk about this place or that but i never went anywhere but here. But the last 6 months or so, I have branched out and gone to other sites. But ya know what? They argue on all forums just like here. What I'm learning to do is listen to both or all sides and make my mind up. Like this one here. I agree with some of every point of view here. I can see Gene's point. He was an LEO for many years and I can see where he wouldn't worry about a lot of accuracy. It probably comes naturally to him. But I can see you that want as accurate a hand gun as possible because like you say, when the Adrenalin kicks in you need all the skill you can muster. They always told us on the plant emergency squad that when that happens your mind defaults to your training. The more training you have the more control you have over the situation. Since your mind is a bit distracted the training keeps you doing what you need to be doing.
Daddy, what's an enabler?
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
Gene, I hope the world you envision and the threats you face are as pleasant and docile as you perceive.
Hell, I wish the same for us all.
You have the right and proclivity to prepare and plan as you see fit for you and yours. May you be willing and able to the task.
But if not...........may there be one nearby who is. For your sake and those around you.
Zee, for some reason I feel compelled to respond to this myopic post. Do you realize I'm 75 years old and running and gunning like a young man is very ill advised? My chances of ever being in a gunfight are infintesimal, but my chances of croaking of a heart attack running about are no better than 1:1. But if I ever find myself in a gunfight, I have a plan for survival.
I'll just speed dial my nearest mall and ask if I can borrow their ninja.
Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
I look for a well made handgun and am content with MCM accuracy....Minute of Center Mass. May only be in my mind but I choose a SW over let's say a Taurus just because I feel the SW is better made. So spending an extra $$$ for reducing the Murphy's Law factor is well spent in my mind.
I look for a well made handgun and am content with MCM accuracy....Minute of Center Mass. May only be in my mind but I choose a SW over let's say a Taurus just because I feel the SW is better made. So spending an extra $$$ for reducing the Murphy's Law factor is well spent in my mind.
Go back and look at some of BigChief"s old posts about Taurus.
Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
Taurus reportedly is getting better. And S&W is reportedly getting worse. Lots of unrest on the S&W Forum about the S&W modern revolvers. Especially that damned locking hole in the side. For me, personally, that's a negative. I had a Taurus .22 DA revolver about 12 years ago, it was OK I guess, but I didn't hold on to it long enough to wring it out. I hear Taurus makes a good 1911, but who doesn't? So I think Taurus is getting better and there's no reason they shouldn't. CS I've heard isn't so great, but I don't know that to be the case. S&W CS?
About 5 years ago, I bought a 442, only new revolver I've bought in years. It's a good, no-hole revolver, good trigger, and I'm happy with it. I seriously doubt I'll ever buy another new revolver of any make.
Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
If I'm looking for accuracy, IMO a revolver in SA is by far the easiest and most\ accurate to shoot, particularly with custom grips that fit your hand, any 1911 would be 2nd choice. Striker fired auto's would be third primarily because DA/SA auto triggers in general suck. A .38/357 with 5" barrel for ME is a pleasure to shoot. Inside 30ft, my auto's in any flavor are satisfactory. Long trigger pulls generally result in flinching, short crisp SA trigger pulls seem to help with accuracy. Having said all that, my car gun and night stand gun are both striker fired, go figure!
If I can put 6 fast hollow points somewhere in the chest cavity at 15 feet in 5-6 seconds.....I'm good with that. Don't need to practice much for that low standard.
The real life trick is knowing when you need to do it.
Mike
"Walking away seems to be a lost art form." N454casull
If I can put 6 fast hollow points somewhere in the chest cavity at 15 feet in 5-6 seconds.....I'm good with that. Don't need to practice much for that low standard.
The real life trick is knowing when you need to do it.
Mike
Agreed. All my SD pistols will easily hold a fist sized group at 7 yards. Plenty for the distances I should encounter.
To me the hold back is my eyesight. The diabetes doesn't help and concentrating on all three focal planes at same time USED to be very easy. Not so much anymore.
The guns are as accurate as they need to be.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill
If I can put 6 fast hollow points somewhere in the chest cavity at 15 feet in 5-6 seconds.....I'm good with that. Don't need to practice much for that low standard.
The real life trick is knowing when you need to do it.
Mike
Agreed. Knowing and the ability to act under extreme stress and chaos is in my opinion far more important than the accuracy of your gun. You can have the absolute most accurate gun in the world but when it all goes wrong you panic and unload a mag into the ceiling well not a lot of good that accurate gun did you.
Now I personally practice for close self defense situations. But after that, well I like to shoot guns so I practice more and do some “fun” training I’ll shoot what is the outer limits of my accuracy. Over the years that number has changed many times in both directions depending on my consistency of practice.
Bottom line, any practice is good, But I can practice the piano all I want if it’s out of tune it’s still going to sound like crap. And while the likelihood hood of me playing at cagrnaghe hall is less than zero I still strive to be the best I can be for my own self satisfaction. Put that to guns I can practice all I want an inaccurate gun is always going to be inaccurate. And always moving forward to be better well, what’s wrong with that?
My accuracy expectations for an SD gun are this: 2.5" at 25 yards (think aspiration). That's neither a Min or a Max but a benchmark or goal if you like. Obviously, standing off hand I'll do way worse but that's on me. But I do expect the firearm to be able to out shoot me any day of the week. Somedays I'll do better and somedays worse. When I do better then Yay but if I do worse, I don't beat myself up over it.
Accurizing a handgun isn't as expensive as it once was. I'm not rich but with a little home tinkering I can expect reasonable accuracy from all my firearms. Will I need that level of accuracy? I hope not but just like a good insurance policy, it's there just in case -- as long as I can do my part. Low cost upgrades with sometimes stellar results, it makes me happy.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
Replies
I think I’m clear on the fact that you don’t see “ordinary citizens” needing “offensive training” which for myself I disagree with. But again to each their own. I train as I train and you do the same. We’re both happy, win-win.
Do normal citizens need “offensive training” yup. May be a time that a normal citizen may need to be something else, and I hope they put real effort into training! Plinking is fine for socializing. I view most shooting as work....I love the work!
I respect your opinion on civilians needing offensive training, but would like to see examples of when this has been applied. I don't think you'll find any in the real world but I'm open to surprise.
In my opinion, there's a HUGE and significant difference between self defense and offence. Offensive shooting by definition is no longer self defense and I don't know of any laws that justify it, while there are plenty of laws justifying self defense.
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
I'll just speed dial my nearest mall and ask if I can borrow their ninja.
About 5 years ago, I bought a 442, only new revolver I've bought in years. It's a good, no-hole revolver, good trigger, and I'm happy with it. I seriously doubt I'll ever buy another new revolver of any make.
accurate to shoot, particularly with custom grips that fit your hand, any 1911 would be 2nd choice. Striker fired auto's would be third primarily because
DA/SA auto triggers in general suck. A .38/357 with 5" barrel for ME is a pleasure to shoot. Inside 30ft, my auto's in any flavor are satisfactory.
Long trigger pulls generally result in flinching, short crisp SA trigger pulls seem to help with accuracy. Having said all that, my car gun and night stand gun are
both striker fired, go figure!
The real life trick is knowing when you need to do it.
Mike
N454casull
To me the hold back is my eyesight. The diabetes doesn't help and concentrating on all three focal planes at same time USED to be very easy. Not so much anymore.
The guns are as accurate as they need to be.
Winston Churchill
How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain