Home Main Category Hunting

I discovered something disturbing while browsing Google!

Doves_IndefinitelyDoves_Indefinitely Posts: 126 Member
Has any person here heard of the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership? There is some very interesting reading at it's website if you want to take a peek.

The alarming message there is that sport hunting in the United States of America supposedly declined by 2 million persons in 2017 while fishing and boating is on the rise. 

There are claims that the Pittman-Robertson Act needs to be updated to promote R3 activities. 

A few questions:

Are there really too many hunters in America now and not enough desirable/accessible places to hunt that are actually worth hunting there?

What deters some people from taking up hunting or giving it up if they are veteran hunters?

Is big money and profitability running a "monopoly" on prime hunting land? 

The idea of R3 sounds great to me: Recruitment, Retention and Reactivation. 

Here is a link with some fascinating reading if you have some spare time and maybe tell us what you think:

https://www.trcp.org/2017/09/07/confirmed-decline-hunter-participation-call-action-sportsmen/

Here are a few quotes from that page of note:


"The Pittman-Robertson Act, which created the excise tax on guns, ammunition, and archery equipment, does not permit using the funds for R3 activities."

"I totally agree.. i’m 49 and have hunted all my life. Access to hunting land is getting very difficult. Recently asked about 10 land-owners for access with no success. May not get a hunting license next year.. With fishing, I can legally fish any stream I want.. the “public” owns the water. Hunting is as you said mostly for the wealthy who can buy up large tracks of land, pay the taxes in it (no small thing in NY) and post it. In my area, there are several 200+ acre tracks of land that are hunted solely by 1 or 2 people."

"Hunting has become a rich mans sport. Thanks to the much commercialized tv shows like Mossy Oak, Realtree, and countless others the cost of guns, bows, and camo is stupid expensive now. These land lease companys have driven the cost to have a piece of hunting ground through the roof. Its the hunting industries own fault that hunting is declining due to the expense most now can not afford. As with anything its all about the all mighty dollar and making money. Don’t let them fool you that they care about conservation and getting people and youth introduced to the outdoors its about their bottom line and profit. Its ashamed our beloved sport and tradition got so commercialized. Let there be no doubt about it I blame the made for TV hunters for the majority of the problems we are now having."


What can people, you or I, do to improve the hunting situation if you feel there is room for improvement? 
«1

Replies

  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,882 Senior Member
    Its all inevitable. Population increases. Public land decreases. Sustenance hunting and gathering, once common, slowly withers away.

    Small private agriculture is replaced by giant corporate conglomerates.

    If one is fortunate. They can either live close by public lands, own or lease their own, or get permission to access private land.

    Sometimes state game agencies can help people seeking opertunity.

    The investment of time and money for the would be hunter will hence forth be incrementally increasing.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,297 Senior Member
    I do think hunting is on the decline, but will soon show an upswing as the “GunCulture 2.0” crowd matures and gets into some of the more traditional shooting sports.  Will that upswing be enough to bring it back to where it was in the late 80’s/ early 90s?  I don't think so.  

    I disagree that hunting has become a “rich man’s” activity.  It is still something that takes more than just being a “November” hunter.  If you don't own or lease the land, you have to work for it- all year round. 

    Most of the hunters I know are not rich.  As a matter of fact, what is pushing land out of reach is rich people buying land as they flee the city cesspools and closing off the land they buy to all hunting.  They don’t hunt the land, and dont let anyone else do it either.  They also drive up the price of the land as well as they just fling “California Price” money at current landowners.

    One of the biggest problems outside of that is slob hunters/ poachers/ trespassers.  All it takes is one slob tearing stuff up to get a landowner to lock the gates and say “No” to anyone that asks again.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 6,322 Senior Member
    When I bought my ranch in New York several neighbors approached me and told me they had been hunting my property for decades and could they continue to do so.  Being neighborly I said yes.  Within months all of them had hugely abused the privilege, bringing along friends, relatives and sometimes just sending folks to my property to hunt without asking me.  

    I had folks that I had NO idea who they were roaming my land and when I approached them while they were trespassing they would tell me they had permission from the owner!!!  Many “neighbors” were using my land as their own amusement park, leaving trash behind and shooting right behind my house and close to my pastures.  One dude zipped through my barn doing about 30 miles an hour on his 4 wheeler with his 4 year old kid on his lap.  If he had gotten into an accident because of his own stupidity I’m sure he would have sued me in a big hurry.

    The land got posted FAST after that and I let ALL the neighbors know that there would be no further hunting or ANY other kind of activity allowed on my property.  When they all asked why I enumerated the incidents that prompted this.  Created a lot of bad feelings in a real hurry even though it was clearly their fault I was forced to do this.

    After that a few new folks, came by to ask.  I was approached all the time while working around the barn by folks that felt free to just drive on to my property.  When asked if I would allow them to hunt my land I would reply, I have 600 70 lb bales of hay being delivered tomorrow, you have time to help get them up to the haymow?  Blank stare...  Ok, so how much are you willing to contribute to my 5 figure tax bill, my costs of running this place and substantial insurance premiums?  Blank stare...  So the answer is nope...

    Unfurtunately as I found out over the years this is a typical experience by many, if not most, landowners.  
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,297 Senior Member
    As a landowner and a lease-ee of hunting land, I have seen both sides of what GunNut says- and it boggles my mind how some people treat landowners and the land.

     The first interactions I had with one of the neighbors on my land was him asking me if his grandson could “continue” hunting pigs on the property.  Continue?  I have a close relationship with the person that has owned the land for the last 75 years, and the ONLY person that was supposed to have access was the rancher running cows on there.  Uh... no.   Then within 3 months the neighbor trespassed on my land and cut down trees.  So that “No” is never going to change for him.

    As someone that leases land for hunting- I am the first in line to help fix fences, cut brush, manage the land, etc...  and one of the things the owner wants us to be is a very visible ARMED presence on the land to deter the poachers and trespassers.  One of the things we had to do was remove a gate a neighbor cut in the fence and use a tractor to cut trenches through the ATV trails they created on the land.

    So, yeah.  We (as a group of hunters and outdoorsmen) have the cause of our problems in our midst.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,882 Senior Member
    Membership and contributions to private conservation groups can help said groups procure and secure wildlife habitat. Sometimes with potential access for hunting, sometimes not. However, the habitat is generally considered essential for wildlife survival. One example of such a groups is the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. I was a member of that one for a time, and saw that they did some good. Careful research should precede selection.

    I wouldn't exactly chracterize the future of hunting as reserved for the wealthy. I would certainly not hesitate to use words like fortunate and privileged in its stead. As always the predicting the future is a pursuit subject to mistakes. As it stands presently. It remains accessible to those of medium means and commensurate time.
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 6,322 Senior Member
    edited May 2020 #7
    Also this varies by state. In Vermont and New Hampshire there is a TON of public land available in the Green and White Mountains. Also in NH the laws are favorable to hunters by allowing you to hunt ANY private land that is not posted and strongly limiting the liability to the landowner so there is little downside to allowing folks on your land.

     In New York by comparison, most public land is closed to hunting in the southern half of the state and as a landowner you will be nailed to a cross if an idiot trespasser hunter falls off his tree stand by his own stupidity,.  The landowner is still liable unless the property is clearly posted and you make ALL efforts to lock folks out. You're even liable if some fool trespasses on to your land and kids gets hurt by your horses in your own fenced pasture. They are an "attractive nuisance".  I had folks just drive up my driveway and harass my horses trying to "pet them" all the time.
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • Six-GunSix-Gun Senior Member Posts: 8,152 Senior Member
    Multiple factors are at play here:

    - The Baby Boomer age-out peak is rapidly approaching.  That is, as people hit their 70's, they grow ever closer to quitting hunting altogether.  The Baby Boomers represent a very large segment of the remaining hunting population, and they are starting to hang up their bows and rifles.  This will have significant play in the number of hunters afield, and will negatively impact available Pittman-Robinson dollars for the foreseeable future.That will, in-turn, impact how much money is available to states for leasing/buying more public lands from private landowners for hunter access.

    - In a similar light, Millenials are not picking up field arms the way prior generations once did.  This is a problem, as Baby Boomers are not being adequately replaced in the field to sustain the hunter population and the pro-hunting advocacy that comes with it.  Again, this strains conservation agency dollars at the state and local level.  It also hurts private conservation organizations like Ducks Unlimited and the National Wild Turkey Federation, as membership inevitably dwindles in parallel.  That's a lot of money lost for buying and maintaining critical habitat.

    - Public lands, and State Trust lands in particular, are being sold or auctioned off to private interests.  Once their gone, the odds of those lands coming back into public holding are almost zero.  Utah is one of the biggest offenders, having sold off something like 90% of their federally granted state trust lands for quick money.  That increases pressure on the remaining public lands, particularly near urban areas where more people tend to stay close to home to hunt and populations are ever-increasing.  Lack of unpressured access is a big factor in why people give up hunting.

    The good news?  Women have become a surprisingly important and growing demographic in hunting and other outdoor sports.  I personally have seen a healthy number of female-centric hunting pages popping up on Facebook, and several women's hunting clothing lines have appeared in recent years (She Apparel, Prois, etc.).  The girls may end up being the saving grace. 

      Another discovery in recent years that can help: young adults are the most likely group to stick with hunting if they are properly introduced.  We've spent a lot of time and focus on youth hunters, but traditionally neglected young adults (20+ year old).  As it turns out, that was a mistake.  Because young adults have some level of financial independence, they can afford their own tags, guns, bows, etc. and have a better retention rate than youth hunters.  State agencies are shifting their focus accordingly, and that could bring in some of those Millenials who would be otherwise lost to video games.   
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,087 Senior Member
    edited May 2020 #9
    I cannot count the hours I have spent baling and putting up hay, riding and repairing fence, setting posts and stringing fence, working cattle and clearing fence rows all for the opportunity to hunt some choice property. Sweat Equity...and the land owner doesn't forget those folks who busted their ass to help them

    In the realm of Public Land...Kansas has tons of it and if you wait for the opening weekend crowds to go home, You can have it all pretty much to yourself...

    In MI, we live in one of several National Forests....so there's that...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 6,322 Senior Member
    edited May 2020 #10
    Jayhawker said:
    I cannot count the hours I have spent baling and putting up hay, riding and repairing fence, setting posts and stringing fence, working cattle and clearing fence rows all for the opportunity to hunt some choice property. Sweat Equity...and the land owner doesn't forget those folks who busted their ass to help them

    In the realm of Public Land...Kansas has tons of it and if you wait for the opening weekend crowds to go home, You can have it all pretty much to yourself...

    In MI, we live in one of several National Forests....so there's that...
    What he said.  My next door neighbor was a great handyman.  He called me up and told me that the last time he was with me in the barn he had noticed one of my faucets was corroded and he had taken it upon himself to buy a new was me and install it.  He was always around anytime I needed help with anything big and he was always asking if I needed help with anything.  He kept an eye on things when I traveled and my wife was alone with the kids.

    Guess who had basically free access to my whole property for hunting...
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • Doves_IndefinitelyDoves_Indefinitely Posts: 126 Member
    edited May 2020 #11
    Membership and contributions to private conservation groups can help said groups procure and secure wildlife habitat. Sometimes with potential access for hunting, sometimes not. However, the habitat is generally considered essential for wildlife survival. One example of such a groups is the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. I was a member of that one for a time, and saw that they did some good. Careful research should precede selection.

    I wouldn't exactly chracterize the future of hunting as reserved for the wealthy. I would certainly not hesitate to use words like fortunate and privileged in its stead. As always the predicting the future is a pursuit subject to mistakes. As it stands presently. It remains accessible to those of medium means and commensurate time.
    I must confess that a few individuals do bad things to ruin things for most others. So, no, I can't fault landowners for posting against hunting or saying no to people who knock on their doors. 

    It would seem that hunting as it stands now is not a privilege recommended for minimum wage earners (McDonald's burger flippers and janitors) and social security recipients to pursue. I've inquired to one Tx deer ranch two months ago about a possible doe-only shoot at about $1,000 for the package to take two management does. All booked up already for the coming season. There is public land but what is the amount of trouble to hunt there? Are permits required? Is there a limited number of hunters allowed per season to hunt public areas as BLM and USFS land? Are there even enough animals there to make it worthwhile? Is dove hunting even worth a hoot on any public lands? One can hunt doves on game ranches for about $100-$200/day if they are not already booked up. 

    I will not pay $2,000 on up to hunt deer a day or a couple. No way! I can purchase a couple of good pedigreed Lab puppies with championship lines for that amount of wampum. Even those with money might have to wait in line to get to hunt. There still seems to be more wanna-be hunters than the number of hunting opportunities that are available readily. Some hunters might have also given up hunting due to economic restraints. They simply don't have the means anymore. Some are also simply not willing to pay the high admission fees to put venison or duck in their freezers. They just say the heck with it. 

    No longer is the Great American Outdoors "free" or "fee-free" even for native born American citizens. I get livid when one has to pay a $5 or $10 fee to park at a public beach or a public park for day use. What does it usually cost a trailer boater nowadays to launch at a public lake for day use? $25? $50? 

     As a dog owner, leash-free public areas for a person to enjoy his well-trained-and-obedient canine companion out of doors is now far and few between. It seems like MONEY now owns The Once Great American Outdoors. There use to be a rather un-amusing phrase about a "bureaucrat hiding behind every bush". It's a sad state of affairs that Teddy Roosevelt, John Muir and Henry David Thoreau would frown over if they could see it today. The OUTDOORS now is a real pay-to-play game. 

    I wish the GOOD (not slobs) common American People could take back America once again regardless of income level. How about an "equal opportunity" program to hunt or otherwise use the outdoors as a playground? 
  • Six-GunSix-Gun Senior Member Posts: 8,152 Senior Member
    edited May 2020 #12
    You actually broached another issue we have with the public lands out my way (and other states have as well.)  It seems a lot of non-hunting folks think that "WMA" = "Walk My Ass-Around".  That is, they think that Wildlife Management Areas = public parks, and mull around right in the middle of hunting season, or walk their dogs in there.  They particularly seem to like doing this during prime game movement times.  

    I once was goose hunting and ready to take a shot when the goose I was tracking suddenly started veering off.  I got the shot off, only to look behind me and see a woman skittering out as quickly as she could with her dog at the sound of the shot.  Odds are good she had no idea she was in a public hunting area and about 50 yards behind me until that gun went off.

    States like Colorado have started implementing a requirement that certain public lands now require a valid hunting or fishing permit to access them during the season.  This does two important things: 1) greatly deters casual dickarounds from walking on public hunting areas during the season unless they want to pay to play, and 2) adds to the Pittman-Robinson federal dollars those states receive by increasing license sales when folks do decide they're willing to pay for that access as non-hunters.  I'll bet the number of motorbikers and walkabouts is going to drop precipitously with this new regulation in place.
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,087 Senior Member
    edited May 2020 #13
    Oh please...SOMEBODY has to take care of those public parks and beaches...how do you suggest those workers get paid? Or are YOU going to do it for free?
    And considering the pigs people are, without those people, those public parks and beaches would be dumps you wouldn't want to visit in the first place

    I pay nothing to launch my drift boat or take out on any of the our rivers...I do pay a guy $25.00 to spot my truck and trailer at the takeout downstream...but that's for MY convenience.

    My LIFETIME National Park/Forest Pass cost $10.00

    My pass for ANY State Park in Michigan costs me a staggering $11.00 a year...this includes any state run boat ramp on any of the multitude of lakes in the state

    My fishing license is $11.00 a year

    My Native American wife, gets her hunting ,fishing,trapping and gathering permits all for $5.00 a year..and has access to hundreds of thousands of acres of tribal trust lands..

    I am a retiree/ social security recipient that simply lives within my means and I can comfortably engage in any outdoor activity I choose.

    I guess it all depends on where you choose to live
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Six-GunSix-Gun Senior Member Posts: 8,152 Senior Member
    edited May 2020 #14
    Yeah, those funds are critical to maintaining the public areas.  When Colorado CPW came into existence by merging the game and parks departments into one socialized entity, somehow the hunters continued to be the only ones paying for anything while everyone else got free use. 

    Needless to say, that grated a lot of hunters who were paying for hunting licenses so that the granola gang could tromp all over their hunting grounds and crap in the outhouses funded by the said hunters.  An ATV'er had to buy annual trail use tag for his vehicle, in addition to their hunting license, while the person spooking his elk on a mountain bike paid not one red cent to ride it there.  The new hunting/fishing license requirement for all users finally does something to get contributions from the parks gang that has lived high on the hunter's hog for way too long, or remove them altogether.
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,882 Senior Member
    There's hoops to jump through. And monetary costs to endure. The intetnet has made information access easily available. I would suggest the Texas state game & fish agency website as step one.
  • Doves_IndefinitelyDoves_Indefinitely Posts: 126 Member
    edited May 2020 #16
    Six-Gun said:
    Multiple factors are at play here:

    - The Baby Boomer age-out peak is rapidly approaching.  That is, as people hit their 70's, they grow ever closer to quitting hunting altogether.  The Baby Boomers represent a very large segment of the remaining hunting population, and they are starting to hang up their bows and rifles.  This will have significant play in the number of hunters afield, and will negatively impact available Pittman-Robinson dollars for the foreseeable future.That will, in-turn, impact how much money is available to states for leasing/buying more public lands from private landowners for hunter access.

    - In a similar light, Millenials are not picking up field arms the way prior generations once did.  This is a problem, as Baby Boomers are not being adequately replaced in the field to sustain the hunter population and the pro-hunting advocacy that comes with it.  Again, this strains conservation agency dollars at the state and local level.  It also hurts private conservation organizations like Ducks Unlimited and the National Wild Turkey Federation, as membership inevitably dwindles in parallel.  That's a lot of money lost for buying and maintaining critical habitat.

    - Public lands, and State Trust lands in particular, are being sold or auctioned off to private interests.  Once their gone, the odds of those lands coming back into public holding are almost zero.  Utah is one of the biggest offenders, having sold off something like 90% of their federally granted state trust lands for quick money.  That increases pressure on the remaining public lands, particularly near urban areas where more people tend to stay close to home to hunt and populations are ever-increasing.  Lack of unpressured access is a big factor in why people give up hunting.

    The good news?  Women have become a surprisingly important and growing demographic in hunting and other outdoor sports.  I personally have seen a healthy number of female-centric hunting pages popping up on Facebook, and several women's hunting clothing lines have appeared in recent years (She Apparel, Prois, etc.).  The girls may end up being the saving grace. 

      Another discovery in recent years that can help: young adults are the most likely group to stick with hunting if they are properly introduced.  We've spent a lot of time and focus on youth hunters, but traditionally neglected young adults (20+ year old).  As it turns out, that was a mistake.  Because young adults have some level of financial independence, they can afford their own tags, guns, bows, etc. and have a better retention rate than youth hunters.  State agencies are shifting their focus accordingly, and that could bring in some of those Millenials who would be otherwise lost to video games.   
    Those "dam" video games! Taking away interest in being out in Mother Nature! The young people are too shut in these days. The other big problem in America is lack of immigration control: letting foreigners come in and buy out our beloved "playgrounds" for outdoor fun. Fun as we baby-boomers once knew it is an endangered species in itself. There used to be a time when American boys were boys: they loved to be out in nature. A boy, his dog, his straw hat and his gun. They have been now mollycoddled with techo-gadgets. 
  • Doves_IndefinitelyDoves_Indefinitely Posts: 126 Member
    edited May 2020 #17
    There's hoops to jump through. And monetary costs to endure. The intetnet has made information access easily available. I would suggest the Texas state game & fish agency website as step one.
    Yes, earlyagain, agreed, "playing outside" is simply a picnic no more. It's no 3rd-grade cakewalk: it's no Sunday afternoon in the city park. Hunting is still far from the CHEAPEST and MOST-READILY-AVAILABLE form of outdoor play. It's still relatively simpler and less costly to dip a line in "some body of water". Catching quality fish, or any fish at all, is a whole 'nother horse of another color. Going boating is more readily available too. The public owns the bodies of water. The private sector, on the other hand, holds most of the land with game animals and birds, and figuratively, holds the keys to it. It's not too hard, it's certainly not rocket science, to find some public trail to go hike with Rover on. Poor Rover might have to be leashed and you might have to pay $5-$10 to park your truck for a day. If Rover is a big, strong dog, he can pull you uphill on a trail so you can cheat on your outdoor exercise!   :#

    I'll definitely poke around the fish n game website. I might be willing to pony up the entry costs associated with dove hunting. Of all the game species to hunt, doves should be least costly and the most accessible, relatively speaking. I know game ranches charge much less for upland birds than they do deer and other big game. I've priced several of them. Some timber companies lease their land to hunters. Deer, I really don't know about yet unless I can find access on public land. Doves seem a little more promising for me still. 
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,452 Senior Member
    I will agree with the other landowners on here. People who want to use and wreck your stuff are a lot of the problem.
    But I think the main reason is that the next generation is smaller. Boomers had a lot of kids, X had 2 or 1. There are fewer little kids to take out and it has been that way for a while. Boy scouting let girls in for the money, there are not enough boys to support the behemoth it grew into. Less kids means less youth programs.
    Add the urbanization of the rural that the internet brought.
    The entitlement poachers/ATV riders getting land posted.
    The loss of habitat due to the small family farms not being as prevalent causing a lack of small game and varmint opportunities.
    In PAs case, the overpopulation of deer that will not change because hunters expect to see 30 a day which was never the norm 40 years ago wiping out the understory in the woods leaving no place for grouse.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • Doves_IndefinitelyDoves_Indefinitely Posts: 126 Member
    edited May 2020 #19
    The human race has really muffed up super bad this century. Women doing drugs while pregnant. Babies born deformed, zombie and ret_rded. The world is only as good or bad as people make it. Only Mother Nature will fix things in her own good time and we may not like how she will do it. The overpopulation of America is due to letting too many unsavory foreigners in who don't give a hoot about American values and old-fashioned American fun ways. Folks acting brain-dead walk around with smartphones in their hands like babies have pacifiers in their mouths. It makes me want to heave. The shame of it all!  :'(
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,452 Senior Member
    Having had to deal with Americans in an at home service industry for 32 years, I can tell you for a fact that the vast majority of unsavory, lazy, mind blank, persons who dont care about American values is home grown.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 6,322 Senior Member
    Having had to deal with Americans in an at home service industry for 32 years, I can tell you for a fact that the vast majority of unsavory, lazy, mind blank, persons who dont care about American values is home grown.
    BINGO!!!!!
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,453 Senior Member
    I've had my share of trespassers/hunters on my farm over the years. And as the years passed, it has gotten worse. So I've upped the ante on doing so. My hay fields next to the road are not fenced off from the road so I have to deal with anus chapeaus that run over the NO TRESPASSING signs to access the creek bottom. Had a few vehicles towed out after calling the Sheriff's office to get a deputy up there to do that.
    My nephew who lives in FL and one of his employees have deer hunted up here for over a decade and have helped out with making it better with food plots and such. They take care  of the land and don't leave trash all over the place. A few people I know well are allowed to hunt deer here AFTER my nephew and his employee are finished hunting.
    Raccoon hunters are another group of anus chapeaus entirely. I've had gates knocked down and fences cut for them to access the creek bottoms. Most are from well North of me around Knoxville with a local hunter 'guiding' them. They don't like being arrested and ticketed for trespassing; tough stuff. And replacing a a 16  foot steel gate ain't cheap when figuring in replacing gate and gate posts by a contractor. I've had trucks impounded by the Sheriff's office until repairs were made. Word finally got out and I'm not bothered any more about that mess.
    Tennessee has quite a few public lands that can be hunted, and some do require a small fee to do so. But most include a rifle range, camping areas, and other amenities paid for by those fees, so it's a small cost overall. And those TWRA Wildlife Management Areas include deer, hog, dove, quail, squirrel, rabbit, grouse, raccoon, duck, and snipe hunting. And duck and goose hunting on the rivers doesn't cost you any fees. TWRA boat ramps are free, for the most part, and paid for by hunting and fishing license fees. But the slob hunters and fishermen have made fees rise due to having to clean up areas after they've gone home. Getting caught trashing up these areas with litter will lighten your wallet considerably. Being too lazy to put your trash in provided receptacles has a cost, one way or the other.
    And in TN there are several levels of trespass. Just simple trespassing isn't a big thing, but being armed and trespassing can get you a criminal trespass citation, and can be a big deal.

      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 8,111 Senior Member
    I used to know a very nice lady who owned a ranch in eastern Colorado.  She would let Mike and me shoot prairie dogs on her place.  Her son let me hunt antelope on his place.  His only stipulation was that I had to kill five (true story).

    Both lived in houses that many of us would probably not be comfortable in, and certainly not want to live in it.  And, their homes were way out in the middle of nowhere.  But, it was the life they knew, and I suppose they were used to it.

    I had a phone conversation with this lady once.  She was a widow, and allowed that when her husband died, she was about a million dollars in debt.

    I don't know why she didn't try to make a little off of hunting.  I suspect she surely could use it.  I also suspect that a lot of these so called "rich ranchers" have had some pretty lean years, and it was money from hunting that made the difference between sinking and swimming.

    I will agree that $1000 to shoot a couple of management does is extreme, but if you go to the Texas Parks and Wildlife web page, or check with some of the local field offices, you may find cheaper hunting.,

    Just keep in mind that there's always 2 sides to every story.
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • Doves_IndefinitelyDoves_Indefinitely Posts: 126 Member
    edited May 2020 #24
    I used to know a very nice lady who owned a ranch in eastern Colorado.  She would let Mike and me shoot prairie dogs on her place.  Her son let me hunt antelope on his place.  His only stipulation was that I had to kill five (true story).

    Both lived in houses that many of us would probably not be comfortable in, and certainly not want to live in it.  And, their homes were way out in the middle of nowhere.  But, it was the life they knew, and I suppose they were used to it.

    I had a phone conversation with this lady once.  She was a widow, and allowed that when her husband died, she was about a million dollars in debt.

    I don't know why she didn't try to make a little off of hunting.  I suspect she surely could use it.  I also suspect that a lot of these so called "rich ranchers" have had some pretty lean years, and it was money from hunting that made the difference between sinking and swimming.

    I will agree that $1000 to shoot a couple of management does is extreme, but if you go to the Texas Parks and Wildlife web page, or check with some of the local field offices, you may find cheaper hunting.,

    Just keep in mind that there's always 2 sides to every story.
    Shows like Dallas on TV gave Americans the notion that beef ranchers are fat and live high on the hog. With prices of meat in stores one might believe it to be true. What overhead does a rancher really have? Who's making money when porterhouse steak is priced $15/lb. in California? Is imported beef hurting the American cattleman? 
  • Doves_IndefinitelyDoves_Indefinitely Posts: 126 Member
    edited May 2020 #25
    Having had to deal with Americans in an at home service industry for 32 years, I can tell you for a fact that the vast majority of unsavory, lazy, mind blank, persons who dont care about American values is home grown.
    Suffice it to say, foreigners, mostly from the Asian continent, bought out all the once-affordable real estate in California. They monopolize banking and the lodging industry in that state as well. I knew a woman in San Francisco who rented a studio in the Noe for only $285/mo. in 1978. The last I heard that same studio was going for $3,500/mo. back in 2006 so go figure. Before the Asian invasion, California business was run chiefly by Americans of western European ancestry and cost of living there was reasonable for many a working stiff to live there. Even as late as 1997, I could buy porterhouse steak for a mere $5/pound at an opulent supermarket in prestigious Marin County where I lived then. No more. When the Chinese ran only laundry and restaurants and small shops in Chinatown and nothing else all was dandy. The Democratic Left had zero border control. California was great under GOP Gov.s George Deukmejian, Ronald Reagan and Pete Wilson. It nose-dived under Gray Davis and talk about gun-grabbing there, don't get me started, please. 
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,453 Senior Member
    Shows like Dallas on TV gave Americans the notion that beef ranchers are fat and live high on the hog. With prices of meat in stores one might believe it to be true. What overhead does a rancher really have? Who's making money when porterhouse steak is priced $15/lb. in California? Is imported beef hurting the American cattleman? 
    What overhead does a cattleman have? Glad you asked. Priced tractors in the 70-120 h.p. range lately? Didn't think so. How about hay mowers, tedders, hay rakes and bailers? How about stock trailers and trucks big enough to pull them? Vet bills for inoculation against diseases like anthrax, black leg, and a host of other diseases are pretty expensive, too. And the danged Fed. Gov. tacks on a few fees at the stockbarn on sales as well as fees paid to the stockbarn for selling/auctioning off the cattle. And that equipment needs to be stored under a roof, as does the hay. Priced metal buildings lately?
    And if you think the cattleman is making a killing per head on cattle, here's one of many sites on the prices paid for live cattle at the stock barns. Prices shown are per hundredweight or per 100 lbs. on the hoof. You want to piss and moan about supermarket prices, blame the feedlots and meat processors. The cattlemen aren't the problem with those high prices.
    https://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/lswkssum.pdf
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • Doves_IndefinitelyDoves_Indefinitely Posts: 126 Member
    edited May 2020 #27
    tennmike said:
    Shows like Dallas on TV gave Americans the notion that beef ranchers are fat and live high on the hog. With prices of meat in stores one might believe it to be true. What overhead does a rancher really have? Who's making money when porterhouse steak is priced $15/lb. in California? Is imported beef hurting the American cattleman? 
    What overhead does a cattleman have? Glad you asked. Priced tractors in the 70-120 h.p. range lately? Didn't think so. How about hay mowers, tedders, hay rakes and bailers? How about stock trailers and trucks big enough to pull them? Vet bills for inoculation against diseases like anthrax, black leg, and a host of other diseases are pretty expensive, too. And the danged Fed. Gov. tacks on a few fees at the stockbarn on sales as well as fees paid to the stockbarn for selling/auctioning off the cattle. And that equipment needs to be stored under a roof, as does the hay. Priced metal buildings lately?
    And if you think the cattleman is making a killing per head on cattle, here's one of many sites on the prices paid for live cattle at the stock barns. Prices shown are per hundredweight or per 100 lbs. on the hoof. You want to piss and moan about supermarket prices, blame the feedlots and meat processors. The cattlemen aren't the problem with those high prices.
    https://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/lswkssum.pdf
    Thanks for informing me tenmike, I believe you...the "Marlboro man" on the horse under the cowboy hat is not the one ripping me off at the butcher block or the deli where sliced sandwich roast beef is $9 -$13/lb. Most of the time I buy Walmart ground beef from $3.85 - $4.20/lb. in bulk. Lean. 7% fat. From Australia, Brazil, Mexico and/or New Zealand. Do ranchers get FEMA help from disasters as do farmers? Walmart skinless chicken breast usually under $2/lb. 

    Pricey stuff for me like black angus steak, American grown, is a treat once in a while. Deli meat for me is a treat too. Canned chicken and canned pink salmon is my daily lunch fare. I stay away from tuna in cans. High mercury. 

    Apparently Australia and those other countries have much lower overhead for beef production. What drives the beef market prices? 
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,453 Senior Member
    That 'angus beef' thing is all about marketing, and people have fallen for it hook, line, and sinker. Hereford, Brangus, Santa Gertrudis, and dairy cattle steers, and other breeds make high quality beef, too. I KNOW this because I've either raised them myself, or bought young weaned calves and put them on good quality pasture and raised them, and hauled them to a custom butcher for processing. They ate quality grass and a little feed on the side. Great marbled steaks and plenty of fat in the other cuts, too.
    And having worked in a slaughter house, I can tell you that a lot of that marbled fat from grain fed feedlot cattle has to be trimmed off as there's entirely too much of it. It goes into hamburger meat that is too lean as is from poorer grade cattle. Fat makes the hamburger stick together and keeps it from drying out into a hockey puck during cooking, and fat does add flavor to the meat, and same for steaks, roasts, and other cuts.
    Australia, New Zealand, and Brazil supply a huge amount of hamburger meat for the fast food places in the U.S. and worldwide. And it's cheaper than the domestic hamburger. 
    And I have no problem whatsoever pointing a 'knife hand' at the meat processors in the U.S. for keeping beef, pork, and chicken prices high. Prices at the  stock barns fluctuate due to supply and demand, but those prices at the supermarket don't rise and fall with those prices because the processors keep the prices artificially high and only drop price when the 'pipeline' starts backing up.
    The producer is at the mercy of the feedlot buyers and the meat processors in this mess.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,087 Senior Member
    Yep...and to be labeled "Angus" beef, the critter it came from only has to be a certain percentage Angus...Aside from the Black Angus everybody thinks about, there are Red Angus and Black Faced Baldies that qualify as Angus beef...

    Basically, once you have the hide off it, it can be anything you want
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Doves_IndefinitelyDoves_Indefinitely Posts: 126 Member
    edited May 2020 #30
    tennmike said:
    That 'angus beef' thing is all about marketing, and people have fallen for it hook, line, and sinker. Hereford, Brangus, Santa Gertrudis, and dairy cattle steers, and other breeds make high quality beef, too. I KNOW this because I've either raised them myself, or bought young weaned calves and put them on good quality pasture and raised them, and hauled them to a custom butcher for processing. They ate quality grass and a little feed on the side. Great marbled steaks and plenty of fat in the other cuts, too.
    And having worked in a slaughter house, I can tell you that a lot of that marbled fat from grain fed feedlot cattle has to be trimmed off as there's entirely too much of it. It goes into hamburger meat that is too lean as is from poorer grade cattle. Fat makes the hamburger stick together and keeps it from drying out into a hockey puck during cooking, and fat does add flavor to the meat, and same for steaks, roasts, and other cuts.
    Australia, New Zealand, and Brazil supply a huge amount of hamburger meat for the fast food places in the U.S. and worldwide. And it's cheaper than the domestic hamburger. 
    And I have no problem whatsoever pointing a 'knife hand' at the meat processors in the U.S. for keeping beef, pork, and chicken prices high. Prices at the  stock barns fluctuate due to supply and demand, but those prices at the supermarket don't rise and fall with those prices because the processors keep the prices artificially high and only drop price when the 'pipeline' starts backing up.
    The producer is at the mercy of the feedlot buyers and the meat processors in this mess.
    I use my George Foreman grill for those lean hamburger patties and it does indeed have to be topped with BBQ sauce or steak sauce to make it palatable.  Otherwise, that lean cheap beef goes into pasta sauce or stroganoff for protein value. I'm struggling with weight control and have to opt for lean meats for protein as well as eggs. No, these lean meats have no flavor: they have to be doctored like wild game. Using sweet sauces on dry meats to make them edible adds calories in the form of sugars so it's a dietary battle. 

    it then sounds like meat processors and feedlots aren't gouging in foreign beef-producing nations as in America. Much of that cheap, lean hamburger I buy is raised on mostly if not all grass so grain is out of the equation mostly if not altogether. Australia must have a huge supply of cheap grass. Is grazing and watering beef still more costly in America than to graze it and water it in some other country? California farmers and ranchers have a lot of trouble keeping crops and stock watered during droughts and droughts have forced some out of business altogether. Think of the notorious drought of CA just last decade.

    There is a shipping, handling and refrigeration cost for meat from overseas. 
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,452 Senior Member


    Basically, once you have the hide off it, it can be anything you want
    :D:smiley:

    Angus beef marketing is sold to people who are Angus, with a silent G. My opinion is you are getting a better grade of beef from field bred that are taken care of. The only reason I like to eat Angus beef is because they are such mean bastages. Limousines and Charolais are just as stubborn, but they arent evil.

    Your cheap US burger dropped off with the demise of the small milk farm, Bessie keeled over you loaded her into the trailer and off she went to become chain market burger.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
This discussion has been closed.
Magazine Cover

GET THE MAGAZINE Subscribe & Save

Temporary Price Reduction

SUBSCRIBE NOW

Give a Gift   |   Subscriber Services

PREVIEW THIS MONTH'S ISSUE

GET THE NEWSLETTER Join the List and Never Miss a Thing.

Get the top Guns & Ammo stories delivered right to your inbox every week.

Advertisement