I think this last shot illustrates a problem with jugs as a testing medium. I've kinda/sorta come to equate a standard gallon jug to about 4-5 inches of ballistic gel, but it's a long way from a perfect match.
On a deer, pig, hominid, etc..., you might have a rib to contend with on the way in - no real obstacle, and the bullet hasn't expanded yet.
By the time you get to another rib with a fully expanded bullet, the bullet's done all the good work it will do for you, and we don't really care if it stops at that point.
The juncture of two jugs pressed together is probably a reasonable approximation of the resistance you'd get from a rib and chest wall - and you're hitting it with a wider, gently curving bullet face that's spreading the load. We've inserted the opposite wall resistance into the test before we've collected oour "gel equivalent" penetration data.
I've seen a lot of jug rows where dents have told me that it was this jug juncture that stopped a widely-expanded bullet more than water. A good example being a 10mm Silvertip, which for damn sure should have enough energy to punch more than the 3 jugs it does - it just gets turned into a .75 caliber pancake that the plastic can handle. Maybe it's a good simulator for light bone and gristle, but not the stuff inside the chest walls.
They have the saving grace of being cheap and repeatable. . .(shrug)
AROUND!!! The alloy there is soft enough you'll probably get SOME expansion and a deeper dive.
But better still, find some solid WC's. The potential problem with a hollow base and short barrels - especially the way you plan to load them - is that there's enough residual pressure after the bullet exits to blow the stern of a soft HB bullet all out of kilter.
Good thing on your test though - it proves the soft stuff will expand at some lower speeds.
I already have the Wadcutter Target Load that does what you speak and I’ve already tested them in jugs with my 340 M&P thread. I don’t need to reinvent the wheel.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
I already have the Wadcutter Target Load that does what you speak and I’ve already tested them in jugs with my 340 M&P thread. I don’t need to reinvent the wheel.
Speaking of reinventing the wheel, do you keep a record book or data book on all the tests you do (so as not to repeat tests that have already been done)?
I only ask because when I started reloading I never kept track of all the different load recipes I came up with and used. Since I use a variety of calibers in competition, sometimes I would forget what load performed really well and which ones sucked. Now I record everything so I don't have to cover old ground 😂 I'm more forgetful these days.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
I already have the Wadcutter Target Load that does what you speak and I’ve already tested them in jugs with my 340 M&P thread. I don’t need to reinvent the wheel.
Speaking of reinventing the wheel, do you keep a record book or data book on all the tests you do (so as not to repeat tests that have already been done)?
I only ask because when I started reloading I never kept track of all the different load recipes I came up with and used. Since I use a variety of calibers in competition, sometimes I would forget what load performed really well and which ones sucked. Now I record everything so I don't have to cover old ground 😂 I'm more forgetful these days.
I try to keep a good record for the most part. That’s why I take so many pics.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
If it was me, I'd try to get those 110s and 125s zinging pretty quick. They don't have the weight behind them, so might as well substitute some speed in the energy equation. For the 158s, I doubt they can get going very fast without hitting +P level. They're taking up some room in the case. I'd be curious to see what their expansion is at lower speed. My guess would be not much. But could be wrong.
A certain Chiropractor decided I had too much free time on my hands and was spending too much time in the brothels selling my body.
[I've seen the photos 🤣]
I got my TV finally, it works great 😂
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
Actually thought these would be dramatic..............and then it plowed through 4 jugs. As I stood up, I was wondering how the Hell a 110gr bullet out penetrated a 125gr bullet. Literally baffled!!! Until I poured the bullet out of the fourth jug and saw darn near zero expansion.
Went ahead and grouped it.......and the grouping was as dismal as the expansion.
Oddly, the lowest POI of all Bullets tested. And the least expansion........almost.
Guess this sucker was designed for .357 Mag velocities.
Well, I’m out of jugs. Gotta save more up for the 158gr Nosler.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Hmm, interesting on both counts. The 110's are of unknown age, does oxidation and time change the lead enough not to expand?
No. What you're seeing there is probably too much jacket rigidity.
I've had some samples of range scrap tested that were carefully segregated before melting. As I recall, jacketed was something like 1% antimony. At any rate - low. You can't harden up lead too much if you're going to swage it as a "fluid" into a jacketed bullet. This is close to pure lead, and lead is about as inert as elements get - - uranium will decay into lead over gazillions of years. . .and there it stops. Surface oxide will only be that - on the surface.
One of the wacky bits of mind-bending alchemy with bullet casting is that when you get both tin and antimony involved, bullets can age-harden - - OR if they were heat-treated by water-quenching, they can harden up briefly (relative term) and then will soften back down to some base-line for the percentages involved.
It is WEIRD, and something the true egg-heads can manipulate to their advantage, but it's not what's happening here.
The 110's are probably designed, as you surmised, for higher .357 mag velocities. The first thing I noticed is the lack of skiving on the jacket. Skives on a jacket greatly reduce hoop tension around the nose. This allows the lead to flow much more easily on impact than bullets without them. Skives or those notches around the nose let's the copper tear more easily.
Without the skives, higher velocities are usually required. So I'm guessing those 110's (not all 110's) are meant for higher speeds. The 125's you're using are probably within their design velocity for that bullet so good expansion is taking place.
Anyway, 125 at 1000-ish... Good expansion, excellent accuracy. That's not bad. It's a keeper. 👍
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
I just ordered 200 of these. I was waiting for reviews and they are all good so far. That, and free shipping. So, with great reviews and free shipping.......they are on the way.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Replies
On a deer, pig, hominid, etc..., you might have a rib to contend with on the way in - no real obstacle, and the bullet hasn't expanded yet.
By the time you get to another rib with a fully expanded bullet, the bullet's done all the good work it will do for you, and we don't really care if it stops at that point.
The juncture of two jugs pressed together is probably a reasonable approximation of the resistance you'd get from a rib and chest wall - and you're hitting it with a wider, gently curving bullet face that's spreading the load. We've inserted the opposite wall resistance into the test before we've collected oour "gel equivalent" penetration data.
I've seen a lot of jug rows where dents have told me that it was this jug juncture that stopped a widely-expanded bullet more than water. A good example being a 10mm Silvertip, which for damn sure should have enough energy to punch more than the 3 jugs it does - it just gets turned into a .75 caliber pancake that the plastic can handle. Maybe it's a good simulator for light bone and gristle, but not the stuff inside the chest walls.
They have the saving grace of being cheap and repeatable. . .(shrug)
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
Nosler 158gr JHP
Hornady 110gr JHP
Magnus 125gr JHP
Im gonna have to save up more jugs. 😳
Question now, do I push them fast with Unique/Longshot or do I push them slow with Trail Boss?
The other two may not play well at the 38spl playground.
How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
Think I’ll load the rest up at book max (only .2 more grain) and call it good at about 1,000 fps.
I have 125gr factory ammo, but I don't think Ive ever handloaded that weight.
I've had some samples of range scrap tested that were carefully segregated before melting. As I recall, jacketed was something like 1% antimony. At any rate - low. You can't harden up lead too much if you're going to swage it as a "fluid" into a jacketed bullet. This is close to pure lead, and lead is about as inert as elements get - - uranium will decay into lead over gazillions of years. . .and there it stops. Surface oxide will only be that - on the surface.
One of the wacky bits of mind-bending alchemy with bullet casting is that when you get both tin and antimony involved, bullets can age-harden - - OR if they were heat-treated by water-quenching, they can harden up briefly (relative term) and then will soften back down to some base-line for the percentages involved.
It is WEIRD, and something the true egg-heads can manipulate to their advantage, but it's not what's happening here.
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
Don’t remember if the weight was the same. Have to look that up.
-Mikhail Kalashnikov
How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain