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.38 Spl - Load Work & Testing

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Replies

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,562 Senior Member
    Without velocities........it’s incomplete data. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 20,881 Senior Member
    Well, looking @ QL, I SHOULD be able to safely top 1500fps with either H110 or Li'l gun, seated long.
    Be curious to see how they react to that kind of speed.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,562 Senior Member
    Interested to see how accurate they’ll be at that speed. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 20,881 Senior Member
    knitepoet said:
    Unfortunately, last time I tried it, my Chronograph had gone tango uniform, even with a new battery, so I may not be able to get velocities

    Disregard that part, just ordered a new one
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,748 Senior Member
    The target with the heavier charge has two holes out of the three that appear slightly elongated as if the bullet may not have been completely stable in flight.

    The expansion looks to be completely in depth back to the full length of the cavity. Expansion could maybe be as good at reduced speed?

    Given the better accuracy of the slower load and above observations. A slightly slower speed could maybe offer a desired effect?
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 20,881 Senior Member
    edited July 19 #127
    Zee said:
    Interested to see how accurate they’ll be at that speed. 
    Considering I'll only be loading 1 or 2 that fast, won't really know
    Though I suspect it would be "okay" 
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,562 Senior Member
    Eh, I may try a Trail Boss load then. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,562 Senior Member
    knitepoet said:
    Zee said:
    Interested to see how accurate they’ll be at that speed. 
    Considering I'll only be loading 1 or 2 that fast, won't really know
    Though I suspect it would be "okay" 
    If you’re gonna do it.......might as well get the data. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 20,881 Senior Member
    edited July 19 #130
    Not that interested in wasting the few bullets I have just to test accuracy of a load pushing them way outside their design envelope. I am willing to wasted one or two just to see how they perform at close to 1.5-2x their designed speed

     Plan is, once I test the 6.0gr of unique and see it does what I want, I'll load up the rest of either a 50, or 100 count ammo box (whichever I find first in the man cave) full and use them for "GP" loads in the 4" Which will include accuracy, sight adjustment etc.


    edited to add: my goal with the 4"/Unique load is ~1000fps MV 
    Should be in the upper end of design velocity at the muzzle, and basically being a wadcutter, should still be in the "envelope" at 25+ yards
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 3,863 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Eh, I may try a Trail Boss load then. 
    I finally got some free time and read all the other posts. I'm really glad you didn't blow yourself up or damage that gun experimenting. 😌

    Anyway, there should be a load in 38 that your revolver actually likes. Considering how thoroughly the bullet expanded tells me you have wiggle room to go up or down (most likely down) in velocity where the groups will tighten up without losing too much performance.
    Like you, I'm waiting for what the other guys come up with.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 20,881 Senior Member
    Gotta get ready for work, will revisit this thread tomorrow
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,020 Senior Member
    Hmm.  I may have to load some in the Titegroup powder I found today and see if I can get some tighter groupings than you did.

    Might actually chrono them as well
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,809 Senior Member
    I’d bet Titegroup will give better accuracy and velocity, based on my experience with it. Playing the 25 yard bullseye game, I tend to go to that powder a lot. But, I caution everyone I tell about that powder, it’s not Unique. Often you’ll see book data with less than 1/2 a grain difference between starting load and max load. It’s a fast powder. You’ll see better velocity and accuracy pretty frequently. But .3gr could be the difference between bang and boom... on the plus side, at 4 grains per charge, you can get 14,000 charges out of 8 pounds of powder..

    Ill be trying those bullets seated to the canelure with Titegroup when I get mine. Only thing is, the shortest gun I haven’t is a 6” GP100. 
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,562 Senior Member
    edited July 20 #135
    Trail Boss loads are made. Was able to put 4.6gr in the case just below the bullet base. I don’t  expect it to be fast. But, if it’s accurate, I’ll do an expansion test regardless. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,562 Senior Member
    Oh!  The recovered bullet weighed 121 grains of its original 130 grains. 
    Stopping in the 3rd jug. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,562 Senior Member
    Trail Boss load was NOT accurate (hand size at 10yrds) and only running 560 fps. 

    No go. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • JunkCollectorJunkCollector Posts: 526 Senior Member
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 3,863 Senior Member
    edited July 20 #139
    Zee said:
    Trail Boss load was NOT accurate (hand size at 10yrds) and only running 560 fps. 

    No go. 
    Here's what Alliant says:

    38 Special +p
    125 GDHP 6" barrel and Unique @ 6 grains (1082 f/s)

    38 Special standard pressure
    125 GDHP 6" barrel and Unique @ 5.7 grains (980f/s)

    Also, 38 Special +p
    135 GDHP  6" barrel and Unique @ 5.2 grains (988f/s)

    The trend here when using a heavier bullet is to use a lighter charge (maybe 5.6).

    Since you're already off the reservation. You might want to try something between 6.0 and 6.3
    If you want something "safer" or less "wear and tear" on the gun, I wouldn't go above 5.7 (4.7-5.3 in the standard pressure-ish range)
    Yeah, velocity is going to suffer but if you can find something in the neighborhood of about 850 f/s, I think the performance of those HST's will be good enough.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,562 Senior Member
    edited July 20 #140
    👍🏻

    Oddly though, I’m using the Sierra Loading manual for my powder charges and I’m still below their book max. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 3,863 Senior Member
    edited July 20 #141
    I'm sure Alliant is dumbing down the numbers because I have a older Speer manual with higher numbers than what's on the Alliant website but that's what they're listing today.

    I'm thinking, creep the load down until the groups tighten up a bit (6.4, 6.2, 6.0, etc). If the groups don't tighten up then there's not much you can do. Find a speed/performance combo you like and call it good.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,748 Senior Member
    When electronic sensors replaced copper pressure cups for testing ignition pressure. It was discovered that Unique reached peak pressure early in the duration of ignition, and that peak pressure was greater than what was calculated with the old CUP system. Changes and/or reductions in recommended charge weights followed.
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 3,863 Senior Member
    edited July 21 #143
    When electronic sensors replaced copper pressure cups for testing ignition pressure. It was discovered that Unique reached peak pressure early in the duration of ignition, and that peak pressure was greater than what was calculated with the old CUP system. Changes and/or reductions in recommended charge weights followed.
    Yeah, piezoelectric transducers give a clearer picture of the pressure curve over time versus CUP or LUP. It makes sense that powder manufacturers want to cover their bases against law suits.

    Since a longer duration, lower pressure pulse can crush the cylinder as much as a shorter duration, higher pressure pulse, CUP and LUP pressures frequently register lower than actual peak pressures (as measured by a transducer) by up to 20%.




    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,562 Senior Member
    It’ll probably be a couple weeks before I get a chance. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,748 Senior Member
    A relatively inexpensive revolver. Some factory seconds bullets, help from all us wise asses......

    Sometimes the best things in life are the simple pleasures :)
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 20,881 Senior Member
    edited July 22 #146
    Okay Zedrick, I'm making progress
    The "Zee height"  ones are loaded with 6.0gr of Unique :p:D:D 
    The "full growed" ones are crimped in the cannelure.

    I contemplated using either H110 or Li'l Gun.
    Browsing through my powder magazine I'm out of H110, so it was an easy decision to go with Li'l gun. XX.Xgr, which SHOULD be "safe" and within pressure limits. but until I test fire them, I won't post the actual charge.
    Using the settings I used with the 125gr XTP to guesstimate things, QL says the 6" should be at 1516fps.
    If the velocity is close to, or below that, I'll let you know the charge. If I'm running over 1600FPS, QL says I'm running excessive pressure and I'll know not to put it on a public forum, where someone else might be tempted to try it 

    edited to add: Might be a a few days before I get to test them Chrono's due tomorrow, but I have to work Wed and Thur, Not sure if I'll have time Thur morning before work or not, so Fri or Sat are better options

    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 20,881 Senior Member
    Oh, and if you noticed, I loaded 5 of each.
    1 ea for shooting into water from both my 4 and 6" 686 and the remaining 3 for accuracy testing through my scoped, tuned 6"
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 5,301 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Thanks guys. I pulled the Bullets. 

    What load should I start with?
    How the hell did you pull the flush seated ones?
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,562 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    Zee said:
    Thanks guys. I pulled the Bullets. 

    What load should I start with?
    How the hell did you pull the flush seated ones?
    Kinetic 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 5,301 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    GunNut said:
    Zee said:
    Thanks guys. I pulled the Bullets. 

    What load should I start with?
    How the hell did you pull the flush seated ones?
    Kinetic 
    Ha!  Cool...  I have to look into this.  Thanks!
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 5,301 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    GunNut said:
    Zee said:
    Thanks guys. I pulled the Bullets. 

    What load should I start with?
    How the hell did you pull the flush seated ones?
    Kinetic 
    Do you recover the powder when you do that?
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

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