Asking the white elephant question on the forum

Jeff in TX

My son and I were watching the looting and rioting on TV.  There were some thugs beating on a women's car with a crowbar in a Walmart Parking lot.  I'm blessed to live in the great state of Texas so our laws are not that of Kalifornia. 

My son said dad, the first time they hit your car with crowbar could you shoot in self defense.  My thought is yes, myself and my occupants are under a direct threat and yes I could shoot!  Do you see this as a grey area?  I said if they busted the windows I'd surely be firing.

Thoughts and thanks!

GunNut

it entirely depends on your state laws.  In Texas you are allowed to use deadly force for the protection of property (car).  In many states you need to be under direct threat of bodily harm or death.  So in California? nope...

Now if the guy is breaking the windows to get to YOU inside the car then the grey disappears BUT in CA you BETTER have a REALLY good lawyer.  In Texas they probably give you a commendation.

10canyon53

Florida......pretty much like Texas.  With me they would at the least be staring down the wrong end of a .357 Magnum.  Would I pull the trigger?  That would depend on their next move.  If they back off at that point I would just as soon not have to do the additional paperwork.

Some_Mook

10canyon53 said:

Florida......pretty much like Texas.  With me they would at the least be staring down the wrong end of a .357 Magnum.  Would I pull the trigger?  That would depend on their next move.  If they back off at that point I would just as soon not have to do the additional paperwork.

You'll still need to do paperwork.  If you feel it necessary to show a weapon in any form you'd best be the first person to call 911 and tell them you had just been threatened in the gravest extreme.  If you don't, you can bet your bottom the scumbag(s) that you showed your weapon to will be the ones calling to say you threatened them and brandished a weapon for no good reason 'cause dey ain't done nuff ink to you no how.

tv_racin_fan

Some_Mook said:

10canyon53 said:

Florida......pretty much like Texas.  With me they would at the least be staring down the wrong end of a .357 Magnum.  Would I pull the trigger?  That would depend on their next move.  If they back off at that point I would just as soon not have to do the additional paperwork.

You'll still need to do paperwork.  If you feel it necessary to show a weapon in any form you'd best be the first person to call 911 and tell them you had just been threatened in the gravest extreme.  If you don't, you can get your bottom the scumbag(s) that you showed your weapon to will be the ones calling to say you threatened them and brandished a weapon for no good reason 'cause dey ain't done nuff ink to you no how.

They can make whatever claim they like. The dash cam shows they did in fact do something that justified my brandishing of a firearm and very likely would justify a discharge had they not ceased and desisted.

That said I agree that if you felt the need to draw you should dial 911.

Diver43

No matter where, be the first on the phone with 911.  The recording will have the sounds of them beating on your car, you yelling for them to stop, glass breaking and you under attack.  Their choice if you have to shoot, that will be recorded also. Audio/video works for the good guys also.

earlyagain

This is a question for a local lawyer.

Details matter in court.

10canyon53

Some_Mook said:

10canyon53 said:

Florida......pretty much like Texas.  With me they would at the least be staring down the wrong end of a .357 Magnum.  Would I pull the trigger?  That would depend on their next move.  If they back off at that point I would just as soon not have to do the additional paperwork.

You'll still need to do paperwork.  If you feel it necessary to show a weapon in any form you'd best be the first person to call 911 and tell them you had just been threatened in the gravest extreme.  If you don't, you can bet your bottom the scumbag(s) that you showed your weapon to will be the ones calling to say you threatened them and brandished a weapon for no good reason 'cause dey ain't done nuff ink to you no how.

Oh, I know that.  It was just my way of saying I would not escalate any more than the situation required.  If I had anyone with me they (my passenger) would be calling 911 while it was still going down, my first call would be to my attorney.

JerryBobCo

GunNut said:

it entirely depends on your state laws.  In Texas you are allowed to use deadly force for the protection of property (car).  In many states you need to be under direct threat of bodily harm or death.  So in California? nope...

Now if the guy is breaking the windows to get to YOU inside the car then the grey disappears BUT in CA you BETTER have a REALLY good lawyer.  In Texas they probably give you a commendation.

I don't know if that's correct.  It's a long standing law that if you catch someone who has broken into your home his/her ass belongs to you.  However, I don't know if it's legal to use deadly force to protect one's property unless there's also a threat to one's life.

Regardless, it would be a tough call to make.

dld

if you have no way to de escalate the problem( like driving away) you should probably do it , if you don,t the you have to protect your life. Just remember some one is most likely videoing it so make sure you cross the T's and dot the i's. 

Varmintmist

If you are in a vehicle and someone starts beating on it with a weapon and they are part of a mob, you had better be in fear of your life.

pjames777

In Kommifornia it depends on how long it took you to get your gun, unlock the ammo box(in a different part of the car), load your weapon and audibly warn the people smashing your occupied vehicle.

GunNut

JerryBobCo said:

GunNut said:

it entirely depends on your state laws.  In Texas you are allowed to use deadly force for the protection of property (car).  In many states you need to be under direct threat of bodily harm or death.  So in California? nope...

Now if the guy is breaking the windows to get to YOU inside the car then the grey disappears BUT in CA you BETTER have a REALLY good lawyer.  In Texas they probably give you a commendation.

I don't know if that's correct.  It's a long standing law that if you catch someone who has broken into your home his/her ass belongs to you.  However, I don't know if it's legal to use deadly force to protect one's property unless there's also a threat to one's life.

Regardless, it would be a tough call to make.

Again varies by state.  Castle Law, in general, has a presumption that anyone in your house illegally has intent to cause you harm, therefore you are Ok in using deadly force in your defense, not just guns, the heavy lamp to the head is included here.  

In NC you are well within your rights to use deadly force and that applies to your car too which is an extension of your home.  BUT that is not the case in some states where you have a duty to retreat even within your home.

Also the car thing since this the topic of the OP.  If you are inside the car and you feel the BG is coming in to get you you're cool.  Leave the car and shoot it will probably be viewed as defending your property by an overzealous anti-gun prosecutor, NOT cool in many states including NC.

This is one of the MOST complex aspects of SD and one folks need to be DECIDEDLY educated on by a subject matter expert if they choose to add deadly force to their catalog of options for survival.

JerryBobCo

Now that you've told me about your new job, I hereby dub you the expert in all things legal regarding gun laws.

GunNut

JerryBobCo said:

Now that you've told me about your new job, I hereby dub you the expert in all things legal regarding gun laws.

  

Bigslug

230 grains in a .45

28,000,000 grains behind the bumper of a car.

Just sayin. . .

bullsi1911

Bigslug said:

230 grains in a .45

28,000,000 grains behind the bumper of a car.

Just sayin. . .

If you are in the car, then yes- you should be in fear for your life.  Drop it in gear, apply massive amounts of "Right Pedal", and unass the area.  Drive- don't shoot.

If you are out of the car, be a good witness or fade away from the area and get to a place of safety.  The car is just stuff, and not worth risking your life for.   

Legally- in TX, you can kill someone to protect property from theft or destruction.  In a riot situation, there are a LOT more of them than there are of you.  You will run out of ammo before you run out of threats, and then you are still dead.  

Jeff in TX

From what I've found out.  If they're damaging or hitting the car with a crowbar or something else, shooting someone can be a very grey area.  As soon as they hit the windshield or windows you're now fearing for your life and can shoot to protect your life and those in the vehicle.

GunNut

For the decades that I've been training folks my recommendation is the same.  PAY for 1 hour of a good criminal attorney's time as soon as you get a CC or move to anew state.  

For a relatively small amount of money you will end up with an actual expert to explain to you Use of Deadly Force LAW for your state, answer your "what if" questions on the subject, AND you will walk out with the guy's phone number on speed dial on your cell phone JUST in case you ever need it.  

I do that every time I move, I have been telling people to do that for a forever.  It has been worth its weight in gold several times to not just me but many of my friends.

Diver43

GunNut's advice is very sound.  My late friend George Russell was not only a criminal attorney, but also served as a magistrate here in Florida.  We had these types of discussions sitting by the pool with a cigar several times.  some of his answers to questions regarding defense were surprising.

Doves_Indefinitely

GunNut said:

it entirely depends on your state laws.  In Texas you are allowed to use deadly force for the protection of property (car).  In many states you need to be under direct threat of bodily harm or death.  So in California? nope...

Now if the guy is breaking the windows to get to YOU inside the car then the grey disappears BUT in CA you BETTER have a REALLY good lawyer.  In Texas they probably give you a commendation.

If they started to beat my windows I would try to drive away. If my car couldn't go anywhere, I would have my gun out ready to shoot, as soon as any window started to give way, I would fire. 

Jeff in TX

Doves_Indefinitely said:

GunNut said:

it entirely depends on your state laws.  In Texas you are allowed to use deadly force for the protection of property (car).  In many states you need to be under direct threat of bodily harm or death.  So in California? nope...

Now if the guy is breaking the windows to get to YOU inside the car then the grey disappears BUT in CA you BETTER have a REALLY good lawyer.  In Texas they probably give you a commendation.

If they started to beat my windows I would try to drive away. If my car couldn't go anywhere, I would have my gun out ready to shoot, as soon as any window started to give way, I would fire. 

That's pretty much was I was told by an attorney! 

tennmike

What GunNut said about paying a lawyer a few bucks to go over the laws of your state makes a lot of sense. I've done that, and it was worth the price of admission.
Given the situation the OP posted, in TN  that beating on the car hood with a crowbar or  other improvised weapon doesn't rise to the level of using deadly force. Breaking out any side glass or the windshield or rear window to access the passengers does, though.
As to car theft when you aren't in the vehicle, if they aren't armed and run, or succeed in getting the car started and are getting away, it's a no shoot unless they are armed and point the weapon at you. 
And TN also has some laws on the books, and new ones on the legislative calendar this year, that protect the over 65 or disabled folks. Being over 65 I have some tools in my box that the younger folk can't access, especially on the use of deadly force if attacked, whether the person attacking is armed or not. Too old and crotchety to fight or run, so that leaves the last option as the only option.
As to being in caught up in a mess with folks attacking people in vehicles and trying to pull them out, I can't really envision enough folk being present to stall a 3/4 ton turbo diesel pickup in 4WD high range. They DO have the option of getting out of the way...............or not. I'll take my chances in court on that one. State law here is kind of vague on that one. Goes back to trying to break into the passenger compartment.

Uncle Fester

Jeff in TX said:

My son and I were watching the looting and rioting on TV.  There were some thugs beating on a women's car with a crowbar in a Walmart Parking lot.  I'm blessed to live in the great state of Texas so our laws are not that of Kalifornia. 

My son said dad, the first time they hit your car with crowbar could you shoot in self defense.  My thought is yes, myself and my occupants are under a direct threat and yes I could shoot!  Do you see this as a grey area?  I said if they busted the windows I'd surely be firing.

Thoughts and thanks!

I am a Texas lawyer (Hook Em).  Thankfully, I no longer practice

In Texas, you can use deadly force to protect property in a few situations not present in your hypo (you can’t use deadly force to protect your car unless one of the exceptions below applies).  You can use deadly for to protect your life or the life of another.  Simple right?

https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-9-42.html

But, ambiguity comes from the why did you get out of the car?  Where there is ambiguity, DA’s can prosecute and juries can convict.  Having said that, I think most DA’s in Texas would not charge.

In other states, they are likely to charge anyone who doesn’t run away.  Essentially, you would need to prove you could not retreat or you would be guilty.

GunNut

In NC if anyone is forcing his way into your “home” you are allowed to use deadly force to stop them.  Your car is considered part of your home.

bobbyrlf3

I've already decided that I would shoot if someone was trying to break into my car while I'm in it.  Washington has a pretty strong Castle Doctrine law.

Jayhawker

Michigan's Self Defense Act includes Stand Your Ground as well as Castle Doctrine. There is no duty to retreat in SYG and you have a legal right to protect yourself anywhere you have a legal right to be. You must be in fear for your life or in fear of great bodily harm.
Break out my car window and attempt to lay hands on me you're bought and paid for

GunNut

Jayhawker said:

Michigan's Self Defense Act includes Stand Your Ground as well as Castle Doctrine. There is no duty to retreat in SYG and you have a legal right to protect yourself anywhere you have a legal right to be. You must be in fear for your life or in fear of great bodily harm.
Break out my car window and attempt to lay hands on me you're bought and paid for

Yep, the issue is that you have to take a good long hard look at your "officials" too and what happens afterwards is all up in the air and many times is completely dependent on politics, not the law.  

The law has lost all meaning and today the default action by the police is arrest the shooter, we will let the court sort out later what happened and there is a good chance you'll get charged with something, period.  The new law is public opinion and the LEOs are scared and the prosecutors are hungry.  The number of active cases we have going on at any given time is insane and growing.

I wish you guys could read some of the stuff the comes into my in-box daily.  Frightening...

Jayhawker

There is an interesting thing in our law in MI...Should the prosecutor choose to prosecute you for defending yourself and the case doesn't go his way...the State is responsible for reimbursing all legal bills you incur for defending yourself.

Outside the liberal enclaves in the state...We have had folks who have used deadly force in self defense that never saw the inside of a police car....but as you pointed out, it's a must to know the political leanings of your prosecutor....and you'd best make damn sure it's a clean shooting.

One of the first SD shootings in the state after the SD Act passed was an older gentleman in Grand Rapids who was attacked by a thug at a gas station. The punk was beating the guy with a garbage can lid and got dropped like a bad habit...the prosecutor declined the case citing a "disparity of force"

GunNut

It’s a pity we can’t discuss cases.  We’d be here all day.  It’s funny that the crazy stuff mostly does not make the news.  And the civil aspect, because it’s much less dramatic gets no attention and most folks don’t even realize it’s there.  THAT’S the one that will ruin you.   

This is one I’m allowed to talk about.  Clean shooting of an armed (with a STOLEN handgun!!!) felon inside someone’s house.  Homeowner cleared after significant expenses, even though it never went to trial, then gets sued for the outstanding child support by the baby momma of the scumbag’s kid who had a judgement against him.  We had to settle, it was cheaper than fighting it for 3 years and ultimately losing to a softhearted jury feeling bad for the “orphan”.

Linefinder

Kind of points one into the direction of "de-escaluate" if you can, and run away if at all possible.

"Discretion is the better part of valor". 

Good rule then....good rule now.

Mike