Home Main Category Personal Defense

Asking the white elephant question on the forum

2»

Replies

  • Some_MookSome_Mook Posts: 380 Member
    Kind of points one into the direction of "de-escaluate" if you can, and run away if at all possible.

    "Discretion is the better part of valor". 

    Good rule then....good rule now.

    Mike
    And if you cannot de-escalate, or run away, keep a shovel and a bag of lime handy...
    "If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace." - Thomas Paine
    "I know my place in the world and it ain’t standing next to Jerry Miculek" - Zee
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,721 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    it entirely depends on your state laws.  In Texas you are allowed to use deadly force for the protection of property (car).  In many states you need to be under direct threat of bodily harm or death.  So in California? nope...

    Now if the guy is breaking the windows to get to YOU inside the car then the grey disappears BUT in CA you BETTER have a REALLY good lawyer.  In Texas they probably give you a commendation.
    I don't know if that's correct.  It's a long standing law that if you catch someone who has broken into your home his/her ass belongs to you.  However, I don't know if it's legal to use deadly force to protect one's property unless there's also a threat to one's life.

    Regardless, it would be a tough call to make.

            You sure can. Listen to this 911 call. No charges filed.


    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,721 Senior Member
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 6,703 Senior Member
    Kind of points one into the direction of "de-escaluate" if you can, and run away if at all possible.

    "Discretion is the better part of valor". 

    Good rule then....good rule now.

    Mike
    Yep!!!  In my company, we spend a lot of time and efforts training members how to defend themselves and of course it is what we support BUT we spend even MORE time/effort and resources teaching/training folks how BEST to stay and/or get out of trouble.  In most cases of use of deadly force even when you legally "can" it does not mean that you "should", and if you DO you WILL regret it in some or many ways later.
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,313 Senior Member
    edited November 2020 #36
    Horn may have been cleared, but I'd not want to go through what I'm pretty sure he went through. Financially or personally.

    In my mind, being easily declared "innocent" is a whole lot better than being a contested "hero".

    Save the last ditch actions for "last ditch" times. Served me well once before, when I would have been "well within" my rights.....depending on the DA's POV and if his wife had burned the toast that morning.

    The best gun-fight you'll ever be in is the one you never had.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,201 Senior Member
    Have to remember that Horn's case happened in Texas....not every state works that way... In Michigan the only property crime that warrants deadly force is arson of an occupied dwelling...



    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,721 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    Have to remember that Horn's case happened in Texas....not every state works that way... In Michigan the only property crime that warrants deadly force is arson of an occupied dwelling...




    I understand this, that's what the gotta love Texas remark was about.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,985 Senior Member
    edited November 2020 #39
    I think it all depends....in GA, if someone forces entry into your home while you're in it, home invasion, you're pretty well justified in whatever.  I can't think of an instance where anyone got in trouble for defending their home against such a threat. There is, however, still a lot real estate in that scenario, too much to state it as a fact unequivocally.  The basic question is as in all SD situations if you were in fear for your life. It's a good citizen law; If you're a drug dealer out of your home and a rival drug dealer busts down your door, you've probably got some 'splainin' to do.

    If someone kicked my door in and came inside, I'd assume they were armed and meant me harm, although the law doesn't mention armed or not; just violent entry.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,355 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    Have to remember that Horn's case happened in Texas....not every state works that way... In Michigan the only property crime that warrants deadly force is arson of an occupied dwelling...



    Texas is one of the few areas where deadly force justification for property crimes is codified into law.  BUT... as you see with a lot of those cases, prosecutors will still find some reason to bring charges.  It’s often of those “You may beat the rap, but you won’t beat the ride” situations.

    BTW- deadly force is also justified by law for “Criminal Mischief in the night-time” in TX.  However, I would never suggest someone open fire on kids TPing a house.  Just because it’s legal, does not mean it’s right.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,198 Senior Member

    ...
    BTW- deadly force is also justified by law for “Criminal Mischief in the night-time” in TX.  However, I would never suggest someone open fire on kids TPing a house.  Just because it’s legal, does not mean it’s right.

    I don't think TP-ing someone's house rises to the level of Criminal Mischief.
    Governed by state law, criminal mischief is committed when a perpetrator, having no right to do so nor any reasonable ground to believe that he/she has such right, intentionally or recklessly damages property of another person, intentionally participates in the destruction of property of another person, or participates in the reckless damage or destruction of property of another person.

    I think damage or destruction needs to be involved. If flying beer bottles start coming through your window, that's another story.

    I think TP-ers are more likely to be charged with trespassing, littering and disorderly conduct.

    Shot while TP-ing, dang! That would really suck. 😁


    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,793 Senior Member
    It all depends on your states definition of self defense. In Florida "the use of deadly physical force is warranted if you are in fear of serious physical injury or death of yourself or another person." I believe the minute the glass starts breaking you better be in fear of serious physical injury or death, or the aforementioned is going to happen.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • BamaakIIBamaakII Posts: 322 Member
    AL. Is an open carry state.  As soon as you get in your car, its considered concealed carrying you need a permit.  The tried To make your  car an extension of your home but the cops fought it and won.  So no castle doctrine in Your car 
  • Jack BurtonJack Burton Member Posts: 386 Member
    edited March 27 #44
    My son and I were watching the looting and rioting on TV.  There were some thugs beating on a women's car with a crowbar in a Walmart Parking lot.  I'm blessed to live in the great state of Texas so our laws are not that of Kalifornia. 

    My son said dad, the first time they hit your car with crowbar could you shoot in self defense.  My thought is yes, myself and my occupants are under a direct threat and yes I could shoot!  Do you see this as a grey area?  I said if they busted the windows I'd surely be firing.

    Thoughts and thanks!
    Going to back OP.

    Ability: Do the thugs possess the ability (power) to kill?
    Opportunity: Do they have the opportunity to inflict that power in the here and now?
    Jeopardy: Are they demonstrating that power in deed and/or actions?

    All 3 of these must be present before deadly force is warranted in self defense.

    If they are beating on your car with a crow bar, and are communicating verbally with you about their intent (i.e. they are demonstrating they know the car is occupied), and are actually contacting your car with their chosen weapon and it is causing damage to the paint/body/etc. damage that a reasonable person could conclude would cause death or grave bodily harm if the vehicle body were not in the way. And also knowing that the same blow that could breach the glass/car could at nearly the same instant breach your skull, if the shards of glass do not blind you.

    The car really is incidental to this thought experiment. Yes, it is mere property and if you were standing at your kitchen window watching your empty car being beaten in your driveway, it would make you angry, but it would only be a life threatening situation if your decisions/actions placed you there.

    I know FL, LA allow deadly force to defend against car jacking. It is not up to the average law-abiding and reasonable person to know that it is ONLY a couple of harmless millennials tired of being cooped up from months of lockdowns trying to burn off some steam and not car-jackers. 

    Whether it requires the movement of 28,000,000 grains or 230 to rectify this problem is another topic, but either could have justification IMO. 
    Came for the fishing, stayed for the guns.
Sign In or Register to comment.
Magazine Cover

GET THE MAGAZINE Subscribe & Save

Temporary Price Reduction

SUBSCRIBE NOW

Give a Gift   |   Subscriber Services

PREVIEW THIS MONTH'S ISSUE

GET THE NEWSLETTER Join the List and Never Miss a Thing.

Get the top Guns & Ammo stories delivered right to your inbox every week.

Advertisement