Definitely worth learning the load it was regulated for. You can fudge with both load intensity and bullet weight, but probably far cheaper to know where to start.
Unless you're set up to get a "pound casting" of the chamber with fired brass, this may not be the gun to learn on. Having a gunsmith Cerrosafe it may be the better approach.
Once you have that info, Accurate Molds is the go-to source for custom, made-to-order molds.
This is a good book. According to the content. You want soft bullet lube of natural non-petroleum composition to keep fouling soft. Protection for the base of the bullet. The author said milk carton waxed cardboard seems to be prefered. Magnum primers deliver the most consistent ignition.
You've got the same pattern of rifling as the Martinis, so they were most likely thinking paper patched bullets. Obviously, you can shoot greasers, which modern lubes let you do and would be easier on the bore in the really long run. It would be worth looking into the construction of the period cartridges - the .577/.450 Martini used a paper patched slug with some form of fiber (wool maybe) between the bullet and a base wad. Since regulating a double can be a tricky thing, it'll be worth having all the data you can lay your hands on. Closest thing to authentic (I'm guessing) would be a paper patched slug, a card compression wad on top of the powder, and MAYBE a series of felt wads between the two if they were needed to maintain spacing/compression with different spacings caused by bullet weight changes within the factory load offerings.
A trick my Dad's picked up in his BP cartridge shooting - an onionskin paper layer between the bullet and the compression card wad helps the wad separate cleanly from the slug. Not that this is a 1,000 yard precision rifle, but good lab technique is good lab technique.
I have my copy of Cartridges of the World open to the British Sporting Rifles section. Assuming this to be a non-bottlenecked, straight-wall cartridge, I'm going to guess you have the three inch version of the .500 Black Powder Express, which the good book says was the most commercially successful version. The general .500 BPE family was born in the mid to late 1860's, and it looks like the sizes ran from 1.5 to 3.25 inches
Specs for the .500 BPE 3" claim a bullet weight range of 340 to 440 grains and charges of 123 to 142 grains of BP.
Looks like the general family of British BP .50 cals were pushing 400 grains at about 1900 fps - so basically you're getting levels of performance in the "modern action" sections of the .45-70 load data.
COTW says that in their day, the .500 BPE's were regarded as good general purpose guns in India, but not so well liked in Africa. My guess is that since it is a pretty light bullet for a .50, the sectional density and penetration were somewhat lacking for elephant and buffalo.
"In the early 1900's Fraser had a load with 120 grains of black and a 570-grain bullet, which is the bullet weight of the full Nitro cartridge"
So it seems they were trying to up the performance of the older BP guns for Africa into the Nitro era.
The cartridge dimensions chart lists the .500 BPE 3" and the 3.25" version of the .500 Nitro Express. Aside from the obvious length difference, the only dimensional difference is on the rim thickness:
.500 BPE - 0.055" .500 NE - - 0.040"
I would take that with a grain of salt and consult a couple more sources, as fifteen thousandth's is not very much among friends. I VERY MUCH doubt that they would have been manufacturing Nitro guns that wouldn't close on a black powder version of the round. I could see them going the OTHER way for safety's sake. . .
Midway has RCBS .500 NE 3-die sets for the 3" version. Might be that gets you in the game.
I wonder if you couldnt run a thin film of oil in them chambers and pack some playdough in em'. Run a wood dowel through the muzzle and slide out a redneck chamber cast???
Bigslug I'm pretty sure this is going to wind up the less common 3 1/4 when all is figured out.
The rear sight is a single leaf one.
Maybe. No reason you couldn't shoot the shorter rounds Listed case length is 3.01" for the BPE, and 3.25" for the Nitro 3.25 (shocking!).
Bear in mind that the chamber would be a skosh longer than either on a modern chamber, and they probably were considering allowance for BP fouling at the time. Midway has brass for either. The one box of Bertram 3.25" brass is actually marked down cheaper than the 3" stuff right now. Might want to pounce.
Yup. Henry. How ya feel about rolling your bullets in wet paper patches, leaving them to dry, dipping in beeswax. . .? True, you don't have to, but they're SO COOOOOOL!
Yup. Henry. How ya feel about rolling your bullets in wet paper patches, leaving them to dry, dipping in beeswax. . .? True, you don't have to, but they're SO COOOOOOL!
Yup. Henry. How ya feel about rolling your bullets in wet paper patches, leaving them to dry, dipping in beeswax. . .? True, you don't have to, but they're SO COOOOOOL!
Not bad I'll do what works well.
Yep! Not like you’ll be plinking at Coke cans with this one every Sunday 😁
Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.
General George Patton: “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”
Yup. Henry. How ya feel about rolling your bullets in wet paper patches, leaving them to dry, dipping in beeswax. . .? True, you don't have to, but they're SO COOOOOOL!
Not bad I'll do what works well.
Yep! Not like you’ll be plinking at Coke cans with this one every Sunday 😁
Don't know just this morning I had a grround grizzly staring me down. I could tell he was ready to charge.
FWIW - The official bullet alloy for the Whitworth of Civil War and Victorian target shooting fame was 10-1 lead/tin, and the Martini-Henrys and.455 Webley revolvers were using 12-1. Stands to reason that you'll find bliss somewhere around there.
Where I stand right now is still in limbo. On the Grant ledger I did just get an email from AGL reservations so my inquiry was at least read and hopefully forwarded to Mr.Lovell.
The other man I've been in contact with a managing editor at vintage gun journal will "call" him if I don't hear back in a week. I think he's just as interested as me.
Figures I found once fired brass at a good price....think I'm still taking that plunge.
Replies
Definitely worth learning the load it was regulated for. You can fudge with both load intensity and bullet weight, but probably far cheaper to know where to start.
Unless you're set up to get a "pound casting" of the chamber with fired brass, this may not be the gun to learn on. Having a gunsmith Cerrosafe it may be the better approach.
Once you have that info, Accurate Molds is the go-to source for custom, made-to-order molds.
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
very small on the heal of the buttplate…..did I say VERY small
I'm still a long ways from finding out what I need to on it history and safe loads.
It's all totally new to me.
This is a good book. According to the content. You want soft bullet lube of natural non-petroleum composition to keep fouling soft. Protection for the base of the bullet. The author said milk carton waxed cardboard seems to be prefered. Magnum primers deliver the most consistent ignition.
120 grs is a big charge......
It's a very big case.
Right now I think that would be for the heavy bullet.
I think the lighter was 130-140
Thanks for the tips too.
Already been reading some on greased cookies....they sound yukky.
Compressing the charge and definitely lubed up.
I buy my bullets pre-lubed with SPG lube
Good compression on a black powder cartridge is really important, but achieving it pretty much happens when you seat your bullet.
You've got the same pattern of rifling as the Martinis, so they were most likely thinking paper patched bullets. Obviously, you can shoot greasers, which modern lubes let you do and would be easier on the bore in the really long run. It would be worth looking into the construction of the period cartridges - the .577/.450 Martini used a paper patched slug with some form of fiber (wool maybe) between the bullet and a base wad. Since regulating a double can be a tricky thing, it'll be worth having all the data you can lay your hands on. Closest thing to authentic (I'm guessing) would be a paper patched slug, a card compression wad on top of the powder, and MAYBE a series of felt wads between the two if they were needed to maintain spacing/compression with different spacings caused by bullet weight changes within the factory load offerings.
A trick my Dad's picked up in his BP cartridge shooting - an onionskin paper layer between the bullet and the compression card wad helps the wad separate cleanly from the slug. Not that this is a 1,000 yard precision rifle, but good lab technique is good lab technique.
I have my copy of Cartridges of the World open to the British Sporting Rifles section. Assuming this to be a non-bottlenecked, straight-wall cartridge, I'm going to guess you have the three inch version of the .500 Black Powder Express, which the good book says was the most commercially successful version. The general .500 BPE family was born in the mid to late 1860's, and it looks like the sizes ran from 1.5 to 3.25 inches
Specs for the .500 BPE 3" claim a bullet weight range of 340 to 440 grains and charges of 123 to 142 grains of BP.
Looks like the general family of British BP .50 cals were pushing 400 grains at about 1900 fps - so basically you're getting levels of performance in the "modern action" sections of the .45-70 load data.
COTW says that in their day, the .500 BPE's were regarded as good general purpose guns in India, but not so well liked in Africa. My guess is that since it is a pretty light bullet for a .50, the sectional density and penetration were somewhat lacking for elephant and buffalo.
What's the rear sight into on that gun?
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
We're going to have to at least find an elephant picture for a target........
"In the early 1900's Fraser had a load with 120 grains of black and a 570-grain bullet, which is the bullet weight of the full Nitro cartridge"
So it seems they were trying to up the performance of the older BP guns for Africa into the Nitro era.
The cartridge dimensions chart lists the .500 BPE 3" and the 3.25" version of the .500 Nitro Express. Aside from the obvious length difference, the only dimensional difference is on the rim thickness:
.500 BPE - 0.055"
.500 NE - - 0.040"
I would take that with a grain of salt and consult a couple more sources, as fifteen thousandth's is not very much among friends. I VERY MUCH doubt that they would have been manufacturing Nitro guns that wouldn't close on a black powder version of the round. I could see them going the OTHER way for safety's sake. . .
Midway has RCBS .500 NE 3-die sets for the 3" version. Might be that gets you in the game.
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
The rear sight is a single leaf one.
Bear in mind that the chamber would be a skosh longer than either on a modern chamber, and they probably were considering allowance for BP fouling at the time. Midway has brass for either. The one box of Bertram 3.25" brass is actually marked down cheaper than the 3" stuff right now. Might want to pounce.
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
With Mr.Grants clientele I could be shooting myself in the foot.
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
i have this book I can send you.
I'd like to check it out.
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
Where I stand right now is still in limbo.
On the Grant ledger I did just get an email from AGL reservations so my inquiry was at least read and hopefully forwarded to Mr.Lovell.
The other man I've been in contact with a managing editor at vintage gun journal will "call" him if I don't hear back in a week.
I think he's just as interested as me.
Figures I found once fired brass at a good price....think I'm still taking that plunge.