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Interesting results based on actual new shooter training experience...

GunNutGunNut Posts: 4,617 Senior Member
I have to preface this by saying I go out of my way to ONLY educate and not push preconceived notions (not backed by science or experience) on new shooters.  I don't like when folks tell me what to do/think so I try to not do it myself.

I have been spending a lot of time training new shooters for SD and even though I train the basics with a .22 pistol I then move them along through a bunch of different platforms so at least they can make informed decisions when they go to the range I usually send them to that has a great selection of rental gun.  

In the "normal" lineup I have a Ruger Mark I, a .380 SA Pistol.  A .38 snub nose revolver, a Glock 43 and a compact 1911.  I think that is a decent cross section of handguns and recoil levels for them to make at least a first bring assessment as to what they like.

1- So here are two interesting facts.  NOT ONE shooter has picked a snub nosed DA gun as their preferred SD platform and NOT ONE shooter has found it easy to operate or become proficient with the same gun.  Actually most of them outright HATE them.

2- ALMOST UNANIMOUSLY the Glock 43 is the favorite, and just about EVERY shooter has swiftly learned to operate one safely and shoot proficiently.

And yet, any new buyer that goes to a gun counter or talks to an expert ends up with a recommendation of a S&W snub nose.  Interesting no?
Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

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Replies

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,304 Senior Member
    Hell, I’ve been shooting for a couple years now, and I’m STILL not a fan of the DA Revolver!  😁
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 4,617 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Hell, I’ve been shooting for a couple years now, and I’m STILL not a fan of the DA Revolver!  😁
    Shooting airsoft guns in your mom's basement does not count junior...  :D
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • shotgunshooter3shotgunshooter3 Senior Member Posts: 5,680 Senior Member
    I'm so shocked. Said nobody. 

    The advantages of the DA revolver over a reliable, modern semi-auto are greatly over-exaggerated. 
    - I am a rifleman with a poorly chosen screen name. -
    "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, and speed is the economy of motion" - Scott Jedlinski
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 4,617 Senior Member
    I'm so shocked. Said nobody. 

    The advantages of the DA revolver over a reliable, modern semi-auto are greatly over-exaggerated. 
    I hear all the time DA snub nose is a no thought gun, just pull trigger and it goes bang, no safeties to think of.  Hummmm is that not a Glock too?  And you get faster reloads, easier concealment and a MUCH better trigger pull, better sights AND with all the reliability of the DA revolver, as far as my experience goes.

    I have no problems with the DA trigger but I had two petite girls (sisters) try to shoot it and neither one could pull the trigger in DA mode, one was using TWO fingers.  This is just a stock older S&W model 60.

    GOD I HATE that I'm selling Glocks...  I can hear Zee in the corner chuckling...  :s
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,304 Senior Member

    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 4,617 Senior Member
     :D  :D:D
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 4,617 Senior Member
    I’m THIS close to a 19... 
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 3,772 Senior Member
    I have a G19 and I'm a 1911 fan.

    It's because they're so small, cute and cuddly... Like a bunny rabbit.
    But when push comes to shove, it's no ordinary rabbit!
    👍

    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,304 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    I’m THIS close to a 19... 
    Gen 5. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 4,617 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    GunNut said:
    I’m THIS close to a 19... 
    Gen 5. 
    Correct...
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 4,617 Senior Member
    Spk said:
    I have a G19 and I'm a 1911 fan.

    It's because they're so small, cute and cuddly... Like a bunny rabbit.
    But when push comes to shove, it's no ordinary rabbit!
    👍

    So I keep hearing from this voice in my head that refuses to go away... 😬
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • shotgunshooter3shotgunshooter3 Senior Member Posts: 5,680 Senior Member
    edited July 14 #13
    I spent more money than I want to admit making my Gen 4 19 "Gen 5 ish." It's still "just a Glock," but Glock got a lot of incremental improvements correct in the Gen 5, to the point that I'm considering ordering one IOT go back to carrying a stock gun.

    The only thing I wish Glock would do from the factory is undercut the trigger guard.
    - I am a rifleman with a poorly chosen screen name. -
    "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, and speed is the economy of motion" - Scott Jedlinski
  • joeg52joeg52 Member Posts: 98 Member
    To me, a 19 is a K frame 357. :)
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 4,617 Senior Member
    joeg52 said:
    To me, a 19 is a K frame 357. :)
    With a buttload of rounds in it.
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,053 Senior Member
    I LOVE DA revolvers, but I worked harder to get good with them than most people are probably willing to.

    I have come to think that it probably is the best tool to teach someone the concept that the sights never hold still for you, and that you have to constantly correct through the trigger press, no matter what the trigger system is.  If you're teaching handguns and DON'T have a 4" .22 DA wheelie, you need to go shopping.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • bellcatbellcat Senior Member Posts: 1,754 Senior Member
    Hard to beat a Shield or Glock for SD
    "Kindness is the language the deaf can hear and the blind can see." Mark Twain
  • TugarTugar Senior Member Posts: 2,182 Senior Member
    Bigslug said:
    I LOVE DA revolvers, but I worked harder to get good with them than most people are probably willing to.

    I have come to think that it probably is the best tool to teach someone the concept that the sights never hold still for you, and that you have to constantly correct through the trigger press, no matter what the trigger system is.  If you're teaching handguns and DON'T have a 4" .22 DA wheelie, you need to go shopping.
    Agreed 100%. If you get a failure a combat situation, a new shooter is going to have trouble with tap rack bang drills on an autoloader. Where if the wheelgun has a failure, assuming it's not empty, the drill is USUALLY far simpler. 

    Plus the revolver teaches the basics of the situation better as you KNOW you only have a handful of rounds, not 17+1. Make the shots count. Get good, then get fast.
    Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
    Winston Churchill
  • AntonioAntonio Senior Member Posts: 2,612 Senior Member
    Think the mentality behind this is "why learn to drive stick when you can use an automatic transmission?"

    In my opinion, correctly handling a DA snubby needs more training and trigger discipline, both alien concepts nowadays in our instant-gratification pampered mindsets.

    "Problem" is that yes, in our modern times a semiauto pistol is a better tool for 99.9% of the situations.

    ......then there's the "coolness factor"....


  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 4,617 Senior Member
    edited July 17 #20
    Two more votes today against the DA Snubbie even though one of them shot the gun very well!  One new Glock 43 fan, female, 22.  One new SIG P238 fan, female mid 40s.

    Same two females ROCKED my Kimber Pro Tactical .45 1911 because....  I never told them it was too much gun for them!!!!!! 😁😁😁

    Not one shot for the whole day outside of the -0 zone COM on an IDPA official target at 4-7 yards offhand.
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 3,772 Senior Member
    Antonio said:
    ...
    In my opinion, correctly handling a DA snubby needs more training and trigger discipline, both alien concepts nowadays in our instant-gratification pampered mindsets.

    ...
    ......then there's the "coolness factor"....



    Agreed.
    Reliability is great with a revolver but if a situation goes beyond 1 cylinder or 5 maybe 6 rounds, I start seeing problems pop up. A lot of folks don't bother carrying at least 1 reload. They often don't practice reloading and when I ask them about it, I usually get, "I don't think it'll be necessary." Let's hope so 🙏

    Also, over here on this side, I've seen quite a few folks who either expect to get "good" after one session or fall into the category of not much training will be necessary because they'll see it coming and it'll be very close. Again, let's hope they're right. But letting a BG, that you already know is trying to hurt you, in close presents it's own set of problems.
    Whatever weapon you choose to carry, practice the reloads, even if you don't think it'll ever be necessary.

    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,111 Senior Member
    Try telling that to my wife...
    She loves her DA-only Charter Arms snubbie. She does "ok" with it, but she could do better. I'd own a smartphone before she'd own a semi-auto pistol, and Goddess knows I've tried.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 10,478 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    Try telling that to my wife...
    She loves her DA-only Charter Arms snubbie. She does "ok" with it, but she could do better. I'd own a smartphone before she'd own a semi-auto pistol, and Goddess knows I've tried.
    At least she goes to the range and shoots. Much better than most
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 4,617 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    Try telling that to my wife...
    She loves her DA-only Charter Arms snubbie. She does "ok" with it, but she could do better. I'd own a smartphone before she'd own a semi-auto pistol, and Goddess knows I've tried.
    There’s as many exceptions to trends as there are humans.  As my dad use to say, water finds is own level.
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,263 Senior Member
    edited July 18 #25
    I would assume you explain to these women what happens to a semi-auto when it is discharged while it is jammed in tight into the ribs of an assailant on top of them. Does the FBI keep stats on how women are attacked, ambushed vs. frontal assault?

    Meh, no methodology to the attacks, but, glad to see the stats are down quite a bit in this report. 

    https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvv.pdf
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,111 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    zorba said:
    Try telling that to my wife...
    She loves her DA-only Charter Arms snubbie. She does "ok" with it, but she could do better. I'd own a smartphone before she'd own a semi-auto pistol, and Goddess knows I've tried.
    There’s as many exceptions to trends as there are humans.  As my dad use to say, water finds is own level.
    Yea - I try to get her to shoot my semis, and she will for a shot or two, sometimes an entire magazine, but she won't be talked out of her snubbie. That's fine - she likes it and that's the most important thing. She tried LOTS of revolvers before selecting the Charter - very particular about the grips. She doesn't like small grips!
    She claims she doesn't like semis because of the flying brass. She's a lefty, so she says the brass flying out to the right across her field of view is distracting. So I let her shoot my P.38 which ejects left - nope, that didn't work either. It is what it is...

    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • KSUFirefighter2KSUFirefighter2 Posts: 22 New Member
    I finally joined the dark side......
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 4,617 Senior Member
    I finally joined the dark side......
    HA!  Zee works his damn magic again... he is secretly smiling in the corner...
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 4,617 Senior Member
    Two more votes in.  A young couple ins the twenties.  Just got an email from him telling me they really enjoyed the training and it ws a great experience firing multiple firearms side by side, and they wanted me to email them a list of the guns they fired at the range except, and I quote, "that damned little revolver we both hated".

    I SWEAR I am not trying at ALL to impose preconceived notions on the new shooters.  I'm actually going out of my way to NOT influence their opinions, AT ALL!!!  BTW he shot the revolver just fine and accurately.  She did to for the most part, just hated the ergonomics and trigger pull.
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • shotgunshooter3shotgunshooter3 Senior Member Posts: 5,680 Senior Member
    edited July 19 #30
    I have been thinking about this a bit, and more specifically some age old conceptions about revolvers that I think are exaggerated or generally applied out of context:

    - It's the simplest mechanism. No safety, etc. "The original point and click." Eh, so is a Glock or a myriad of other semi-autos, with better ergonomics and an easier trigger to learn

    - A revolver will not jam. False. A revolver is significantly less likely to jam, I will say that. However, I counter that when it does jam it is down for the count, period. When a semi-auto jams, there is a high likelihood that it can be quickly corrected.

    Revolvers have their place. I even carry a J-frame from time to time. However, I feel for most shooters a reliable semi-auto is a far better choice. Costs less, easier to shoot, easier to conceal, and quite reliable. 
    - I am a rifleman with a poorly chosen screen name. -
    "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, and speed is the economy of motion" - Scott Jedlinski
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,263 Senior Member
    It would appear, based on your polling, that the revolver needs some trigger tuning.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
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