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Question about jacketed hollow points

bluecrayfishbluecrayfish Posts: 1 New Member
Hi everyone. I asked this question in another forum, and it kind of got off track. I'm just interested in the theory, not where I should shoot, or anything else that doesn't address the question.

So here is what I posted "I had a question about using jhp ammuntion. From what I gather it's better for self defense if your hitting body tissue. It seems like it almost requires soft tissue to open up. I have heard some people say that if the hole gets filled with "hard material", it might not open up properly. So, if i was interested in using an ammunition for head shots, would it be better to just go with a fmj bullet vs hollowpoints. I assume the hard surface of the skull may not allow the jhp to expand properly." 

Originally I posted about shooting feral pigs, and it kind of went off the rails about what ammo I should use. So lets play make believe and say that you can only do headshots. Would you pick the jhp or the fmj and why. (.45 acp )

Replies

  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,024 Senior Member
    edited July 28 #2
    Perfect direct frontal head shot on a pig? Your choice. Six of one...half a dozen of the other.

    Less than that, JHP. You can shoot more than once if needed.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,748 Senior Member
    I dont think it would matter. Either one would make a hole. 45acp fmj is a semi sphere. It gets easily deflected at impact. A truncated cone flat nose would be better. Or the hollow point. My opinion.
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,024 Senior Member
    I dont think it would matter. Either one would make a hole. 45acp fmj is a semi sphere. It gets easily deflected at impact. A truncated cone flat nose would be better. Or the hollow point. My opinion.
    Yep.....exactly. "Ball" has a tendency to deflect when offered a much less than perpendicular angle. HP's and flat nose, while not perfect, are more prone to "dig in". 

    And, if it's not a direct frontal brain shot,,,,JHPs. I'd recommend FMJ for elephant and Cape Buffalo, but we're talking about pigs here.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,705 Senior Member
     Well I'd use 10 mm and shoot them in the left foot.

    Welcome aboard.


    Shut up-----KAREN; OK Cynthia
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,705 Senior Member
    Oh, I forgot------have you been in a Turkish prison?
    Shut up-----KAREN; OK Cynthia
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,705 Senior Member
    I guess he wanted to be asked about gladiator movies, since he has not been back.
    Oh well. 
    Shut up-----KAREN; OK Cynthia
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,957 Senior Member
    edited July 29 #8
    Hollow Point. 
    Or
    Truncated . 

    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,139 Senior Member
    Strictly headshots?  Semi or full wadcutter.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,068 Senior Member
    Perfect direct frontal head shot on a pig? Your choice. Six of one...half a dozen of the other.

    Less than that, JHP. You can shoot more than once if needed.

    Mike
    What he said
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,957 Senior Member
    Strictly headshots?  Semi or full wadcutter.

    In a .45 ACP?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,248 Senior Member
    GI hardball was never a great armor piercing round, and round nose is never the best choice for greatly less than 90 degree impacts but I have some doubts as to whether a pig's skull could be considered "armor".

    A flat nose or HP will tend to turn into an angled surface rather than away from it, so probably a better choice.  If a hollow point plugs or collapses and fails to expand, you effectively have an FMJ, so nothing lost there.

    If you get out of head shots, .45 ACP hollowpoints are pretty much all engineered for an upright target on two legs, and they aren't great on penetration depth for a large critter on four.  Probably OK for broadside on pigs, but marginal for quartering angles, 
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 3,962 Senior Member
    edited July 30 #13
    Hi everyone. I asked this question in another forum, and it kind of got off track. I'm just interested in the theory, not where I should shoot, or anything else that doesn't address the question.

    So here is what I posted "I had a question about using jhp ammuntion. From what I gather it's better for self defense if your hitting body tissue. It seems like it almost requires soft tissue to open up. I have heard some people say that if the hole gets filled with "hard material", it might not open up properly. So, if i was interested in using an ammunition for head shots, would it be better to just go with a fmj bullet vs hollowpoints. I assume the hard surface of the skull may not allow the jhp to expand properly." 

    Originally I posted about shooting feral pigs, and it kind of went off the rails about what ammo I should use. So lets play make believe and say that you can only do headshots. Would you pick the jhp or the fmj and why. (.45 acp )
    I suspect, the confusion in your query stems from the inexactness in the way you're presenting it. If you're really interested in the theory we can talk about that but first we need to agree on a few things. First off, not all ammo is loaded to the same velocity, not all JHP's are built the same way and not all impacts will hit at the same spot on the head (except in a slaughterhouse).
    Linefinder already asked you where on the head (perfect frontal, from behind the head, behind the ear?) you can come at a pig's head from a lot of directions. Folks have shot wild pigs with a lot of different calibers. Where, what angle, what bullet, what speed the bullet impacts on the head matters. If this seems like nitpicking, well that's what theory requires -- exactness.
    Will it expand/Won't it expand? What would you use? That's what you're interested in, right? Try to answer our questions, and we can better answer yours.

    What would I use? Zee already answered that one also.

    It seems like it almost requires soft tissue to open up. I have heard some people say that if the hole gets filled with "hard material", it might not open up properly.
    What you're talking about is the interference in the hydraulic response of a hollow point encountering an incompressible fluid (in this case, water at high velocity). The "hard material" some folks describe is a bit of a misnomer since "clogging" of the hollow-point by compressible material is what often leads to hollow-point failures (depends on the design, they're not all made the same). It seems to me that the folks/people you're referring to could be an old discussion about the earlier generation Hydra-Shok ammo that developed a reputation for clogging when encountering clothing. That doesn't happen as often with most of the modern ammo these days (nothing's perfect). Now what about heavy bone material? Understand that each bullet, jacketed or otherwise, was designed with a range of forces in mind, exceed those forces and bullet failure is likely. If I was choosing to make that perfect perpendicular shot through the heaviest, boniest part of the skull to reach the brain, I would use a truncated cone design to avoid bullet failure.

    Btw, Welcome to the forum and be sure to come on back. It's okay, we're freindly. :D


    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    On a pig, deer or cow, if you're going for a facing head shot, draw an imaginary X from ears to opposite eyes. Shoot at the intersection. You can kill all three with a .22 LR doing that. Truncated cone or hollow point will work better for reasons already stated. With any large pistol or most rifle cartridges, a broadside shot into the ear canal is deadly, too, but shot needs to be as horizontal entry as possible. Shots to base of  skull/spine work well, too. 
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • Elk creekElk creek Senior Member Posts: 6,450 Senior Member
    edited July 31 #15
    I can tell you with experience that you can use a 125gr 357 mag  hollow point on a market weight steer. You could get the correct shot placement and still have the steer get up and walk through a 4 wire barbed wire fence! Charolait beef are hard heads! 
    Aim higher, or get a bigger gun.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,748 Senior Member
    Im gonna have to go with NN on this. 10mm to the foot. A simple solution.
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