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Yet another newb.

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  • TwinkleTwinkle Posts: 174 Member
    As far as brand quality....yes, there can be a slight differences, but among the major mfgrs the difference is often a personal bias rather than a verifiable fact. As to safety....never heard of a problem with any of them.

    As Zorb pointed out.....22 rimfire is the most common chambering to fail and "failure to fire" is the most common complaint. This has happened to me maybe 2 dozen times in 55 years and untold thousands of 22 RF rounds.....which is an incredibly good percentage.

    If you encounter a FTF, proceed as follows:
    1) Keep your muzzle pointed downrange.
    2) Slowly count to 10.
    3) After counting 10, with the ejection port pointed away from you or any bystanders, eject the round onto the ground...not into your hand.
    4) Give it another 10 count before you pick it up. At this point it's pretty safe to properly dispose of the dud.

    FWIW, this is pretty rare with new factory center-fire ammo. I've had it happen 2-3 times with CF handgun rounds, but I've never encountered it with a CF rifle round. Usually, with the exception of 22RF, FTF is a platform malfunction, not an ammo issue.

    Mike
    Thanks.  Would this procedure be any different with my one firearm, a revolver?

  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,800 Senior Member
    Regarding your pic......that round is good to shoot. The depression will be smoothed out by the outward pressure of the firing process. A scratch, OTOH, is almost always a judgement call. My very broad rule of thumb is if the scratch is deep enough that it "catches" my fingernail....it gets tossed. Within reason, other than that it gets used again.

    Sometimes prairie dog shooting gets pretty intense and you don't have the time nor inclination to catch every empty before it hits the dirt....and subsequently stepped on. Even after tumbling...some can still look kind of rough. But if I judged by simple cosmetics (or how painful this minor defect would be in a tooth crown) 2/3rds of my p'dog cases would disappear.  :)

    There are safety margins in practically everything, and the shooting sports are no different.

    While I'd never suggest there is no danger in shooting (or breathing, for that matter), shy of an almost deliberate effort to circumvent common sense.....shooting is waaay safer than swimming.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,800 Senior Member
    Twinkle said:
    As far as brand quality....yes, there can be a slight differences, but among the major mfgrs the difference is often a personal bias rather than a verifiable fact. As to safety....never heard of a problem with any of them.

    As Zorb pointed out.....22 rimfire is the most common chambering to fail and "failure to fire" is the most common complaint. This has happened to me maybe 2 dozen times in 55 years and untold thousands of 22 RF rounds.....which is an incredibly good percentage.

    If you encounter a FTF, proceed as follows:
    1) Keep your muzzle pointed downrange.
    2) Slowly count to 10.
    3) After counting 10, with the ejection port pointed away from you or any bystanders, eject the round onto the ground...not into your hand.
    4) Give it another 10 count before you pick it up. At this point it's pretty safe to properly dispose of the dud.

    FWIW, this is pretty rare with new factory center-fire ammo. I've had it happen 2-3 times with CF handgun rounds, but I've never encountered it with a CF rifle round. Usually, with the exception of 22RF, FTF is a platform malfunction, not an ammo issue.

    Mike
    Thanks.  Would this procedure be any different with my one firearm, a revolver?

    Not really.....main point is point #1. Give it time to "hang fire" if it's going to.

    "Failure to fire" (very uncommon, except as noted above) and "Hang fire" are 2 totally different critters. FTF is exactly that. The round fails to go off...period. Hang fire (extremely rare) is a marked delay between firing pin strike and the round going off...for whatever reason. You pull the trigger, but the gun doesn't "boom" for a few seconds. The 10 second delay in opening the action is to allow it enough time do do this, if it's going to. The ejection onto the ground and another 10 second wait is a safety margin, because if it finally decides to go off.....better on the ground than in your hand.

    In a revolver, just do a complete cylinder dump onto the ground. You might have to clean up a few rounds before inserting them into the cylinder again, but the faulty one will exhibit some sign of a firing pin strike on the primer. Pretty hard to not see the difference.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • TwinkleTwinkle Posts: 174 Member
    Twinkle said:
    As far as brand quality....yes, there can be a slight differences, but among the major mfgrs the difference is often a personal bias rather than a verifiable fact. As to safety....never heard of a problem with any of them.

    As Zorb pointed out.....22 rimfire is the most common chambering to fail and "failure to fire" is the most common complaint. This has happened to me maybe 2 dozen times in 55 years and untold thousands of 22 RF rounds.....which is an incredibly good percentage.

    If you encounter a FTF, proceed as follows:
    1) Keep your muzzle pointed downrange.
    2) Slowly count to 10.
    3) After counting 10, with the ejection port pointed away from you or any bystanders, eject the round onto the ground...not into your hand.
    4) Give it another 10 count before you pick it up. At this point it's pretty safe to properly dispose of the dud.

    FWIW, this is pretty rare with new factory center-fire ammo. I've had it happen 2-3 times with CF handgun rounds, but I've never encountered it with a CF rifle round. Usually, with the exception of 22RF, FTF is a platform malfunction, not an ammo issue.

    Mike
    Thanks.  Would this procedure be any different with my one firearm, a revolver?

    Not really.....main point is point #1. Give it time to "hang fire" if it's going to.

    "Failure to fire" (very uncommon, except as noted above) and "Hang fire" are 2 totally different critters. FTF is exactly that. The round fails to go off...period. Hang fire (extremely rare) is a marked delay between firing pin strike and the round going off...for whatever reason. You pull the trigger, but the gun doesn't "boom" for a few seconds. The 10 second delay in opening the action is to allow it enough time do do this, if it's going to. The ejection onto the ground and another 10 second wait is a safety margin, because if it finally decides to go off.....better on the ground than in your hand.

    In a revolver, just do a complete cylinder dump onto the ground. You might have to clean up a few rounds before inserting them into the cylinder again, but the faulty one will exhibit some sign of a firing pin strike on the primer. Pretty hard to not see the difference.

    Mike
    Very clear advice.  With folks like you to ask, I will do fine.  Thank you.

  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,800 Senior Member
    It's what we do.  :)

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    GunNut said:

    Why!?!?!? I look great in mine...

    httpsipinimgcom236x7d15f97d15f91f3b6cfdfb417fc58d82d5da60jpgniit
    Yep... 😂
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,800 Senior Member
    Twinkle said:
    Twinkle said:
    As far as brand quality....yes, there can be a slight differences, but among the major mfgrs the difference is often a personal bias rather than a verifiable fact. As to safety....never heard of a problem with any of them.

    As Zorb pointed out.....22 rimfire is the most common chambering to fail and "failure to fire" is the most common complaint. This has happened to me maybe 2 dozen times in 55 years and untold thousands of 22 RF rounds.....which is an incredibly good percentage.

    If you encounter a FTF, proceed as follows:
    1) Keep your muzzle pointed downrange.
    2) Slowly count to 10.
    3) After counting 10, with the ejection port pointed away from you or any bystanders, eject the round onto the ground...not into your hand.
    4) Give it another 10 count before you pick it up. At this point it's pretty safe to properly dispose of the dud.

    FWIW, this is pretty rare with new factory center-fire ammo. I've had it happen 2-3 times with CF handgun rounds, but I've never encountered it with a CF rifle round. Usually, with the exception of 22RF, FTF is a platform malfunction, not an ammo issue.

    Mike
    Thanks.  Would this procedure be any different with my one firearm, a revolver?

    Not really.....main point is point #1. Give it time to "hang fire" if it's going to.

    "Failure to fire" (very uncommon, except as noted above) and "Hang fire" are 2 totally different critters. FTF is exactly that. The round fails to go off...period. Hang fire (extremely rare) is a marked delay between firing pin strike and the round going off...for whatever reason. You pull the trigger, but the gun doesn't "boom" for a few seconds. The 10 second delay in opening the action is to allow it enough time do do this, if it's going to. The ejection onto the ground and another 10 second wait is a safety margin, because if it finally decides to go off.....better on the ground than in your hand.

    In a revolver, just do a complete cylinder dump onto the ground. You might have to clean up a few rounds before inserting them into the cylinder again, but the faulty one will exhibit some sign of a firing pin strike on the primer. Pretty hard to not see the difference.

    Mike
    Very clear advice.  With folks like you to ask, I will do fine.  Thank you.

    While we all have differing opinions about a lot of things, firearm safety isn't one of them. I've read some pretty wild claims on other gun boards that weren't simply just allowed to remain posted....but were heartily agreed with by folks who didn't know the difference between COAL and length to ogive.

    You won't find that here. We have a pretty self-moderating board, and the tolerance for faulty information and pure BS is pretty much zero by the members, and it's been that way for a few decades. We appreciate that, and I honestly can't remember the last time a moderator actually had to intervene in such a thread.

    Ask any questions you want....simple...complex....embarresing....doesn't matter. Somebody here will know the answer and it will be the correct one. We're not the biggest gun board on the interwebs. Just the best.

    Ask away. Like I said.....it's what we do.

    Mike


    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • TwinkleTwinkle Posts: 174 Member
    Twinkle said:
    Twinkle said:
    As far as brand quality....yes, there can be a slight differences, but among the major mfgrs the difference is often a personal bias rather than a verifiable fact. As to safety....never heard of a problem with any of them.

    As Zorb pointed out.....22 rimfire is the most common chambering to fail and "failure to fire" is the most common complaint. This has happened to me maybe 2 dozen times in 55 years and untold thousands of 22 RF rounds.....which is an incredibly good percentage.

    If you encounter a FTF, proceed as follows:
    1) Keep your muzzle pointed downrange.
    2) Slowly count to 10.
    3) After counting 10, with the ejection port pointed away from you or any bystanders, eject the round onto the ground...not into your hand.
    4) Give it another 10 count before you pick it up. At this point it's pretty safe to properly dispose of the dud.

    FWIW, this is pretty rare with new factory center-fire ammo. I've had it happen 2-3 times with CF handgun rounds, but I've never encountered it with a CF rifle round. Usually, with the exception of 22RF, FTF is a platform malfunction, not an ammo issue.

    Mike
    Thanks.  Would this procedure be any different with my one firearm, a revolver?

    Not really.....main point is point #1. Give it time to "hang fire" if it's going to.

    "Failure to fire" (very uncommon, except as noted above) and "Hang fire" are 2 totally different critters. FTF is exactly that. The round fails to go off...period. Hang fire (extremely rare) is a marked delay between firing pin strike and the round going off...for whatever reason. You pull the trigger, but the gun doesn't "boom" for a few seconds. The 10 second delay in opening the action is to allow it enough time do do this, if it's going to. The ejection onto the ground and another 10 second wait is a safety margin, because if it finally decides to go off.....better on the ground than in your hand.

    In a revolver, just do a complete cylinder dump onto the ground. You might have to clean up a few rounds before inserting them into the cylinder again, but the faulty one will exhibit some sign of a firing pin strike on the primer. Pretty hard to not see the difference.

    Mike
    Very clear advice.  With folks like you to ask, I will do fine.  Thank you.

    While we all have differing opinions about a lot of things, firearm safety isn't one of them. I've read some pretty wild claims on other gun boards that weren't simply just allowed to remain posted....but were heartily agreed with by folks who didn't know the difference between COAL and length to ogive.

    You won't find that here. We have a pretty self-moderating board, and the tolerance for faulty information and pure BS is pretty much zero by the members, and it's been that way for a few decades. We appreciate that, and I honestly can't remember the last time a moderator actually had to intervene in such a thread.

    Ask any questions you want....simple...complex....embarresing....doesn't matter. Somebody here will know the answer and it will be the correct one. We're not the biggest gun board on the interwebs. Just the best.

    Ask away. Like I said.....it's what we do.

    Mike


    Very reassuring!  I like the best!

  • FreezerFreezer Senior Member Posts: 2,522 Senior Member
    I understand SAAMI but could some with a better command of the English language explain it for her. She'll understand the factory standards better.
    I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
  • TwinkleTwinkle Posts: 174 Member
    Freezer said:
    I understand SAAMI but could some with a better command of the English language explain it for her. She'll understand the factory standards better.
    Thanks!  Any clarity is welcomed!

  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,800 Senior Member
    edited August 2020 #162
    SAAMI= Sporting Arms Ammunition Manufacturing Institute.

    A US standards institute that publishes "best practices" standards for commercial production of firearm ammunition, and sale, in the US. Much like the NFPA (National Fire Protection Institute) their guidelines are pretty much accepted as Gospel, or you're positively going to lose any lawsuit your company is involved in.

    That's a very, very short version. Bottom line.....if you, as a commercial mfgr, bypass these standards.....you're gonna get hosed one day.

    Europe uses a very slightly different standard, but they're pretty close.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    That's great you got the book. I still use mine as a reference guide.

    I'd browse everything I could find on your 32 H&R.. The history, and common handloading practices specific to that cartridge will make for great reading.

    Making the ammunition is a simple step by step process. The detailed nuances, and the quiet time engaged in the process have a therapeutic value. 
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,800 Senior Member
    edited August 2020 #164
    And, FWIW, all commonly available reloading manuals will publish recipes and dimensions that fall within these SAMMI guidelines.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • FreezerFreezer Senior Member Posts: 2,522 Senior Member
    edited August 2020 #165
    Let me try it. SAAMI sets the standards for case and bullet dimensions, how much pressure is acceptable for a cartridge with a given bullet weight and powder and other considerations so the cartridge won't damage your gun or you. They set the factory standards and standards for reloading data.  
    I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
  • TwinkleTwinkle Posts: 174 Member
    SAAMI= Sporting Arms Ammunition Manufacturing Institute.

    A US standards institute that publishes "best practices" standards for commercial production of firearm ammunition, and sale, in the US. Much like the NFPA (National Fire Protection Institute) their guidelines are pretty much accepted as Gospel, or you're positively going to lose any lawsuit your company is involved in.

    That's a very, very short version. Bottom line.....if you, as a commercial mfgr, bypass these standards.....you're gonna get hosed one day.

    Europe uses a very slightly different standard, but they're pretty close.

    Mike
    Cool!  thanks Mike!

  • TwinkleTwinkle Posts: 174 Member
    That's great you got the book. I still use mine as a reference guide.

    I'd browse everything I could find on your 32 H&R.. The history, and common handloading practices specific to that cartridge will make for great reading.

    Making the ammunition is a simple step by step process. The detailed nuances, and the quiet time engaged in the process have a therapeutic value. 
    What a great way to look at such a task!  When I make a costume which entails sewing on thousands of beads and sequins, or make a quilt that is made of hundreds of individually sewn blocks pieced together, I approach it as a process similar to what you described.  Therapeutic!  Makes complete sense.

  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 25,184 Senior Member
    edited August 2020 #168
    Just as a datapoint for Twinkle about hang fire: I have some VERY old .303 British ammunition, dating from the 1960s if I remember correctly, maybe older. Not so much because its old per se (although that does have a bearing), but the fact that it was stored (and made) in the heat in Pakistan for decades, means these will sometimes hangfire. Sometimes they won't fire at all, or will fire upon a re-strike ("try it again"), but if they're going to misbehave they do what's called "click-bang" - the gun goes click, then the round goes bang a fraction of a second later. That's the most common type of hangfire to my understanding - so when I'm shooting this stuff (range practice use ONLY) and it doesn't go off, I wait. Usually about 30 seconds myself, then I eject it and go on. I'll probably give the round one more chance since I'm just target shooting.
    Factory ammo, I have yet to have it happen, its extremely rare - but I haven't been shooting as much or as long as most of the rest here. I also have some WW 2 surplus Nazi 9mm ammo that I'm gradually shooting off. None of that has ever done a hangfire, but there's been a few complete duds and a few that went off on a restrike, and a couple more that need a particular gun to work at all because of their hard military primers - none of which you need to worry about with factory ammo.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,800 Senior Member
    Zorb....you pretty much nailed "hang fire". Great job.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • TwinkleTwinkle Posts: 174 Member
    Thanks everybody!  Y'all are becoming my therapy group!  Until I joined this group, I spent way too much time in a political forum and I'd get so angry when folks there would portray gun owners and shooting enthusiasts as knuckle dragging, inbred hicks.  You've all shown me that you are very intelligent people with broad knowledge and such a willingness to share your knowledge and experience.  You have also dispelled the impression left by the guy who "taught" me so well that I got scoped above my eye and derided for wanting to learn to reload.
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,800 Senior Member
    Freezer...

    One point of contention, here....... (see how this works Twinkle?).... SAAMI doesn't endorse nor condone any brand of individual components, powder, cases, primers, projectiles, practices, etc. 

    They arrive at standardized chamber pressures considered safe in the what they consider the "normal" chamber dimensions for the given chambering.  They don't opine on velocity, bullet weight, powder by type, powder by charge, etc...But.....if a commercial mfgr, your stuff is going to fall within the tolerances they specify, or you and your heirs are going to be looking back at the "good old days".

    Max chamber pressure, case dimensions, chamber dimensions...that's pretty much SAAMI's jurisdiction. 

    Mike




    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • FreezerFreezer Senior Member Posts: 2,522 Senior Member
    edited August 2020 #172
    No contention, you are correct. I was trying for a simple overview. I understand what SAAMI is I'm not great at explaining the details.

    Your last sentence said what I was trying to say much more accurately.
    I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,800 Senior Member
    edited August 2020 #173
    Freezer said:
    No contention, you are correct. I was trying for a simple overview. I understand what SAAMI is I'm not great at explaining the details.

    Your last sentence said what I was trying to say much more accurately.
    See, Twinkle. That's what we do.  

    Thanks Freezer....that's why it's great to be here. On other boards, this would have been a three day cat fight.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,767 Senior Member
    Sometimes the cat fights are amusing.
    :D
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • TwinkleTwinkle Posts: 174 Member
    Hey, how do folks feel about a Beretta 950 for a ladies' CC?
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Twinkle said:
    Hey, how do folks feel about a Beretta 950 for a ladies' CC?
    Have you shot it yet?  I had one quite a few years ago when I needed a REALLY tiny gun because of work issues, and I can tell you it is not a very pleasant gun to shoot.  Sights are non existent and the chambering options are not optimal.  I mean if it's what you have by all means do the best you can with it and it beats loud screaming and stomping of feet.  But I would not make it my first choice.  My wife hated it and I sold it shortly after the experiment failed.  Also it's a single action gun and I NEVER felt really comfortable carrying cocked and locked.

    If your heart is set on a gun that size look at the NAA Guardian in .380.  REALLY well made and you can find them at reasonable prices out there.
  • TwinkleTwinkle Posts: 174 Member
    GunNut said:
    Twinkle said:
    Hey, how do folks feel about a Beretta 950 for a ladies' CC?
    Have you shot it yet?  I had one quite a few years ago when I needed a REALLY tiny gun because of work issues, and I can tell you it is not a very pleasant gun to shoot.  Sights are non existent and the chambering options are not optimal.  I mean if it's what you have by all means do the best you can with it and it beats loud screaming and stomping of feet.  But I would not make it my first choice.  My wife hated it and I sold it shortly after the experiment failed.  Also it's a single action gun and I NEVER felt really comfortable carrying cocked and locked.

    If your heart is set on a gun that size look at the NAA Guardian in .380.  REALLY well made and you can find them at reasonable prices out there.
    Thanks for the advice.  I will take it to heart.  I will look up the gun you recommended.

  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Twinkle said:
    GunNut said:
    Twinkle said:
    Hey, how do folks feel about a Beretta 950 for a ladies' CC?
    Have you shot it yet?  I had one quite a few years ago when I needed a REALLY tiny gun because of work issues, and I can tell you it is not a very pleasant gun to shoot.  Sights are non existent and the chambering options are not optimal.  I mean if it's what you have by all means do the best you can with it and it beats loud screaming and stomping of feet.  But I would not make it my first choice.  My wife hated it and I sold it shortly after the experiment failed.  Also it's a single action gun and I NEVER felt really comfortable carrying cocked and locked.

    If your heart is set on a gun that size look at the NAA Guardian in .380.  REALLY well made and you can find them at reasonable prices out there.
    Thanks for the advice.  I will take it to heart.  I will look up the gun you recommended.

    Here’s a few of them.  Very high quality firearm.  I’ve owned a couple of them and have never been disappointed with one.  Again for that type/size gun they are first class.

    https://www.gunbroker.com/Pistols/search?Keywords=naa%20guardian&PageSize=24&Sort=4
  • TwinkleTwinkle Posts: 174 Member
    GunNut said:
    Twinkle said:
    GunNut said:
    Twinkle said:
    Hey, how do folks feel about a Beretta 950 for a ladies' CC?
    Have you shot it yet?  I had one quite a few years ago when I needed a REALLY tiny gun because of work issues, and I can tell you it is not a very pleasant gun to shoot.  Sights are non existent and the chambering options are not optimal.  I mean if it's what you have by all means do the best you can with it and it beats loud screaming and stomping of feet.  But I would not make it my first choice.  My wife hated it and I sold it shortly after the experiment failed.  Also it's a single action gun and I NEVER felt really comfortable carrying cocked and locked.

    If your heart is set on a gun that size look at the NAA Guardian in .380.  REALLY well made and you can find them at reasonable prices out there.
    Thanks for the advice.  I will take it to heart.  I will look up the gun you recommended.

    Here’s a few of them.  Very high quality firearm.  I’ve owned a couple of them and have never been disappointed with one.  Again for that type/size gun they are first class.

    https://www.gunbroker.com/Pistols/search?Keywords=naa%20guardian&PageSize=24&Sort=4
    Thanks GunNut!

  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Twinkle said:
    GunNut said:
    Twinkle said:
    GunNut said:
    Twinkle said:
    Hey, how do folks feel about a Beretta 950 for a ladies' CC?
    Have you shot it yet?  I had one quite a few years ago when I needed a REALLY tiny gun because of work issues, and I can tell you it is not a very pleasant gun to shoot.  Sights are non existent and the chambering options are not optimal.  I mean if it's what you have by all means do the best you can with it and it beats loud screaming and stomping of feet.  But I would not make it my first choice.  My wife hated it and I sold it shortly after the experiment failed.  Also it's a single action gun and I NEVER felt really comfortable carrying cocked and locked.

    If your heart is set on a gun that size look at the NAA Guardian in .380.  REALLY well made and you can find them at reasonable prices out there.
    Thanks for the advice.  I will take it to heart.  I will look up the gun you recommended.

    Here’s a few of them.  Very high quality firearm.  I’ve owned a couple of them and have never been disappointed with one.  Again for that type/size gun they are first class.

    https://www.gunbroker.com/Pistols/search?Keywords=naa%20guardian&PageSize=24&Sort=4
    Thanks GunNut!

    Anytime!  We love spending other folks money... I mean helping others 😁
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 25,184 Senior Member
    Shoot lots of guns. The gun I like, you may hate - and vice versa. I was looking for my own carry piece about 3 years ago, and ended up with a Ruger LC9s. It was neck on neck with the Glock 43 - I ended up with the Ruger because a member here found me a killer deal on one. But I shot every gun I could get my hands on in its class (sub-compact 9mm) - most I liked, a couple I hated, the afore mentioned two I really liked. If I remember correctly, GunNut has a Glock 43 that he really likes. I'll second his rec on North American Arms for "mouse guns" - they're works of art. I own their smallest model, a tiny revolver chambered in .22 short. A completely stupid gun, but hard not to like anyway! Its so tiny that I can't hit the broad side of a barn with it from inside - but it puts a stupid grin on my face every time I try hitting something with it...
    I have a Beretta "Tomcat" .32 semi-auto that I inherited from my father. Even though its "just" a .32, I don't particularly like shooting it, its a nasty shooting little gun - my Ruger is much nicer to shoot and isn't much bigger and its a 9mm. I wouldn't recommend the Tomcat to my worst enemy - but somebody somewhere likes them!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
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