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UFOs

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  • DrawbarFlatsDrawbarFlats Posts: 776 Senior Member
    I've always thought the notion of worm holes fascinating.  I don't understand much about them, or if they even exist.  My understanding is that it's like a black hole with an exit point.  You enter, and instantaneously travel to some place very far away, perhaps even millions of light years away.

    Can you imagine that?
    Me too! Fascinating stuff. There was a movie (Interstellar) a few years back that entertained those theories. And as Justsomedude pointed out, the "aliens" turned out to be us. 
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,398 Senior Member
    ilove22s said:
    not that i know of, but i want too and im still waiting if they are monitoring....hint ...hint....

    and i open for a ride too...
    See the source image


    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • JustsomedudeJustsomedude Posts: 543 Senior Member
    The scariest thought to me is what if the universe was teaming with life at one point in time until either they self destructed or cataclysmic events took them out and we are literally the last of the last left out here. When you look at other planets and moons, they appear the way I would imagine a decimated planet to look after laying dormant for who knows how many years.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,663 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    zorba said:
     If you mean spacecraft from another planet, no. 
    ...and yet, both Voyager 1 & 2 are well beyond our solar system, zipping along to other star systems. 
    That's the problem. They're not "zipping", and they're not manned. It takes centuries to travel to the nearest star, "Star Trek" isn't reality. Then there's the time dimension. To have visitors from another star system means that 1) FTL (or near light speed from a VERY close star) travel must be possible - maybe it is, probably it isn't. 2) The visitors must actually *exist* in the same period of time as we're occupying, and 3) There would have to be something here to attract visitors - the universe is incomprehensibly HUGE in both time and space.
    I put the whole thing down in the same category as I do so-called "Biblical Archaeology". A lot of wishful thinking, "we're *this* close!", and force fitting facts to fit a desired theory. I'm willing to change my mind when and *IF* incontrovertible proof is forthcoming (about either!), but until then, I give it little credence.
    As one of the characters says in a favorite, yet VERY bad sci-fi movie, "Yes, yes, yes, yes. Perhaps the core is made of cheese..."
    You completely missed my point, Zorba. "Zipping" or a 'turtles pace' is irrelevant. Manned or un-manned, we are now an interstellar species living on a 'pale blue dot' in a galaxy made up of hundreds of billions of stars. Whether it's "Biblical Archeology" or possible alien civilizations, one must observe such things with an objective mind and not personal prejudices.   
    Agreed. I'm open to the possibility - but will insist on "reasonable proof". As it is, there hasn't been any, just a lot of wishful thinking and "true believers". Yea, people see things, I've seen things and I don't even drink or do drugs. Whether or not its little green men remains to be seen. The chances of either of the Voyagers ever encountering another intelligent race is virtually nil - EVEN if the universe is full of them! The universe is too big in both space and time to make it likely - yet the chance  *is* greater than zero if the intelligences are indeed out there. But not much greater.
    More likely in my mind would be to possibly eventually find evidence of past civilizations - read "The Tar-Aym Krang" as a fictional example, "2001" is another. Of course this also assumes "they" exist or existed, and there's still the "too big of a universe" problem - and whether or not effective FTL travel is possible. I wouldn't at all be surprised if evidence of past life were to be found on the moon or Mars or possibly others of our planets as there are those who think life may have originated elsewhere in our solar system before it did here. *shrug*
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • JustsomedudeJustsomedude Posts: 543 Senior Member
    I dont think many people can actually grasp the concept as to just how gigantic the universe is. The fact that scientists think they know anything outside of the observable universe is laughable at best.  All i know is that we will never get anywhere in space successfully with gas and/or mechanical propulsion.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,258 Senior Member
    I dont think many people can actually grasp the concept as to just how gigantic the universe is. . .  All i know is that we will never get anywhere in space successfully with gas and/or mechanical propulsion.
    Just snipped for one example.  A lot of talk on this thread about the time travel through large gaps of space takes.

    The real problem - as far as humans are concerned - is that when one gets in a vehicle, one expects to see the end of the journey.  That isn't TECHNICALLY necessary, as you could theoretically build ships that are capable of sustaining multiple generations.  The problem - again, as far as humans are concerned - is that you might get your initial passengers to sign on for that, but their kids, grandkids, etc..., are going to have to deal with the reality that their only purpose in life is to breed and train the ultimate final crew of the mission.  LOTS of things to go wrong with that plan.

    Suspended animation?  Maybe.  Then comes the question of the state of your destination when you FINALLY get there, and the state of your home when you FINALLY get back.  Ripley's 57 years doesn't even begin to cover the scope.

    Then there's time dilation - the phenomenon of your personal time passing more slowly the faster you travel.  Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game series really looked at this in depth.  The basic premise was that they could get up to a considerable fraction of the speed of light, so that a journey to somewhere 35 light years away might take 50 years, but the passengers on the trip might only experience two years of their own time passing.  The big fantasy part of that story was that while they didn't have FTL ships, they did have FTL communication, so that two planets or stationary ships could communicate instantaneously, and ships in transit could communicate with the predictable delays.  The reality of such travel is that you largely cut yourself off from home as soon as you go.

    Another complication of deciding to go is advancement of tech.  Do you launch, committed to the journey in a Model T, only to have the latest Corvette blast past you ten years later?  If you're driving the Corvette, what do you do regarding the guys in the Model T?  Help them out?  Sign a treaty leaving them to their commitment?

    You could also send robots.  A problem with ANY of this long travel exploration is the question of there being anyone left at home who cares how your mission goes.

    Aliens will have the same physics problems.  As for the biology and social problems, who knows?


    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,152 Senior Member
    Bigslug, you and I have been reading some of the same sci-fi novels.  I especially like the “lighthuggers” (generation ships) in the ‘Galaxy’s Edge’ series where when the ships finally arrived long after being passed by the FTL colony ships- the societies on the lighthuggers had gone completely insane from being lost in the long dark and started destroying everything.

    You missed the “downloading the human consciousness into a robotic ship” from the ‘Bobiverse’ series as an option for interstellar exploration :) 
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 5,783 Senior Member
    Lot's of folks assuming everyone in the universe "dies" the same way we do.  We are but one or two generations away from potentially achieving immortality.  Dr. Michio Kaku's Physics of the Future should be required reading for everyone...
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • DrawbarFlatsDrawbarFlats Posts: 776 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    Lot's of folks assuming everyone in the universe "dies" the same way we do.  We are but one or two generations away from potentially achieving immortality.  Dr. Michio Kaku's Physics of the Future should be required reading for everyone...
    I have read all his books with Physics of the Impossible being my favorite. 
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 5,783 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    Lot's of folks assuming everyone in the universe "dies" the same way we do.  We are but one or two generations away from potentially achieving immortality.  Dr. Michio Kaku's Physics of the Future should be required reading for everyone...
    I have read all his books with Physics of the Impossible being my favorite. 
    Met him in person when we hired him to do an executive conference for a bunch of high tech company CIOs and CTOs.  The guy is so ridiculously brilliant I'm pretty sure the lights dimmed a little when he walked into the room.  When it was his turn to speak the room was standing room only and we had over 1,000 high level executives in the room.  It was the ONLY portion of the program when I saw these guys actually taking notes.

    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • PFDPFD Senior Member Posts: 1,331 Senior Member
    edited August 27 #42
    I went to a planetarium in Hawaii the size of an IMAX.

    They did a cool show on our solar system by pointing dots of light all over the dome to symbolize nights sky.

    Towards the end, they took all of the dots and converged them into one small dot as they "zoomed out".

    Then they filled the dome with a thousand more dots. One for each solar system like ours.

    Then they brought all of the dots together into one as they zoomed out...

    I wondered how tiny our solar system was inside that tiny dot.

    It sort of drive home the vastness of it.
    That's all I got.

    Paul
  • ilove22silove22s Senior Member Posts: 1,390 Senior Member
    edited August 27 #43
    I wondered how tiny our solar system was inside that tiny dot.

    It sort of drive home the vastness of it.

    When i first saw the Milkey Way, i thought it was clouds.   Then realized what it was.  

    It still blows my mind knowing each star is probably a solar system/galaxy like ours.  

    when i saw my first galaxy in my telescope, i was in awe.  Again, a Galaxy with how many stars.

    it would be so easy to get lost in thought about whats out there and the possibilities.  






    The ears never lie.

    - Don Burt
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,036 Senior Member
    Although I live in Colorado, the absolute best view of the stars I've ever seen was at Philmont Scout Ranch near Cimmarron, NM.  That was a sight to behold.

    Ever since I moved to Colorado, I've vowed to spend the night in the bed of my truck 150 miles east of town on the high plains, just to star gaze. I've not done it yet, but it's an easily achievable bucket list thing I really need to cross off. I've just gotta get around to doing it.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,663 Senior Member
    Love stargazing when there aren't any lites. Ship way out at sea is perfect.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • DrawbarFlatsDrawbarFlats Posts: 776 Senior Member

    Ever since I moved to Colorado, I've vowed to spend the night in the bed of my truck 150 miles east of town on the high plains, just to star gaze. I've not done it yet, but it's an easily achievable bucket list thing I really need to cross off. I've just gotta get around to doing it.

    Mike
    Just be sure to have Johann Strauss playing.
  • JustsomedudeJustsomedude Posts: 543 Senior Member
    And people wonder why my only regret will be dying someday to never be able to find all the answers to the questions we've asked here.
  • ilove22silove22s Senior Member Posts: 1,390 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    Love stargazing when there aren't any lites. Ship way out at sea is perfect.

    big +1 for that.
    The ears never lie.

    - Don Burt
  • DrawbarFlatsDrawbarFlats Posts: 776 Senior Member
    And people wonder why my only regret will be dying someday to never be able to find all the answers to the questions we've asked here.
    Personally, I believe in the opposite. I think the answers will be revealed after death. 
  • JustsomedudeJustsomedude Posts: 543 Senior Member
    And people wonder why my only regret will be dying someday to never be able to find all the answers to the questions we've asked here.
    Personally, I believe in the opposite. I think the answers will be revealed after death. 
    Its 50/50 for me. It either will or won't. I also tend to fear things that I dont know or have never experienced. 
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 5,783 Senior Member
    And people wonder why my only regret will be dying someday to never be able to find all the answers to the questions we've asked here.
    Personally, I believe in the opposite. I think the answers will be revealed after death. 
    Yep...  
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • Lonewolf-PeruLonewolf-Peru Member Posts: 452 Member
    And people wonder why my only regret will be dying someday to never be able to find all the answers to the questions we've asked here.
    Personally, I believe in the opposite. I think the answers will be revealed after death. 

    I think it depends.
    If you are going Up , you will get the answers.
    Down, the will leave you in the dark
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,258 Senior Member
    And people wonder why my only regret will be dying someday to never be able to find all the answers to the questions we've asked here.
    Personally, I believe in the opposite. I think the answers will be revealed after death. 
    We're in the dark in life.  I seriously doubt being dead will get us any better access to the classified files.

    One explanation to UFO's might be robotic exploration.  From a human perspective, this will probably be a necessary step for us - - with some serious problems.

    You don't want to launch an interstellar voyage based just on one of your telescopes telling you a planet MIGHT be Earth-like.  When you get there you might find a toxic atmosphere or a cycle of weather or volcanism you can't deal with.  Not only are you going to need to send probes, you're going to need to send a bunch of them to each potential destination - some to stay long enough to confirm conditions are favorably stable not only on the planet, but it's whole solar system and stellar region; some to come back early-ish and tell you that you might have a place worth going to and what to start packing; and more to say, "Yep. Come on out".  Then you need to repeat that for each possibile place to go.

    Can anybody say "Funding problems"?   Not only that, due to the likely time scales involved, humans aren't going to be able to wrap their heads around the idea of working to build a home for their great-to-the-fifth-power grandchildren.  Before we can take THAT leap, we're going to need to learn how to exist in space in a way our biology can regard as close enough to Olduvai Gorge to be "normal".  Just like the sailing voyages of discovery in our past, that will require the immediate motivation of personal desperation or greed to get us into our own solar system to start figuring it out.

    Again, these are not necessarily problems for aliens, but the problem of resource-allocation very likely would be, so robot probes, A.K.A. "U.F.O.s" might be their efficient option, explaining why they aren't making contact - - not in their programming.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • DrawbarFlatsDrawbarFlats Posts: 776 Senior Member
    edited August 29 #54
    ilove22s said:
    I wondered how tiny our solar system was inside that tiny dot.

    It sort of drive home the vastness of it.

    When i first saw the Milkey Way, i thought it was clouds.   Then realized what it was.  

    It still blows my mind knowing each star is probably a solar system/galaxy like ours.  

    when i saw my first galaxy in my telescope, i was in awe.  Again, a Galaxy with how many stars.

    it would be so easy to get lost in thought about whats out there and the possibilities.  






    Same here. What blows me away is that our own star is so close that it brings us light and heat during the day, while at night, each one of those points of light are stars so far away they cannot bring light and heat on the scale of our Sun. Some of those stars are so big that if they were in place of our Sun their surface would reach out to the orbit of Jupiter! Really gives a perspective on the insane distance of those stars as compared to our Sun which is a mere 8 light minutes away. I remember reading that it would take Voyager 1, traveling at 38,000 mph, something like 70,000 years to reach the nearest star. 
  • JustsomedudeJustsomedude Posts: 543 Senior Member
    And just think, a couple hundred years ago it was risky to sail to the unknown world. Humans really do advance technologically fast.
  • ilove22silove22s Senior Member Posts: 1,390 Senior Member
    ilove22s said:
    I wondered how tiny our solar system was inside that tiny dot.

    It sort of drive home the vastness of it.

    When i first saw the Milkey Way, i thought it was clouds.   Then realized what it was.  

    It still blows my mind knowing each star is probably a solar system/galaxy like ours.  

    when i saw my first galaxy in my telescope, i was in awe.  Again, a Galaxy with how many stars.

    it would be so easy to get lost in thought about whats out there and the possibilities.  






    Same here. What blows me away is that our own star is so close that it brings us light and heat during the day, while at night, each one of those points of light are stars so far away they cannot bring light and heat on the scale of our Sun. Some of those stars are so big that if they were in place of our Sun their surface would reach out to the orbit of Jupiter! Really gives a perspective on the insane distance of those stars as compared to our Sun which is a mere 8 light minutes away. I remember reading that it would take Voyager 1, traveling at 38,000 mph, something like 70,000 years to reach the nearest star. 

    a big +1

    i think there was some show on space and someone mentioned there was ALOT of space between the stars/galaxies....

    I remember an official from NASA along time ago visiting our OMSI. Oregon Museum of Science and Industry to give a talk on one of the Pioneer probes that was to leave our solar system.  

    to me, that was sort of mind boggling since how long it took to get to where it was at that moment and how long it would take to achieve that and then just to make it out of our solar system..  Then not much else in between for a long time.





    The ears never lie.

    - Don Burt
  • DrawbarFlatsDrawbarFlats Posts: 776 Senior Member
    And just think, a couple hundred years ago it was risky to sail to the unknown world. Humans really do advance technologically fast.
    Ain't that the truth. Martin Dugard, who co-writes the Killing series with Bill O'Reilly, wrote an outstanding book titled, Further Than Any Man. The book details the voyages of Captain James Cook who circumnavigated the planet nearly three times between 1766 and 1779. Fighting off storms, scurvy, hostile natives, etc., it's incredible to think of the unknowns those sailors faced in the name of exploration. They discovered news lands, navigational passages, indigenous tribes, new zoological species - even observed the transit of Venus! Those sailors had the brass balls to explore the unknowns in the age of sail. Today, we name many of our space and terrestrial craft in honor of those men and their ships - names like Endeavour, Magellan, Challenger, and even names after fictional ships such as Enterprise and Nautilus. Sadly, today we are now rotting as an exploration species. Space truly is the Final Frontier. Hopefully we'll someday return to that mindset instead of Boldly Going Where Everyone Has Gone Before. 
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,740 Senior Member
    The Nautilus and the Enterprise weren't originally fictional ships, go back a long while before Star Trek.  I think we've reached the limit of our exploring because we don't have the means to go to other planets.  Not a matter of only distance, a matter of means to go that distance.  And funds...the New World was discovered by Vikings and Columbus because they were motivated by hopes of wealth.  We all know the reasons.  There doesn't seem to be a financial incentive for going to Mars, for example.  Maybe things will change but I don't see it now with all the proscriptions on space travel.  We can't afford to explore simply for explorations sake.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,663 Senior Member
    Plus we're too busy arguing Iron Age religion and Victorian Era economics!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 10,915 Senior Member
    Although I live in Colorado, the absolute best view of the stars I've ever seen was at Philmont Scout Ranch near Cimmarron, NM.  That was a sight to behold.

    Ever since I moved to Colorado, I've vowed to spend the night in the bed of my truck 150 miles east of town on the high plains, just to star gaze. I've not done it yet, but it's an easily achievable bucket list thing I really need to cross off. I've just gotta get around to doing it.

    Mike
    That will be an amazing view.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • AlleyCatAlleyCat Posts: 361 Member
    ilove22s said:
    I wondered how tiny our solar system was inside that tiny dot.

    It sort of drive home the vastness of it.

    When i first saw the Milkey Way, i thought it was clouds.   Then realized what it was.  

    It still blows my mind knowing each star is probably a solar system/galaxy like ours.  

    when i saw my first galaxy in my telescope, i was in awe.  Again, a Galaxy with how many stars.

    it would be so easy to get lost in thought about whats out there and the possibilities.  






    Same here. What blows me away is that our own star is so close that it brings us light and heat during the day, while at night, each one of those points of light are stars so far away they cannot bring light and heat on the scale of our Sun. Some of those stars are so big that if they were in place of our Sun their surface would reach out to the orbit of Jupiter! Really gives a perspective on the insane distance of those stars as compared to our Sun which is a mere 8 light minutes away. I remember reading that it would take Voyager 1, traveling at 38,000 mph, something like 70,000 years to reach the nearest star. 

    With speed of light, we are actually looking into the past.

    Many of those pinpricks of light no longer exist.







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