Home Main Category Second Amendment/Politics

Here we go again, HOA overreach...

zorbazorba Senior MemberPosts: 24,324 Senior Member
Wasn't sure where to post this, so I figured "politics" would be safe...

Another HOA and vet's flag debacle:
If I were involved with this, the $6,600 would be the least of this HOA's concerns - the lawsuit would be HUGE.

-Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

"If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
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Replies

  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Tis why I would NEVER EVER live in one of those 'Hores On Acid' places. They're run by neo Nazis on a power trip. I have visited a few friends that live in them, and have had some hilarious confrontations with the little Nazis over my pickup truck in the driveway when they rolled up in their little golf cart and got all 'obey my authoritay!' shtick. (I was helping the friend move in/out stuff from their house and they didn't have a pickup truck) They ALL got introduced to well educated Sailor Speak 101.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,565 Senior Member
    IF the rules say that everyone is to fly flags from poles attached to their homes, AND the guy signed them in an agreement, AND he never got written permission, then he cant have a pole. Does the HOA get to sell his house? Maybe. Can they put a lien against it? Yep. If the lein isnt paid can the person collect the debt by taking the property? Yep.

    This isnt a vet/flag thing. This is a guy who moved into an area, signed a legally binding contract, and now wants to do anything he wants. If he wanted to do that, he shouldnt have moved into the development. He had a choice, he made his choice.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,324 Senior Member
    edited September 2020 #4
    From a legal standpoint, you're right. From an ethical standpoint, not so much. What you have here is a case of (presumably) legal bullying by a tin pot dictatorship. If I were a Christian, I'd say there's a special place in Hell for such - but as I'm not, I'll just say "Karma's a bitch".
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,470 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    From a legal standpoint, you're right. From an ethical standpoint, not so much. What you have here is a case of (presumably) legal bullying by a tin pot dictatorship. If I were a Christian, I'd say there's a special place in Hell for such - but as I'm not, I'll just say "Karma's a bitch".
    Normally, I am totally against HOAs. I hate them.

    however... when did it become morally OK to break a legally binding agreement you signed?
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,347 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    From a legal standpoint, you're right. From an ethical standpoint, not so much. What you have here is a case of (presumably) legal bullying by a tin pot dictatorship. If I were a Christian, I'd say there's a special place in Hell for such - but as I'm not, I'll just say "Karma's a bitch".
    Normally, I am totally against HOAs. I hate them.

    however... when did it become morally OK to break a legally binding agreement you signed?
    I'm not a huge fan though the one that I have now (actually a POA) is fantastic.  I read all the bylaws and I can live with them, I'm invited to all meetings where I can voice an opinion on any topic and will be heard, there is a fair appeals process if I disagree with any opinion of theirs and they maintain the place in incredibly high standards.  I'm good.

    Years ago I lived in a condo with a TERRIBLE HOA.  Their problem was they were too lax with tons of violations going on with no accountability.  There was even some douchebag running a limo company out of his unit (against the rules) and he was eating up precious parking by lining up 3 limos sideways on a parking lane eating up about 12 parking spots.  

    What was our solution? My buddy and I aggressively ran for the board, took it over and threw out a bunch of useless dead wood with Napoleon complexes.  Fixed the whole place in about 6 months including throwing the Limo guy's business off the premises.
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 2,122 Senior Member
    I am on the hunt for some acreage and I have told my real estate agent numerous times that if he brings me anything to look at that is in an HOA of any kind it will be an automatic hard NO!  That is one requirement that I will not budge on under any circumstances.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,324 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    From a legal standpoint, you're right. From an ethical standpoint, not so much. What you have here is a case of (presumably) legal bullying by a tin pot dictatorship. If I were a Christian, I'd say there's a special place in Hell for such - but as I'm not, I'll just say "Karma's a bitch".
    Normally, I am totally against HOAs. I hate them.

    however... when did it become morally OK to break a legally binding agreement you signed?
    When a tinpot dictator starts throwing their weight around. The devil's in the details.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,324 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    I'm not a huge fan though the one that I have now (actually a POA) is fantastic.  I read all the bylaws and I can live with them, I'm invited to all meetings where I can voice an opinion on any topic and will be heard, there is a fair appeals process if I disagree with any opinion of theirs and they maintain the place in incredibly high standards.  I'm good.

    Years ago I lived in a condo with a TERRIBLE HOA.  Their problem was they were too lax with tons of violations going on with no accountability.  There was even some douchebag running a limo company out of his unit (against the rules) and he was eating up precious parking by lining up 3 limos sideways on a parking lane eating up about 12 parking spots.  

    What was our solution? My buddy and I aggressively ran for the board, took it over and threw out a bunch of useless dead wood with Napoleon complexes.  Fixed the whole place in about 6 months including throwing the Limo guy's business off the premises.
    There are two, and only two, types of HOAs. Tin Pot dictatorships and laissez faire crap holes. Anything else is merely a transition (or attempted transition) from one of the above two states to the other - it won't sustain itself in the long term.
    I've dealt with both types - and I had to get *VERY* nasty with the idiot property manager of the laissez faire example to get her to enforce the rules about a stinky pickup truck that was left running and filling my unit with ghastly gasses... Like GunNut, my wife and another gal got on the board and *tried* to clean up the mess - but it was untenable as the dead wood outvoted them. We ended up selling out, "You can keep it". I still miss the unit we had there.
    Never again. Its bad enough that we have an investment property in the first type - a bunch of busybodies with nothing else to do...




    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,832 Senior Member
    I am normally STRONGLY opposed to HOA's.

    I'm not sure how I feel about this one.

    I see it in a similar light as the folks who buy a house in a development next to an existing farm/race track/gun range and then sue to have the "offending" place shut down due to the noise/smell
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • JustsomedudeJustsomedude Posts: 753 Senior Member
    Much like anything else, sign a bunch on jargon without reading it and deal with the aftermath later. I have issues with authority as it is so my opinion won't be popular. Can't stand a boyscout mindset.
    We've been conditioned to believe that obedience is virtuous and voting is freedom- 
  • Great OutdoorsGreat Outdoors Member Posts: 323 Member
    IF the rules say that everyone is to fly flags from poles attached to their homes, AND the guy signed them in an agreement, AND he never got written permission, then he cant have a pole. Does the HOA get to sell his house? Maybe. Can they put a lien against it? Yep. If the lein isnt paid can the person collect the debt by taking the property? Yep.

    This isnt a vet/flag thing. This is a guy who moved into an area, signed a legally binding contract, and now wants to do anything he wants. If he wanted to do that, he shouldnt have moved into the development. He had a choice, he made his choice.
    This is not always true- we bought a house in a neighborhood with no HOA- the neighborhood expanded over the years to become 5 connected neighborhoods and they wanted an HOA- under S.C. law- if 80 % of the residents of a defined neighborhood vote to form a HOA- the other 20% are forced into abiding by it's rules and paying the dues/fines. I didn't fit well in the HOA and had harassment lawsuits against the board for selective enforcement until they decided to leave me alone. We sold that house and moved to 43 acres.
  • JustsomedudeJustsomedude Posts: 753 Senior Member
    For me it always goes back to my moral flowchart:
    Are my actions affecting you?
    Yes- I'm in the wrong and won't continue whatever it is I was doing.
    No- Leave me the hell alone.
    Its hard for me to abide by things that I had/have no say in which directs me back to my above flowchart.
    We've been conditioned to believe that obedience is virtuous and voting is freedom- 
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,832 Senior Member
    For me it always goes back to my moral flowchart:
    Are my actions affecting you?
    Yes- I'm in the wrong and won't continue whatever it is I was doing.
    No- Leave me the hell alone.
    Its hard for me to abide by things that I had/have no say in which directs me back to my above flowchart.
    Only thing I'd add to your flow chart, "Did I sign a legally binding contract saying I won't do it? 
    Yes- I'm in the wrong and won't continue whatever it is I was doing.
    No- Leave me the hell alone.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • JustsomedudeJustsomedude Posts: 753 Senior Member
    Thats the part about me not liking boyscout thinking. Ill break every arbitrary rule and law there is if:
    1. I won't get caught.
    2. It doesn't affect anyone else. 
    We've been conditioned to believe that obedience is virtuous and voting is freedom- 
  • DrawbarFlatsDrawbarFlats Posts: 788 Senior Member
     I have issues with authority as it is so my opinion won't be popular. Can't stand a boyscout mindset.

    You and me both, Brother, ... you and me both. Unlike some here who don't have the balls or moral aptitude to fight for what's right I will never submit to tyranny. PERIOD!

  • DrawbarFlatsDrawbarFlats Posts: 788 Senior Member
    knitepoet said:
    For me it always goes back to my moral flowchart:
    Are my actions affecting you?
    Yes- I'm in the wrong and won't continue whatever it is I was doing.
    No- Leave me the hell alone.
    Its hard for me to abide by things that I had/have no say in which directs me back to my above flowchart.
    Only thing I'd add to your flow chart, "Did I sign a legally binding contract saying I won't do it? 
    Yes- I'm in the wrong and won't continue whatever it is I was doing.
    No- Leave me the hell alone.
    Piss on their "legally binding contract." 
  • DrawbarFlatsDrawbarFlats Posts: 788 Senior Member
    edited September 2020 #18
    Thats the part about me not liking boyscout thinking. Ill break every arbitrary rule and law there is if:
    1. I won't get caught.
    2. It doesn't affect anyone else. 
    Yep. Seems our Founders had the same mindset in regards to "legally binding contracts." They told ol' King George to go $#@% himself. Sadly, many so-called "conservatives" have lost that ideology. 

    ETA: Makes me wonder if some of the members here will "turn em' all in" when the 2A is repealed - (sarc) after all, it's a "legally binding contract" ... right?  
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Put up an outside TV antenna on a pole attached to the house and use the pole for the flag, too.

    I wouldn't be above spreading a 50# bag of ammonium nitrate fertilizer on each of the lawns of the HOA Nazis, either. They'd be so busy mowing, or getting their yard mowed, 3X per week that they'd have little time for any meddling with neighbors. And don't spread it evenly; spread in irregular stripes, like lettering. The grass thus fertilized grows much faster and is much greener, making the lettering obvious. 

    On the other hand, sounds like a good 1st Amendment freedom of speech lawsuit against the HOA would be appropriate, too. In the meantime take the pole and flag down, and go to every meeting of the brown shirt Nazis and raise hell, and  get like minded neighbors to do the same with you. When dealing with some animals ya got to hit them over the head with a 2x4 to first get their attention.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,565 Senior Member
    knitepoet said:
    For me it always goes back to my moral flowchart:
    Are my actions affecting you?
    Yes- I'm in the wrong and won't continue whatever it is I was doing.
    No- Leave me the hell alone.
    Its hard for me to abide by things that I had/have no say in which directs me back to my above flowchart.
    Only thing I'd add to your flow chart, "Did I sign a legally binding contract saying I won't do it? 
    Yes- I'm in the wrong and won't continue whatever it is I was doing.
    No- Leave me the hell alone.
    Piss on their "legally binding contract." 

    So basically screw everyone elses rights who want to live there. Rights dont make you special. Your STOP where the next guys begin. If you didnt want to do what you agreed to do, then you shouldn't agree to it. Pretty hard to make the case about rights when you are against others having theirs. A large part of the Founding Fathers were merchants. How do you think it would go if you contracted to Sam Adams or John Hancock then reneged because you didnt think you had to?

    This guy did NOT have to sign the contract, he had every right not to. Once he did, he has the RESPONSIBILITY to do what he said he would. He consented to have his property taken when he signed the contract. Now he doesnt like it. Tough noogies. If he wanted a pole, he had every right to appeal (he did not finish the process) or move. No one is forcing him to stay there. In fact, if he paid the fees (like he agreed to by signing the contract) then he could still stay.

    I have always been extremely clear that I believe rights are absolute, for everyone, as are the responsibilities that go with them.


    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,832 Senior Member
    edited September 2020 #21
    knitepoet said:
    For me it always goes back to my moral flowchart:
    Are my actions affecting you?
    Yes- I'm in the wrong and won't continue whatever it is I was doing.
    No- Leave me the hell alone.
    Its hard for me to abide by things that I had/have no say in which directs me back to my above flowchart.
    Only thing I'd add to your flow chart, "Did I sign a legally binding contract saying I won't do it? 
    Yes- I'm in the wrong and won't continue whatever it is I was doing.
    No- Leave me the hell alone.
    Piss on their "legally binding contract." 
    So, you're saying your word isn't worth a damn then?
    Because by signing that HOA contract, you're giving your word that you'll follow it
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,324 Senior Member

    So basically screw everyone else's rights who want to live there. Rights dont make you special. Your STOP where the next guys begin. If you didnt want to do what you agreed to do, then you shouldn't agree to it. Pretty hard to make the case about rights when you are against others having theirs. A large part of the Founding Fathers were merchants. How do you think it would go if you contracted to Sam Adams or John Hancock then reneged because you didnt think you had to?

    Nobody has the right to tell me how to live on MY property - as long as my noise doesn't intrude on others, they have no "right" whatsoever to tell me what time I put my trashcans away, what color I paint my house, what I have parked in my driveway, or flag that I fly - nothing.
    Yea, he shouldn't have signed the contract - unfortunately, I don't think there are ANY new housing developments that don't have HOAs and the shullbit that goes with them. Since local gov'ts couldn't possibly get away with the draconian nonsense promulgated by HOAs, they make approval of a new housing development contingent upon their being one (an HOA) and letting the resultant Nazis do their (the gov't's) dirty work for them.
    I'm with TennMike on this one, there aren't enough words in the "Sailor's guide" to describe my opinion of this nonsense or what they can do with themselves.
    I did some research on RV parking in our neighborhood. Apparently, there was QUITE the kerfuffle at a series of county board meetings a number of years ago. The county board was told in no uncertain terms, "You are NOT an HOA, BUTT OUT!". Which is as it should be.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,417 Senior Member
    I try to stay out of things, and generally do......but......

    Yes, I was a Boy-Scout....Eagle, in fact. I was a Sgt of Marines, too. As two we both swore oaths and one signed a contract. Pretty iron-clad, IMO, unless your word doesn't mean much and your comrades/neighbors can't count on you.

    HMO's suck.  I choose not to live in an HMO neighborhood, but my in-laws chose to do so. Silly stupid rules from what I saw.  Everyones porch light on at 7PM...(reduces home burglaries by a huge percentage). Grass no more than 2" tall (mosquitoes don't like to land on short stiffgrass),  Houses painted in a "reasonable" color. (Hard to lend your house much curb appeal should you need to sell it for an unforeseen emergency if the neighbor to the left has painted theirs hot pink and the one to the right flat black.) We could even discuss plastic pink flamingos. Can't say, in retrospect, I'd disagree with any of those reasons.

    Suck it up, buttercup.....it can go both ways. Doesn't have a thing to do with anyones "rights". It has everything to do with what you agreed to, or what commitments you feel you can slink out of......I don't care what your opinion is....it'll change as soon as the ink's dried or your feelings get hurt.

    The world does actually need a few more Boy Scouts.....and less snowflakes.

    Mike


    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • DrawbarFlatsDrawbarFlats Posts: 788 Senior Member
    knitepoet said:
    For me it always goes back to my moral flowchart:
    Are my actions affecting you?
    Yes- I'm in the wrong and won't continue whatever it is I was doing.
    No- Leave me the hell alone.
    Its hard for me to abide by things that I had/have no say in which directs me back to my above flowchart.
    Only thing I'd add to your flow chart, "Did I sign a legally binding contract saying I won't do it? 
    Yes- I'm in the wrong and won't continue whatever it is I was doing.
    No- Leave me the hell alone.
    Piss on their "legally binding contract." 

    So basically screw everyone elses rights who want to live there. Rights dont make you special. Your STOP where the next guys begin. If you didnt want to do what you agreed to do, then you shouldn't agree to it. Pretty hard to make the case about rights when you are against others having theirs. A large part of the Founding Fathers were merchants. How do you think it would go if you contracted to Sam Adams or John Hancock then reneged because you didnt think you had to?

    This guy did NOT have to sign the contract, he had every right not to. Once he did, he has the RESPONSIBILITY to do what he said he would. He consented to have his property taken when he signed the contract. Now he doesnt like it. Tough noogies. If he wanted a pole, he had every right to appeal (he did not finish the process) or move. No one is forcing him to stay there. In fact, if he paid the fees (like he agreed to by signing the contract) then he could still stay.

    I have always been extremely clear that I believe rights are absolute, for everyone, as are the responsibilities that go with them.


    Against other people's rights? LOL!!! Oh please. What I do on my property is no one else's damned business. If they don't like the flag then there's a simple solution - don't look at it. 
  • DrawbarFlatsDrawbarFlats Posts: 788 Senior Member
    edited September 2020 #25
    knitepoet said:
    knitepoet said:
    For me it always goes back to my moral flowchart:
    Are my actions affecting you?
    Yes- I'm in the wrong and won't continue whatever it is I was doing.
    No- Leave me the hell alone.
    Its hard for me to abide by things that I had/have no say in which directs me back to my above flowchart.
    Only thing I'd add to your flow chart, "Did I sign a legally binding contract saying I won't do it? 
    Yes- I'm in the wrong and won't continue whatever it is I was doing.
    No- Leave me the hell alone.
    Piss on their "legally binding contract." 
    So, you're saying your word isn't worth a damn then?
    Because by signing that HOA contract, you're giving your word that you'll follow it
    When it comes to an anti-American HOA board? Yes, that's EXACTLTY what I'm saying: my word isn't worth a damn. Now hold my beer and watch my actions. (...Hoists Old Glory up flagpole on MY property!) I love a good fight. 
  • JustsomedudeJustsomedude Posts: 753 Senior Member
    edited September 2020 #26
    I'm curious how flying a flag on your own property steps on the neighbors rights? It doesn't. I agreed to all kinds of crap when I got my drivers license but you best believe I still speed a bit and do whatever I can get away with. I wouldn't personally sign into a HOA, but what about the folks that got stuck in one with no say? I have major issues being told what to do by people that were born to this world the same as I. None of us asked to be here. 
    We've been conditioned to believe that obedience is virtuous and voting is freedom- 
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,324 Senior Member
    Everyones porch light on at 7PM...
    That's complete horse pukey - if there's one thing I can't stand about city living or the "city slicker mentality", its all the damn LIGHTS!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,417 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    Everyones porch light on at 7PM...
    That's complete horse pukey - if there's one thing I can't stand about city living or the "city slicker mentality", its all the damn LIGHTS!
    Taken completely out of context. You channeling CNN or Fox?

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,324 Senior Member
    Nothing about context - I read that it was an HOA requirement to turn your porch lite on...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,417 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    Nothing about context.


    Reading......it's fundamental. Understanding usually follows. Maybe not.....

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
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