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Christian worshippers arrested in Moscow, Idaho.

DrawbarFlatsDrawbarFlats Posts: 788 Senior Member
edited September 2020 in Second Amendment/Politics #1
Kiss your constitutional rights goodbye - the brown shirts have arrived.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV0J9doDu1o
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Replies

  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,980 Senior Member
    Ah yes, the "Mutaween" - aka the religious police enforcing the Liberal mask religion.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • JustsomedudeJustsomedude Posts: 607 Senior Member
    edited September 2020 #3
    All them folks could have easily stopped them cops. 
  • DrawbarFlatsDrawbarFlats Posts: 788 Senior Member
    edited September 2020 #4
    All them folks could have easily stopped them cops. 

    Indeed but the question is - will we ever exercise our arrest powers as citizens? When I first watched this I literally got physically ill. To see these cops follow an unlawful and blatant un-constitutional order made me sick to my stomach. This footage perfectly parallels the tactics of the Sturmabteilung of the 20s and 30s in Nazi Germany. It is further proof that the majority of police will always protect and put first the bidding of their puppet master politicians rather than uphold the Constitution and protect the law abiding citizen. To see the communist insurrectionists of BLM and Antifa get a free pass for murder, looting, rioting, arson, and vandalism, ... and then - see law abiding citizens get cuffed and jailed for simply exercising their 1st Amendment rights is both chilling and terrifying. How much more of this s**t are we going to take? This vid CLEARLY illustrates what is going to happen when the Second Amendment is repealed (for those who think it will never happen are ****ing delusional and are living in a fantasy world). Sadly, the majority of so-called 'conservative' people are spineless cowards and have been conditioned to cower and worship authority no matter how tyrannical government becomes and certainly do not want to be inconvenienced by standing up for what's right. We've thrown away our books and civic duties for smartphones and the latest overpaid sports and celebrity figure. We're more concerned with BBQs and partying rather than attending City and Town Hall meetings and voicing our concerns and grievances with our elected servants. Even more chilling is what will happen when the military is eventually ordered to take up arms against law abiding citizens. The post events of Hurricane Katrina prove beyond any shadow of doubt that they too will follow their orders without question. This Covid crap is an open experiment in tyranny to see just how much people are willing to put up with and how they will comply and do what they're ordered to do by authority. So far, we're bending over and taking it right up the ass. 
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,156 Senior Member
    The argument about Covid-19 being real is just dumb. Ask those who have died from it.
    Does wearing a face covering make a difference?  I do not know, but I choose to err on the side of lessening the chance of getting Covid-19 and being extremely sick or dying.
    I will support yours and anyone elses right to wear one or not, but will not support you or anyone else exposing me to it.  Do not believe in the law? Vote the person who made it out of office and change it.  This is no different than no parking, speeding, loitering charges.  Personally, if a group of people want to get together and spread covid between them go ahead.  But, there are local laws in place that officers must enforce. They do not get to choose which laws they enforce.  We can go on and on, but officers performing their duties are not jack booted thugs.  
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,454 Senior Member
    The name of the town is appropriate for that kind of behavior from 'the authorities'.
    And in case you are too tired to keep up, the Covid virus has mutated and the masks and hand sanitizer are no longer as effective as they were in the beginning.
    https://abcnews.go.com/Health/covid-19-mutating/story?id=70535183

    https://www.foxnews.com/science/humans-mutating-covid-19-virus-fighting-back

    https://bgr.com/2020/08/25/coronavirus-mutation-382-orf8-strain-singapore-study/

    And most cops I know of swear an oath that includes adherence to state and country constitutions. The U.S. Constitution has that bit in it about freedom of religion, and I'd bet the Idaho Constitution has something to say about freedom of religion, too. That said, ANY LE agent that violates the freedom of religion clause in either one is following an illegal order. Willingly following illegal orders didn't work out too well as a defense during the Nuremberg trials.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • DrawbarFlatsDrawbarFlats Posts: 788 Senior Member
    edited September 2020 #7
    Diver43 said:
    The argument about Covid-19 being real is just dumb. Ask those who have died from it.

    Never implied that Covid isn't real.
    2,500,000 people die every year in the U.S. Do we wear masks until death itself is stopped? Do we ban people from swimming until drownings stop? Do we ban food until food poisoning is stopped? Do we ban all motor vehicles until traffic accidents/fatalities cease?

    Does wearing a face covering make a difference?  I do not know, but I choose to err on the side of lessening the chance of getting Covid-19 and being extremely sick or dying.

    Does this include the common flu, bacterial infections or all other infectious diseases?

    I will support yours and anyone elses right to wear one or not, but will not support you or anyone else exposing me to it. 

    See 2nd bullet point.

    Do not believe in the law? Vote the person who made it out of office and change it. 

    Lame argument. Comparing constitutional law to un-constitutional laws and tyranny is laughable. 

     This is no different than no parking, speeding, loitering charges.

    Arresting someone for exercising their constitutional rights and then saying it is no different than a parking or speeding ticket is absurd.  

    Personally, if a group of people want to get together and spread covid between them go ahead.  But, there are local laws in place that officers must enforce. They do not get to choose which laws they enforce. 

    Bull****! Cops DO have a choice on whether or not to enforce an unlawful or un-constitutional order. It's called integrity and character. It's not that difficult to realize or understand when unlawful orders are being dictated. Will you have the same argument when the police invade private homes to confiscate firearms when the 2nd is repealed or a class of firearms, such as all semi automatics, are banned? It's definitely coming. Would you enforce such laws? 

    We can go on and on, but officers performing their duties are not jack booted thugs.

    There are a lot of outstanding cops out there. I've seen and dealt with many good cops. 
    An honest constitutional law abiding cop or deputy is a hero and worthy of the highest honor and trust. We've seen countless examples of LEO's who have publicly stated that they will not comply with un-constitutional laws or orders. Remember in 2012/13 the cops who stated that they would not comply with the assault weapons ban on both state and county levels? However, Cops who do arrest and jail law abiding citizens who are exercising their constitutional rights ARE jack-booted thugs. A cops duty is to uphold constitutional law and protect the law abiding citizen. The "following orders" argument is absurd. I guess the SS who killed 6,000,000 Jews were just "following orders." Btw, did our Founders "follow orders" from the Crown? No, they didn't. They told ol' Georgy Boy to take his "orders" and stick it where the sun don't shine - we even got a brand new nation as a result! Again, a cops "duty' is to uphold constitutional law and to protect law abiding citizens from criminals, NOT the whims of a corrupt tyrannical politician who abuses his/her power and declares that law abiding citizens are the enemy.

    In closing, if one is worried about contracting Covid, it's pretty simple: avoid those people/gatherings. Meanwhile I choose not to wear one. If I do get sick or show symptoms then I stay home and consult with my physician. 

      

  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,980 Senior Member
    I'm completely with Drawbar on this one - and I'm tired of the mask enforcing "Mutaween" in many/most of the stores enforcing nonsense that has been elevated to a religious level (Mutaween are the Saudi religious police that enforce wearing veils among other things, now we have them here). That video made me sick to my stomach as well, and I'm not even Christian!
    The fact is, EVERYBODY ON THE PLANET is going to be exposed to this virus sooner or later. When they are, what will happen will happen. These fools think they can control it - they cannot. Somebody famous once said "Give me liberty, or give me death." I'd rather be dead than to live under such conditions. I'm sick and tired of this hysteria - more cradle to grave nanny statism as far as I'm concerned.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,870 Senior Member
    edited September 2020 #9
    As a retired cop, I feel compelled to respond.  For those who think the cops should have refused to obey an order from the mayor and not arrested the worshippers, you're wrong.  Presumably, the mayor and city lawyers didn't make the arrest order on a whim.  They studied the aspects and reached a decision which I personally think is wrong, but there it is.

    Now for cops...say you've got 12 years of experience being a cop.  You refuse to bust worshippers based on your interpretation of the Constitution.  What if your interpretation is wrong and the courts rule that in the name of public health safety, it's illegal to meet in large groups without a mask.   You are fired, lose your job and are out on the street and your family suffers. All this talk about "integrity" is crap.  Cops don't interpret the Constitution, high courts do and cops follow their rulings.  The only citizens who THINK they can interpret the Constitution are Sovereign Citizens, and we all see how that goes.  Same general idea with enforcing drug laws...as an individual cop, you're still required to arrest violators even though you may believe all drugs should be legal.  

    The issue will be settled in court, not on the street.  The fault lies not on cops but on whoever issued the stupid order to make the arrests.  If it's a bad law, and I think it is, then the matter will come back to bite the Mayor or whoever else is in the chain of command. 
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,980 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    We have had many LE agencies in Michigan state, flat out, they will not enforce our Governors "mask mandate" on the grounds that a mandate is not law...
    WORD
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,305 Senior Member
    Gene L said:


    Now for cops...say you've got 12 years of experience being a cop.  You refuse to bust worshippers based on your interpretation of the Constitution.  What if your interpretation is wrong and the courts rule that in the name of public health safety, it's illegal to meet in large groups without a mask.   You are fired, lose your job and are out on the street and your family suffers. All this talk about "integrity" is crap.  Cops don't interpret the Constitution, high courts do and cops follow their rulings.  The only citizens who THINK they can interpret the Constitution are Sovereign Citizens, and we all see how that goes.  Same general idea with enforcing drug laws...as an individual cop, you're still required to arrest violators even though you may believe all drugs should be legal.  

    If my boss asks me to do something illegal or unethical, and I say no- I could lose my job.  It still doesn’t make it right.

    ”just following orders” has always been a losing excuse.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,870 Senior Member
    edited September 2020 #13
    Those who say it's illegal or unethical clearly are not qualified to determine what's illegal and unethical beyond their personal code. And those who dismiss the possibility of losing a career and say they would follow a strict personal code and lose their job are dealing in hypotheticals and generally are not in a position of actually losing their job in whatever they're doing now.    "Just following orders" reflects on those giving the orders rather than those following the orders. It is the mayor who is accountable rather than each individual of the PD.

     The Nazi trials (funny how the left and now apparently the right are fond of throwing out Hitler and Jackbooted Thugs references) dealt ONLY with those giving orders and those in a position to challenge orders which were clearly inhumane.  Cops aren't inhumane "henchmen" and generally on our side. No one here that I've seen has posted that cops who don't arrest Antifa and BLM rioters should quit their job.  Being a cop doesn't revolve around one issue, but many. 

     And in MI, those cops NOT enforcing mask rules are I assume backed up by their supervisors.  None fear losing their jobs.  

    The very last thing you want in the world is where cops make the rules.  That's a Police State, and while left flake snowflakes try to say this is the state in Wisconsin and Oregon, it's not.  Those cops are victims of weak leadership.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • DrawbarFlatsDrawbarFlats Posts: 788 Senior Member
    edited September 2020 #14
    Gene L said:
    As a retired cop, I feel compelled to respond.  For those who think the cops should have refused to obey an order from the mayor and not arrested the worshippers, you're wrong.  Presumably, the mayor and city lawyers didn't make the arrest order on a whim.  They studied the aspects and reached a decision which I personally think is wrong, but there it is.

    Now for cops...say you've got 12 years of experience being a cop.  You refuse to bust worshippers based on your interpretation of the Constitution.  What if your interpretation is wrong and the courts rule that in the name of public health safety, it's illegal to meet in large groups without a mask.   You are fired, lose your job and are out on the street and your family suffers. All this talk about "integrity" is crap.  Cops don't interpret the Constitution, high courts do and cops follow their rulings.  The only citizens who THINK they can interpret the Constitution are Sovereign Citizens, and we all see how that goes.  Same general idea with enforcing drug laws...as an individual cop, you're still required to arrest violators even though you may believe all drugs should be legal.  

    The issue will be settled in court, not on the street.  The fault lies not on cops but on whoever issued the stupid order to make the arrests.  If it's a bad law, and I think it is, then the matter will come back to bite the Mayor or whoever else is in the chain of command. 

             1st Amendment: ...

              ...Congress shall make no law respecting an                            establishment of religion, or prohibiting free  exercise              thereof...

             10th Amendment: 

    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


    Idaho Constitution, Article 21, Section 19:

    It is ordained by the state of Idaho that perfect toleration of religious sentiment shall be secured, and no inhabitant of said state shall ever be molested in person or property on account of his or her mode of religious worship ... That this ordinance shall be irrevocable, without the consent of the United States and the people of the state of Idaho.

     




    Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Btw, the Constitution IS law. There's nothing to interpret.

  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,156 Senior Member
    Those who do not wish to wear a mask, I support your right to not do so.  However I demand you stay six feet away from me and mine and wear one around me.  If you do not want to, stay on your property or with those that wish not to on private property.  If you find yourself arrested, do not call me for bail, because you chose to not file a rule.
    We often say you have free choice, some choices have consequences, weather we think they are right or wrong
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,100 Senior Member
    Yes Gene...the decision not to enforce the mandate came from Sheriffs and Chiefs of Police in the Counties and Cities that recognized that the mandate did not have the force of law...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 8,121 Senior Member
    Diver43 said:
    Those who do not wish to wear a mask, I support your right to not do so.  However I demand you stay six feet away from me and mine and wear one around me.  If you do not want to, stay on your property or with those that wish not to on private property.  If you find yourself arrested, do not call me for bail, because you chose to not file a rule.
    We often say you have free choice, some choices have consequences, weather we think they are right or wrong
    In that case, I demand that YOU stay six feet away from me.  Why is the burden on me?
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,870 Senior Member
    Drawbar, the Constitution has been interpreted since it was signed.  In fact, the Supreme Court was established for that very purpose.

    I'm sorry and perhaps callous but I have very little sympathy for those who got busted.  They were using their religion to make a political point and I have little use for that.  Westboro Baptist Church included.




    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,156 Senior Member
    Diver43 said:
    Those who do not wish to wear a mask, I support your right to not do so.  However I demand you stay six feet away from me and mine and wear one around me.  If you do not want to, stay on your property or with those that wish not to on private property.  If you find yourself arrested, do not call me for bail, because you chose to not file a rule.
    We often say you have free choice, some choices have consequences, weather we think they are right or wrong
    In that case, I demand that YOU stay six feet away from me.  Why is the burden on me?
    That answer is simple.  Local regulations say wear one in public.  
    Dont want to? You dont have to. Stay on your own property and I wont come on it without one.
    I hate regulations as much as anyone, but sometimes it's just the right thing to do.  Once covid is over I will be the first to welcome everyone to give bro hugs and all.  I personally know three people to die from this **** and only one was over 65 and had other health issues. The other two younger and in better shape than i
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,980 Senior Member
    The six foot rule makes sense, this mask pseudo-religion is "shullbit" that accomplishes exactly NOTHING. And WHAT "local regulation"? Some politician spouting their usual noise? I'm not aware of any LAWS passed that require me to do the square root of "eff all" with regard to a mask. Now, the private "Mutaween" at Wal*Mart and elsewhere insist that I wear one in their store - which is their right, even though the store employees agree that its ineffectual PCBS.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,870 Senior Member
    edited September 2020 #21
    I don't know the efficacy of masks, but I wear one when I go grocery shopping.  Store (Publix) demands it but it isn't really enforced.  I went there today, and almost all were wearing masks.  Three weren't, and being the person I am, I noticed it.  Mea culpa. That's basically the only place I go except for the drug store where folks wear masks.  Vegetables store, no one is wearing one, including me.  Gunstore?  Nope.  Waffle House?  Just the help, and not all of them.  So I try to get along and where folks and requests, I wear a mask.  I see no advantage to not wearing a mask and assume like the TP shortage mask wearing will go away. 

    Does it limit transmission?  Who knows. I can see how it could in narrow circumstances. 

     My friend's son got the Covid, he's 21 or 22 and experienced flu-like symptoms and was quarantined for 10 days of no work. Several people where my friend works tested positive but so far as I know, no one died or even was hospitalized. My friend's girl-friend did not get it, strangely enough.  I think it's a problem, but believe in herd immunity and most people will be exposed to it and recover after a few days.

    I'm in a high risk category...cardiac problems, diabetic, 75 years old, and having no desire to catch it and seeing the odds of beating it, I'll do what ever to reduce my chances of catching it.  I feel like it's easier to avoid than to recover, so I'll wear a mask and stay six feet away from strangers.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • JustsomedudeJustsomedude Posts: 607 Senior Member
    edited September 2020 #22
    I've seen Leo's call those that know and quote the law "sovereign citizens" before. They don't like when a person plays by the rules and it doesn't work in their favor. I remember being hassled during a traffic stop as a passenger when I was a young adult and the cop demanded ID. He was pissed when I quoted the law to him and I got the good Ole, "Oh so you must be a lawyer", snide remark. I came back with the fact that if I break the law unknowingly, a judge will be quick to point out that ignorance of the law is no excuse  but when i do my due diligence and brush up on the laws, im told im a sovereign citizen and have to listen to disrespectful rhetoric. This is where the disconnect begins. As for the mask, why would i follow a mandate that i honestly and truly believe is complete BS? I've yet to change my life and how I live it because the folks on TV told me I should. When the Good Lord wants me, he'll take me, regardless of your cloth bandana mask.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,870 Senior Member
    edited September 2020 #23
    I have never seen a Sovereign Citizen where it worked in his favor.  I've never seen (they almost always video their experiences) where one knows the law.  There is a website that plays these encounters.  The last one I saw was a guy who stopped going into California by the Ag Police (or whoever) and was asked if he had any vegetables or fruit to declare.  He refused to answer "No, I don't," (he didn't) and proceeded to quote the Constitution through a closed driver's window.  He then drove off where he was stopped a short time later by the patrol.  He still refused to do anything but quote what he thought exempted him.  After a while, the cop broke his window and hauled his ass off to jail.

    It was stupid thing to do.  Cost him a window and bail money.  All he had to do is say "No, I don't have any fruit/vegetables."  I laughed so hard I almost busted a gut.

    Another guy without a tag on his vehicle refused to show license for driving a car insisting he wasn't driving but was traveling.  I can't remember if he went to jail, but it wouldn't surprise me.  I'm pretty sure his car got towed.  The cop responding had heard this before apparently.  It didn't work then and I doubt if it ever works.

    Neither of these SCs were playing by the rules and didn't know the law, they just rote replied some **** statements they got from somewhere.

    I almost passed out from laughing.  Cops spend about six or eight weeks maybe more learning laws, Sovereign Citizens get their info from other SCs.  
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • JustsomedudeJustsomedude Posts: 607 Senior Member
    I'm not talking about sovereign citizens. Im talking about people that know the law so well that they use it to their advantage at the disadvantage of the police. Then they're labeled as SC's. Theres a many of folks that got rich because a Leo violated their rights.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,870 Senior Member
    They're not labeled as SCs unless they declare themselves so.  In either of the two examples I stated, how would they get rich suing a LEO?  Rights are one thing and must be treasured, but driving (traveling) w/o a tag, insurance, or license is not one of them.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • JustsomedudeJustsomedude Posts: 607 Senior Member
    edited September 2020 #26
    Many folks not calling themselves SC's are labeled as such for doing nothing other than sticking up for their rights. Ive read of many people being hassled and arrested for filming government buildings, police stations, courthouses, etc... all legal activity and being arrested or harrassed because they refused to take part in the responding officers "investigation," into their lawful activity. 
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,870 Senior Member
    edited September 2020 #27
    Why does any sane, responsible person want to film a post office?  To get attention is what I'd guess.  Or be a nuisance. Oh my God, are you siding with these asswipes?
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • JustsomedudeJustsomedude Posts: 607 Senior Member
    Siding with freedoms, sure. The Supreme Court ruled that the citizens have a right to document what public officials do on public property while in the course of their duties, and they can do so without being unimpeded. Cops bait the citizens, so i don't see the issue with doing the same to our public servants.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,454 Senior Member
    .
    O.K. Here's the thing. My lung capacity is  compromised. After about 15 minutes of wearing a mask I have to take the damned thing off to lower my pulse rate and blood pressure due to lack of oxygen. So I expect others to stay the hell away from me until I can catch my breath and lower pulse rate and BP. Get in my face about it and there will be problems. People with asthma have the same problems, as do people with COPD. Gonna make us all stay in our houses and not be able to go to the grocery store for food? I don't think so. I wear the damned thing until I can't, and then it comes off until I can get some oxygen and then put it back on.
     
    For those in great health, congratulations. Enjoy it. But pull your head out of wherever it's stuck and realize that some people have serious trouble with masks and rebreathing their own CO2 and leave them the hell alone. This self righteous BS about wearing masks is getting old fast.

    And if any of all y'all that demand masks for all are gonna demand arresting anyone not able to wear one full time when out and about should be falling all over each  other to take their grocery lists and other shopping lists and go get it for them. Otherwise, you're just showing your true character, or lack thereof.

      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 8,121 Senior Member
    Personally, I think that wearing one of those damned masks for an extended period of time is unhealthy for one.  You end up breathing in the same air you just expelled, and God only knows what bacteria and other pathogens are trapped in those things.  Like Mike, I also have some difficulty breathing when wearing one.

    If I'm outside, or driving, I'm not going to wear a mask unless in in close proximity to others.
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,980 Senior Member
    edited September 2020 #31
    I wore a face veil for the very first time yesterday. Easy to breathe, very little CO2 recirculation, looks cool as I got one with decorations, and I got lots of compliments on it. I got it mainly as a "statement" about this stupidity, but it does fulfill the role and is a lot more comfortable! Plus I can wear it to dance performances if we every have any, that is. Will probably wear it for a "virtual" performance in December.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
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