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.38 Special - Terminal Performance.

ZeeZee Senior MemberPosts: 27,580 Senior Member
Rossi .38 Spl
148gr Matt’s Bullet RFHP @ 1,000 fps
7yrds
130 pound sow

Broadside
Impact (Red Arrow)

Bullet passed through and hit dirt. (Red Circle)

She circled the pen and sat down after 9 seconds.

Flipped over and rolled through rhe mud hole. 😒



Got out of the mud hole and fell over. 

Laid there a few seconds then flipped over on her back in the mud hole again. 
 

Kind of a last......🖕🏻

From shot to sitting was 8 seconds. 
Shot to on her back was 44 seconds. 
She laid there atonal breathing for about another minute. 


"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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Replies

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,580 Senior Member
    Entrance


    Passed through left lung and top of the heart. 

    Exited front right lung. 


    Broke a rib on entrance and exit. 

    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 12,198 Senior Member
    That's a lot more damage than I thought. Especially for as long as she lasted.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,149 Senior Member
    That's really interesting....thanks for doing that....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,763 Senior Member
    Well.....that confirmed a suspicion of mine........

    If I have to shoot a bad  something with a .38 Spl I'm gonna shoot it a lot more than once as fast as I can.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,410 Senior Member
    Seems well in keeping with my observations & pet theory - a solid cardio hit without damage to spine or supporting legs seems to take about ten second to put a critter of that size on the ground, and it doesn't seem to much matter if it's duty handgun, magnum handgun, or a .30-06 and it's close relations.

    The lesson from this for defensive shooting is clear - one hole is not a big enough drain for comfort; make several.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,580 Senior Member
    Well.....that confirmed a suspicion of mine........

    If I have to shoot a bad  something with a .38 Spl I'm gonna shoot it a lot more than once as fast as I can.

    Mike
    I shoot the pigs once for test comparison purposes. As I’m sure all are aware. 
    And I’m a firm believer in shooting until the threat goes away. Just seems the .38 Spl never gives me the results I’m looking for. 
    Given, there are always variables. But, I just haven’t found the right Bullet. I guess. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,763 Senior Member
    Please don't misunderstand....I'd do the same with .357 Mag or .416 Rigby.

    Maybe, though improbable, with a .270 Win. :)

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,763 Senior Member
    edited October 2020 #9
    And, like you, I've always found the .38 Spl a bit underwhelming. Your post kind of drove that point home. Hence....if it's what you've got...shoot a lot..

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Did you recover the slug?
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,580 Senior Member
    No. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 12,089 Senior Member
    Well.....that confirmed a suspicion of mine........

    If I have to shoot a bad  something with a .38 Spl I'm gonna shoot it a lot more than once as fast as I can.

    Mike
    Kind of my thoughts on the .38 as well.

    interesting results, Zee.  Thanks
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    As always great video!  Thanks for sharing.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,580 Senior Member
    I’m gonna add the original thread involving the load data and work up. 


    Helps me to keep all the data co-locates. 

    Interesting that it stopped in two jugs and zipped through this pig which was probably about 2 jugs thick. 
    Expansion on water was good. While I suspect it expanded on the pig, I doubt it was as good as I. Water. They rarely are. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,410 Senior Member
    And, like you, I've always found the .38 Spl a bit underwhelming. Your post kind of drove that point home. Hence....if it's what you've got...shoot a lot..

    Mike
    I dunno. . .  This seems a pretty good indication of what a clean hole through the heart muscle does.  Full penetration; too slow for hydrostatics.  I think we'd be in error to throw negatives specifically at the .38 Special in this instance, as there are A LOT of cartridge/bullet combos that would deliver EXACTLY that effect.

    The heart stopped beating effectively in this case, but unlike a hit in the aorta a little higher up, it isn't necessarily going to depressurize the pipes to the brain as fast.  That's probably why that sow kept kicking so long - Zee disrupted blood DELIVERY, but not availability; the pig's brain was probably still making the most of the oxygen that was still there and maybe even haphazardly pumping a little.

    Best explanation - probably - is that this was not a fast bleed out.  Maybe not even really a bleed out at all.  For a hunting kill, I'd be totally happy with that effect.  In a defensive shoot, it would definitely be a case of delivering a couple more.

    But I've been seeing this ten-ish second span from quality cardio hits to inability to stand quite a bit, and I've seen it with a pretty wide range of destructive capabilities from rifles that DO deliver hydrostatic displacement on down.  Probably some of the current 9mm appeal can be found there:  there isn't much difference in the effect of a slightly bigger wound track, but the ability to quickly deliver a couple more and with better accuracy might increase your odds of having the fight stop, rather than continue on until the brain figures out it has a problem.

    At any rate, it's all proof that we should keep the brain and pelvic shot options in mind as follow ups.  Ten seconds can be a LONG time.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 8,007 Senior Member
    better expansion than the 165gr Partitions I shot my pig with
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,746 Senior Member
    Is that a broken rib on the entrance side?

    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,580 Senior Member
    Spk said:
    Is that a broken rib on the entrance side?

    Broke one on entrance and exit. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,746 Senior Member
    edited October 2020 #19
    I suspect the first rib impact deformed the bullet sufficiently to the extent that from that point on it behaved like a ball round.
    Water and gelatin are no substitute for living animal. Water and gelatin are uniform/homogeneous and predictable/repeatable. Those qualities are great for comparing one type of bullet to another but, as you know, living things have complexities. Lung tissue doesn't offer up much resistance. Bone on the other hand can cause funny things to happen.
    Since gelatin was developed to mimic muscle tissue, I'm guessing a rump shot would've resulted in better (more predictable) bullet performance. Of course, shooting a pig in the butt with a 38 Special would also be pretty predictable. 🤣

    Good and important test. 👍
    Next time attempt to verify the feasibility and effectiveness of a double tap on a moving target. The first shot will be the important one, let's see what happens with the second shot. 🤔
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,410 Senior Member
    Spk said:

    Next time attempt to verify the feasibility and effectiveness of a double tap on a moving target. The first shot will be the important one, let's see what happens with the second shot. 🤔
    I LIKE IT!

    but. . .

    How to do as actual science?  I think I've got the beginnings of an answer.  Like I've said, I've been latching onto this notion of it consistently taking about 8-10 seconds for a single cardio hit to get a critter on the ground.  I think if we can get that time down significantly, we might be able to start pulling meaningful things from the results.

    The challenge is that Zee's piggies tend to thrash a lot when they take that first hit (SOOOO inconsiderate of them), so placement on the second may be a bit of a problem.

    Maybe two shooters side by side to simulate one gun, firing the same ammo simultaneously at pre-agreed locations?
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,580 Senior Member
    I think a synchronized shot would be unrealistic from a defensive pistol perspective. Outside of LE, it’s not likely to happen. 
    I do quite a few synchronized shots with rifles and have never had a target walk away from impact. Which, is the point. 
    I think a controlled pair with a pistol would be more defensively realistic. Besides, about the only thing one can count on in a gunfight is that......once the bullets start flying......nobody stands still. 
    Whether I get around to trying this with a pig will remain to be seen. I still have a .45 ACP Load I need to test first. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 12,198 Senior Member
    I for one am looking forward to that .45ACP test.  I know a guy that regularly rolls hogs with his 1911 shooting flying ashtrays 
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,580 Senior Member
    Diver43 said:
    I for one am looking forward to that .45ACP test.  I know a guy that regularly rolls hogs with his 1911 shooting flying ashtrays 
    I was planning to shoot this one with a .45 ACP. But, when I got there and saw it was only 130 PPU ds, I decided for the .38 Spl. Instead. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,746 Senior Member
    What's that 45 load again? I believe it was a 185, I think but I don't remember the rest.



    Here's what's possible if you're feeling frisky.

    45 Super Ammo - 185 gr. J.H.P. @ 1,300fps/M.E.694 ft lbs (5" Gold Cup 1330 fps)

    I don't buy the ammo online, I just buy the brass. It should work on piggies, at least that's my guess.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,580 Senior Member
    185gr GD @1,125 fps
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    185gr GD @1,125 fps
    Perfect!  I’ve been waiting for this one.
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,746 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    Zee said:
    185gr GD @1,125 fps
    Perfect!  I’ve been waiting for this one.

    Right up there with a good Buffalo Bore +P load. Waiting for this test also. Those GoldDots should work just fine. 👍
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,591 Senior Member
    This is particularly interesting to me, because I keep a .357 mag revolver loaded with Hornady Critical defense .38spl loads (110gr FTX) handy for the other members of the household who don't train as regularly as I would like them to.  It has much less recoil than my .45s and even the 9mms, so I thought it would be a good idea to leave that as an option for them.  I worry about effectiveness, but I figure 1) There's plenty of rounds available, and you keep shooting until the threat is neutralized, and 2) It's still more effective than harsh language.  
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • TugarTugar Senior Member Posts: 2,435 Senior Member
    Me too @bobbyrlf3 have the N frame loaded with 125grain +p since my wife is recoil sensitive. Nearby is an ammo wallet. That has all 357 since if you have to reload....you need all the help you can get. 
    Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
    Winston Churchill
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,410 Senior Member
    INSPIRATION!!!  (Maybe)

    The Ballistics by the Inch website indicates that 9mm's - depending on the load - can increase up to about 400 fps going from a 2" to an 18" barrel.

    A .357 Magnum can almost double in speed with that much barrel change.

    Both .35 caliber.  Both available in repeating carbines.  This would get you the better accuracy you want in the pig pen for good science - maybe even to the point of trying out the double-tap concept.  With the ability to load up or down, you could simulate anything from a .380 up to a downrange impact from a .35 Remington on Whelan.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,580 Senior Member
    You trying to spend my money?!?  😁
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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