Do I take “Old Man” as a cull or let him live another year?

Zee

These are pics from this past week showing the condition he is in. I can lean either way -Yes/No. 
So, I look to you guys for further input of his progress, condition, and demise. What are your thoughts after viewing the pics?

GunNut

He must have been something to see in his prime.  And he looks like he’s not afraid to kick some ass still.   The cuts and broken horns say he’s a scrapper.  I don’t know that I’d take him out after he’s survived so many mating and hunting seasons.

Linefinder

I'd take him out. Not going to be much of him left next season.

Mike

Zee

GunNut said:

He must have been something to see in his prime.  And he looks like he’s not afraid to kick some ass still.   The cuts and broken horns say he’s a scrapper.  I don’t know that I’d take him out after he’s survived so many mating and hunting seasons.

While from my heart, I agree with you that a Bad Ass deserves his golden years. From a management standpoint, I have to keep the population down and healthy. I have more deer numbers I MUST TAKE!  So, it’s literally deciding who lives and who dies to maintain a healthy and thriving herd. It ain’t easy. Especially when you get attached to certain deer. But, deciding which old and battered deer or which young and upcoming deer to take so that there is balance and health.........nerve racking!!

Zee

I will say that whatever that growth is on his right flank DOES seem to have gone down a little over this week. 

From a management standpoint I have to ask myself these questions:

-Are his genes worth keeping?
-Will he likely breed to spread those genes?
-Will he survive the winter to be productive next breeding season?
-Is he a benefit or detraction to the overall herd?

GunNut

Well his genes are what he used to be, not what he is today and I’d say he’s proven they are good ones.  Whether he gets to breed next year is a different factor.  

The growth is going down so it might just be a hematoma from his last fight which looks like it was a good one!  I think he’s still has some fire in his belly but only you know the whole herd and his place, or lack off, in it.

GunNut

Sorry I’m not being much help.  I don’t envy you having to make this decision but I know you’ll make the right one.

Ernie Bishop

Probably time...

Zee

While that helps. It doesn’t help. 😁

I hate this decision. 

Zee

Letting my boy take “Wide Load” was an easy choice. He was emaciated physically and I watched how he interacted with the other bucks. Basically avoided them so as not to get into a confrontation. He was skinny, frail, and not looking to fight. His horns had degraded over the past two years, but unbroken.......would be a nice trophy for my boy. 

Turns out, he was 9.5-10.5 years old and it was a good choice. 

Old Man obviously has some ass kicking left in him. But, I fear this is his last hoorah. 

GunNut

I couldn’t do it.  I think he’s still ready for a fight.  Actually it looks like he’s put on a few pounds since the last pics.  I’d let him have another go at it.  But again, you know his place in the food chain better than I.  I don’t think either choice would be bad, just REALLY tough to make...

Jayhawker

My only concern is that lump...if it's full of pus it could lead to a systemic infection that will kill him slow and hard...On the other hand, he's eating, which is a good thing...How is his gait? Is he limping?

When I was working at the refuge we usually had to put down a couple of bulls that got the short end of fights during the rut....the decision usually hinged on whether they showed improvement over a couple of weeks

CHIRO1989

If he is eating, pooping/peeing, and humping, I say leave him be for a bit. 

Zee

Jayhawker said:

My only concern is that lump...if it's full of pus it could lead to a systemic infection that will kill him slow and hard...On the other hand, he's eating, which is a good thing...How is his gait? Is he limping?

When I was working at the refuge we usually had to put down a couple of bulls that got the short end of fights during the rut....the decision usually hinged on whether they showed improvement over a couple of weeks

I haven’t watched him but from 600+ yards. Just observed the pictures. Should probably get in a stand and see how he gets around. 

Zee

CHIRO1989 said:

If he is eating, pooping/peeing, and humping, I say leave him be for a bit. 

Ok, that was funny. 

Bigslug

He doesn't really look like he's got another rut left in him - head down, loss of muscle, etc...- so I think his DNA is as out there as it's ever going to get.  I don't know how much knowledge and experience an aging herbivore passes on to a herd at that point.  He may be nothing more than a drain on the food and habitat supply by now.

If you have to thin the numbers regardless, I'd probably look at it this way:

You're a mountain lion.  In looking at the herd, you have to weigh the risk-vs.-reward decision of needing to take down something to eat against how likely you are to get injured doing the deed mano-a-mano with your teeth and claws.  Would you rather pick the fight with Old Man, or someone else?  Also consider not only the fight but the chase leading up to it.  A yearling might be weaker and less pointy, but may have better reflexes and speed.

My family has raised many housecats to their late teens, and to me, Old Man appears to be in the middle of that thinning/wasting process that may indicate cancers, organ failures, or maybe just loss of testosterone.  Love keeps the pets around with special food, meds, and heating blankets, but a deer's life won't get easier.

Judge his current place in the scheme, but probably better you than the coyotes.

Ernie Bishop

It is a sucky decision, but there is a reason of why you started this thread....That being said, many animals never have the luxury of not suffering until they die-Nature is brutal.

What you are considering, is not brutal.

If you let him hang a round, he may do better than most of us expect.

Truth is, we really do not and cannot know, hence your mixed feelings.

Zee

Here is what my hunting buddy has to say. He mirrors some opinions here. 

“Dang. Tough decision. He’s new genetics but without knowing what he looked like in his prime and only imagining hard to tell. Still has some decent brows for his age sometime those are the first to suffer from aging and I imagine had decent width. As far as breeding not sure how true it is but I’ve always heard if they’re fighting they f$&@ing and he looks like a fighter.ha I see what you mean though he’s showing his age. Can see it in his face, belly, and hips. Looking at those hips I wonder how he looks walking? That would be the deciding factor for me I think.”

Ernie Bishop

You might give Matt a call.  Right up his wheelhouse.

CHIRO1989

Zee said:

CHIRO1989 said:

If he is eating, pooping/peeing, and humping, I say leave him be for a bit. 

Ok, that was funny. 

I left out fighting, I would think with that and the other stuff I listed, if the other deer are still not interfering with those activities, he should be OK. Since you keep the predators down, you are the predator if his mobility is bad, he might be alive simply because the cats and the coyotes are not there to do the deed.

Bigslug

Zee said:

I haven’t watched him but from 600+ yards. Just observed the pictures. Should probably get in a stand and see how he gets around. 

I think that is what you need to do.  I looked at the photos again and it really reinforced my reaction of "It's time to put him down", but how he moves will tell you more.

No ballistic experiments on that old soldier - just a clean thump with the most accurate & deadly proven hammer you have.  I'm of mixed feelings on this being a good one for your boy - anybody else's kid, I'd say no, but I'm sure he's at the point that he gets it.  That said, I'm getting the vibe between the lines this one needs to be yours.  

Zee

I agree. If he goes, I’m going to take him. Unless natural causes get him first. We are having some winter weather tonight. Already found a yearling frozen and dying this evening. If the weather don’t get him tonight, I’ll assess him visually this weekend if I can. 

But, if I take him, I think it’ll be from a ground blind with my second oldest rifle. The British Enfield No4 Mk1 in .303 British. 

I think that would be a fitting tribute for the Old Man. 

ojr

Just before Christmas I lay and watched a mob of 5 Fallow , they were only 300m away and they were all in good condition, it came down to 
A- it was going to be a difficult carry back up the hill
B- My freezer was/is still 3 part full, so I didn't need to.

This is what I think you have to decide, ... Need
 Is he going to ably survive another year ?, well, you know the feed situation, the predator situation, the actual condition of the animal etc.

So if there is a need to take him, do it, do it quickly and without remorse for you know it is a good thing that you do for his well being and eventually the well being of the herd.

If there isn't a need and he's a fighter, let him be.

 

sakodude

Zee said:

I agree. If he goes, I’m going to take him. Unless natural causes get him first. We are having some winter weather tonight. Already found a yearling frozen and dying this evening. If the weather don’t get him tonight, I’ll assess him visually this weekend if I can. 

But, if I take him, I think it’ll be from a ground blind with my second oldest rifle. The British Enfield No4 Mk1 in .303 British. 

I think that would be a fitting tribute for the Old Man. 

I like this plan.

ojr

Sorry Zee you posted when I was writing, didn't see it till now. wouldn't have done it if I knew you had made up your mind.

Zee

ojr said:

Sorry Zee you posted when I was writing, didn't see it till now. wouldn't have done it if I knew you had made up your mind.

Well, I wouldn’t say I’ve made up my mind, but I’m leaning hard. 

Zee

Hit the range this morning with the .303 British to make sure she was still sighted in. 

If the decision is made, I’m good to go. 

GunNut

I think it’s sighted in...

Diver43

Your ready when the time comes

Ernie Bishop

You are good to go!

Zee

Gonna try and watch him this evening from 275 yards away. See how he gets around.