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Man attacks deputy, soaks up 12 shots

Gene LGene L Senior MemberPosts: 11,861 Senior Member
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Replies

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,505 Senior Member
    “Why did you shoot my client 12 times?”

    ”Because 11 wasn’t enough, and 13 would have been too many.”
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 6,298 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    “Why did you shoot my client 12 times?”

    ”Because 11 wasn’t enough, and 13 would have been too many.”
    EVERY class I teach I ask the students who makes the decision to stop shooting.  Invariably they ALL say the shooter does.  Then I repeat what I learned over 10 years ago.  "Nope, it's not your job to make that decision.  The threat decides when he is done being a threat."

    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,505 Senior Member
    edited February 10 #4
    Watching in slow motion, it does not appear that all rounds either hit, or hit center mass. Which proves you can miss sub 5 yards when point shooting with poor skill and ability. 

    Good decision. Poor execution (possibly). 

    Remember kids, only hits count. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 6,298 Senior Member
    I'm actually a little shocked that the attacker did not at least try to grab the deputy's gun.  He let that guy get WAY too close for comfort...  I'm thinking this was a SBC incident.
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,134 Senior Member
    Lawyer:  Why did you shoot my client 11 times?

    Survivor:  I ran out of bullets
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,861 Senior Member
    He must have been high on something,maybe just adrenaline. Clearly, he nutted out for some reason. I'd like to read more details.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,861 Senior Member
    Diver43 said:
    Lawyer:  Why did you shoot my client 11 times?

    Survivor:  I ran out of bullets

    Good bar talk...BAD court talk.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,134 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    Diver43 said:
    Lawyer:  Why did you shoot my client 11 times?

    Survivor:  I ran out of bullets

    Good bar talk...BAD court talk.
    Yea Yea
    More like 
    Why did you shoot him?  He attacked me, threatened to, pointed a gun at me and I feared for my life.
    Why did you shoot him 11 times?  I wasnt counting, I shot him until he was no longer a threat
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,505 Senior Member
    Not sure why the officer didn’t place two hands on his firearm after blocking that one strike with the stick. 
    It looks like he was using his support hand as balance while walking backwards. But, I feel he might have possibly had better impacts had he utilized a two handed grip and aimed center mass. 

    Unfortunately, many PDs do not teach/train shooting and moving (forward, backward, or lateral). I know my local PD doesn’t. 
    That’s a disservice to the officer. 

    While the officer should have taken better care of himself to physically do the job (grossly overweight for LE), it also demonstrated an inadequate level of firearms training for real life situations that officers may face. 

    Too many agencies/offices rely on the completely lacking standard of a qualification course of fire quarterly/biannual/annual to send their officers/agents off to defend themselves and the public. 

    A qualification course of fire is NOT training. It’s a ministrative box to check that the  minimal standards have been met. 

    Lowest common denominator. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,505 Senior Member
    Trying to go frame by frame of the video. Picking out shots and impacts. 
    The deputy did better than I expected. Looking like possibly 50% center mass hits. Better than I thought. But, not as good as should have been. If infact he did miss center mass. 
    The attacker truly did soak up some rounds and kept moving. But, body language seems to show that he was reacting in a positive way to impacts and was shutting down as he continued to walk. 
    Just goes to show......shoot and move until the threat goes away. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,861 Senior Member
    edited February 11 #12
    While qualification is a necessary block to check it can't address every situation. It addressed this one in my state, called a "Failure to stop" where the deputy fires the third round in the head.  Under stress, as this deputy was under, sometimes basic training is lost in the moment.

    Training is VERY expensive, especially now with the dearth of ammunition.  And time-wise, it's not always practical.  Each deputy in my office is required to have 40 hours of training each year, and not all of this is firearms training. We qualified every quarter, IIRC.  We don't have the facilities to train extensively, sad fact.  Other training is necessary in order for the deputy to do his job and to be qualified in other areas. Fact is, an officer is much more likely to us training on, for example, Search and Seizure than response  to a crazy man attacking him with a stick. The training (in my office) was there to stop the situation, but in the heat of the situation that training was lost. There are hundreds of situations that an officer must learn, and training for these is extremely important and more likely to be used rather than armed conflict, which is pretty rare in the long run.

    This attack was close up and the deputy was put in a situation that could have been resolved earlier with a taught Failure to Stop drill....two in CoM, one in the head but that's not the way it played out.  Still, the fight ended well, just not elagantly..
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,913 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Trying to go frame by frame of the video. Picking out shots and impacts. 
    The deputy did better than I expected. Looking like possibly 50% center mass hits. Better than I thought. But, not as good as should have been. If infact he did miss center mass. 
    The attacker truly did soak up some rounds and kept moving. But, body language seems to show that he was reacting in a positive way to impacts and was shutting down as he continued to walk. 
    Just goes to show......shoot and move until the threat goes away. 
    I agree with all you’ve said. 

    Haven’t watched it in slow mo or frame by frame. But after he hits the ground, you can clearly see multiple bullet holes through the graphic on his shirt. I pick out 5 holes in high center mass. So he landed at least close to half his rounds where they were supposed to be. Maybe more that can’t be seen. The others, I don’t know. But it was about 6 seconds from first shot till the threat stopped. Entirely possible for the attacker to keep going for 6 seconds without a CNS hit. 

    Lots of things could have been done better. But the outcome was acceptable. Hopefully he can use that experience to better himself professionally. 
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,861 Senior Member
    edited February 11 #14
    Hopefully, too, others can learn from this video. Learn what, I'm not sure.  The guy should have been dead much sooner than he was. Seems this is one of those one in a thousand happenings, when a guy gets hit in the boiler room (a bunch of times) but continues to attack. SBC (suicide by cop)?  Could be, like I said, I'd like to know more about this situation for learning purposes.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 6,298 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    .....shoot and move until the threat goes away. 
    It also makes me realize I don't have enough shooting while moving BACK in my practice drills.  I aim to correct that pronto...
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,797 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Trying to go frame by frame of the video. Picking out shots and impacts. 
    The deputy did better than I expected. Looking like possibly 50% center mass hits. Better than I thought. But, not as good as should have been. If infact he did miss center mass. 
    The attacker truly did soak up some rounds and kept moving. But, body language seems to show that he was reacting in a positive way to impacts and was shutting down as he continued to walk. 
    Just goes to show......shoot and move until the threat goes away. 
    After watching several times, I am not sure he missed CM by much on a few shots. I count 6 CM but think they were all within the torso. He did soak them up, but was pretty much out of it on the 2nd or 3rd round. Had he been possessing a firearm, the LEO would have been in a world of hurt. He was WAY too close and the nut lasted too long after the first shot.
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,064 Senior Member
    edited February 11 #17
    GunNut said:
    I'm actually a little shocked that the attacker did not at least try to grab the deputy's gun.  He let that guy get WAY too close for comfort...  I'm thinking this was a SBC incident.

    The article said the deputy tried to use his Taser, I didn't see any of that in the video so maybe that happened earlier. What I did see is that the deputy already had his primary defensive weapon deployed and the moment crazy man raised that stick, the deputy should have opened fire. I'm only guessing here because the video footage doesn't make it clear but I'm assuming the deputy had already been trying to deescalate the situation, it didn't work. The article mentions trying to use a Taser, it seems that didn't work or he didn't have time so now he has his last resort raised at the Ready. He should've fired the moment crazy man raised that long stick at him. The deputy was obviously trying his damn best not to shoot but if crazy man had a better weapon, that deputy probably would've been in greater danger (potentially die faster).
    While the deputy had his weapon at the Ready, it seems to me that he didn't really want to shoot crazy man, why else would you relinquish a superior two-hand weapon hold for a one hand hold and use the other hand to try and catch/block/deflect a stick strike that hadn't even begun it's downward swing but he apparently knew was coming. Lessons learned, if you deploy your weapon be very prepared to used it (I didn't say eager, I said prepared). 2) Don't count on One-Shot stops, despite sales ads from ammo makers (if it happens great, consider yourself fortunate). Next, Train-Like-You-Fight (Fight Like You Train), this is hard to do because it takes time, money and dedication to be prepared for most types of lethal encounters. Here where I live, I often shoot IDPA matches with officers from area law enforcement. They're not all very good, their Captain is a good shot, the others still need some work to do. Regrettably, those that shoot alongside with us are the "better ones" in the department. Why? It takes time, money and dedication to participate in things like shooting events.
    When I lived in Arizona the overriding concern when it came to training was money. Whenever someone suggested we go out and train the question of who's going to pay for it always popped up, unfortunate but true.
    I think the deputy did his level best with what he knew how to do, despite what looks like a lack in training when it comes to lethal encounters. Fortunately, the only one who buys the farm is crazy man. It could've been much worse.
    Train Like You Fight so you can Fight Like You Train. It's good advice but you actually have get off your ass and spend the time, money and effort to do it.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,861 Senior Member
    Had he possessed a knife, the deputy would probably been seriously injured or maybe killed. An affirmative defense against the "shoot them in the arm" charge of those who think a knife attack isn't to be taken seriously.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,505 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    Had he possessed a knife, the deputy would probably been seriously injured or maybe killed. An affirmative defense against the "shoot them in the arm" charge of those who think a knife attack isn't to be taken seriously.
    Agree. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 6,298 Senior Member
    Spk said:
    GunNut said:
    I'm actually a little shocked that the attacker did not at least try to grab the deputy's gun.  He let that guy get WAY too close for comfort...  I'm thinking this was a SBC incident.

    The article said the deputy tried to use his Taser, I didn't see any of that in the video so maybe that happened earlier. What I did see is that the deputy already had his primary defensive weapon deployed and the moment crazy man raised that stick, the deputy should have opened fire. I'm only guessing here because the video footage doesn't make it clear but I'm assuming the deputy had already been trying to deescalate the situation, it didn't work. The article mentions trying to use a Taser, it seems that didn't work or he didn't have time so now he has his last resort raised at the Ready. He should've fired the moment crazy man raised that long stick at him. The deputy was obviously trying his damn best not to shoot but if crazy man had a better weapon, that deputy probably would've been in greater danger (potentially die faster).
    While the deputy had his weapon at the Ready, it seems to me that he didn't really want to shoot crazy man, why else would you relinquish a superior two-hand weapon hold for a one hand hold and use the other hand to try and catch/block/deflect a stick strike that hadn't even begun it's downward swing but he apparently knew was coming. Lessons learned, if you deploy your weapon be very prepared to used it (I didn't say eager, I said prepared). 2) Don't count on One-Shot stops, despite sales ads from ammo makers (if it happens great, consider yourself fortunate). Next, Train-Like-You-Fight (Fight Like You Train), this is hard to do because it takes time, money and dedication to be prepared for most types of lethal encounters. Here where I live, I often shoot IDPA matches with officers from area law enforcement. They're not all very good, their Captain is a good shot, the others still need some work to do. Regrettably, those that shoot alongside with us are the "better ones" in the department. Why? It takes time, money and dedication to participate in things like shooting events.
    When I lived in Arizona the overriding concern when it came to training was money. Whenever someone suggested we go out and train the question of who's going to pay for it always popped up, unfortunate but true.
    I think the deputy did his level best with what he knew how to do, despite what looks like a lack in training when it comes to lethal encounters. Fortunately, the only one who buys the farm is crazy man. It could've been much worse.
    Train Like You Fight so you can Fight Like You Train. It's good advice but you actually have get off your ass and spend the time, money and effort to do it.
    The other side of that equation is that you can do a buttload of training and not ever fire a actual shot or even set foot at the range.  You can practice all the fundamentals, grip, draw, shooting stance or positions, acquiring sight picture, moving the gun from one target to another, and even shooting while moving dry firing around your house, or even backyard as long as you have a little privacy.  

    Even when you do go to the range, pandemic panic reigning, .22lr ammo is still about $50 for 500 rounds and there’s tons of it on Gunbroker.  I just had 1,000 rounds of 9mm delivered to my house.  It was not cheap but it was not prohibitively expensive when all angles are taken into consideration.  

    A .22 trainer pistol (and there are a bunch of good ones out there) can still be had reasonably cheap.  I can outfit someone with a Glock 44 and 500 rounds of practice 22 ammo for under $550 if I shop carefully and that is a whole lot of training/practice.

    But most folks do not train to goals or even have goals for training.  They think showing up at the range with 100 rounds and firing them fast at a B27 target from 5-7 yards to a semi acceptable group (or pattern depending on the shooter) will somehow get them through potentially the most disastrous moment of their lives.  Thats not training, that’s just turning ammo into empty cases...
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,064 Senior Member
    It's true a lot of folks don't know what constitutes real training and most have too much pride to ask.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,505 Senior Member
    I understand that an actual shooting incident is rare in the grand scheme of LE things regarding what physical/admin training garners the most budget/time. 

    My only thought is, you can screw up paperwork and live. You can’t screw up deadly force. 

    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,505 Senior Member
    Of the various things this deputy did “wrong” (used loosely as he walked away from the incident in the end)......the one thing he did “right” was that he kept shooting until the threat went away. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,294 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Of the various things this deputy did “wrong” (used loosely as he walked away from the incident in the end)......the one thing he did “right” was that he kept shooting until the threat went away. 
    That is true.  The bad guy always gets a vote in how the situation starts, and when it ends.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,861 Senior Member
    We can break it down frame by frame, but the deputy didn't have that ability. He acted pretty well, IMO.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,383 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Not sure why the officer didn’t place two hands on his firearm after blocking that one strike with the stick. 
    It looks like he was using his support hand as balance while walking backwards. But, I feel he might have possibly had better impacts had he utilized a two handed grip and aimed center mass. 

    I'm thinking that the officer took some injury to his left hand blocking the attack with the stick.  Either that, or he's got his wires crossed and and was expecting the need to block again.

    One of my pet issues with handguns is that it is called a HAND (singular) gun, yet many folks don't spend any time developing the ability to shoot one-handed, and they absolutely SUCK when they try it.  We've kind of gotten to a point where a two-handed grip is a crutch for a crappy one-handed one.  If you develop the skills to hit effectively one-handed, two just becomes gravy, PLUS you get the benefit of being able to shoot effectively while blocking blows, opening doors, using your radio, etc...

    Zee said:

    While the officer should have taken better care of himself to physically do the job (grossly overweight for LE), it also demonstrated an inadequate level of firearms training for real life situations that officers may face. 

    I'm nobody's poster boy to advertise gym memberships, but there's a point where you gotta throw SOME stones. I'm not sure that big guy is even capable of bringing his arms into his centerline to get eyes on his sights.  He certainly hasn't done a crouched SWAT walk - let alone a backwards one - in a very long time.

    Zee said:

    Too many agencies/offices rely on the completely lacking standard of a qualification course of fire quarterly/biannual/annual to send their officers/agents off to defend themselves and the public. 

    Yup.  Far better to mix it up somehow.  You're never going to get enough time, money, and ammo to get them where's you'd like them to be, but you can at least make them think by throwing in some CQB drills one quarter, long distance the next, use of cover every now and again, displace right and left on the draw, sneak some dummies into their mags, low light, etc...  As long as realistic marksmanship standards are held throughout, it keeps them flexible.

    Training scars from constant runs through the same qual course are very real.  I've heard of one officer being killed because department doctrine was to always step one direction on the draw, and that caused this officer to actually LEAVE cover.  It's bad to be a robot.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,505 Senior Member
    edited February 13 #27
    Two handed grip after the fact. 

    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,383 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    He must have been high on something,maybe just adrenaline. Clearly, he nutted out for some reason. I'd like to read more details.
    Certainly some screws loose, but nothing surprising physiologically.  From first shot to his legs giving out, I counted 5-6 seconds.  We've seen with Zee's pig shoots and elsewhere, a single cardio hit seems to take about 8-10 seconds for the same result.  Illustrates the importance of good shot placement AND multiple hits.  Even if you do everything right, they can still have enough time to plant a knife in your chest and take you with them.

    Best visual lesson I ever had for this was the "Bodyworlds" museum exhibit of plastinated human cadavers displayed in various states of "exploded parts diagram" disassembly that really gives you a 3D perception of how all the important stuff is arranged.  Imagine your threat's torso impaled on a 4" diameter flagpole running from between his legs up through the top of his head like some grotesque merry-go-round animal.  No matter what the angle to your threat, that pole is your target.  Rounds there will stand a VERY good chance of stopping things quickly.  Not hitting that - very much less so.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,064 Senior Member
    He also started with a two hand grip so there's that, then he gives it up to prepare for the stick attack.
    My impression was that this officer's mind wasn't were it needed to be. Lucky for him, at least he pulled the trigger (after being attacked) and walked out alive. I said it before, if crazy man had a better weapon the outcome could've been different.
    No good cop ever says to him or herself, "I hope I shoot someone today", but your mind better know it's a possibility everytime you put on that badge.
    I'm just glad it didn't have an even worse outcome.
    I still have no clue what was going through crazy's mind.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,505 Senior Member
    Spk said:

    No good {person} ever says to him or herself, "I hope I shoot someone today", but your mind better know it's a possibility everytime you put on {a gun}. 
    It pertains to everyone who carries a firearm (CCW). 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,505 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    We can break it down frame by frame, but the deputy didn't have that ability. He acted pretty well, IMO.
    But, it’s up to us (others) to learn from the situation. Good and bad. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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