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Man attacks deputy, soaks up 12 shots

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  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,397 Senior Member
    edited February 13 #32
    Zee said:
    Gene L said:
    We can break it down frame by frame, but the deputy didn't have that ability. He acted pretty well, IMO.
    But, it’s up to us (others) to learn from the situation. Good and bad. 

    I've watched this several times and honestly don't know what lessons to take from this. Looks to me the deputy did everything right, more or less, except go for a head shot, which I understand in a 6-second scenario. If he'd done the head shot, it may have stopped the guy 2 seconds sooner. My office's Failure to Stop drill is done at 7 yards and is aimed, taking up time. The deputy was shooting COM very quickly and didn't  have time to aim, IMO.Or shift his impact w/out aiming...he was too busy pumping rounds into COM. Nothing wrong with where he was hitting. Maybe initiate contact at a longer range?  That part isn't shown, his initial reaction to a guy armed with a stick.  I'm not saying he did everything by the book right, I think he responded adequately and well to a surprise attack.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 13,546 Senior Member
    If it were me, I would be having some doubt in the situation and wonder what I was doing wrong if I saw the attacker taking multiple hits in the area I was aiming and still coming, really drives home that I should keep shooting and keep moving, stay on task, good learning moment, thanks Gene. 
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,554 Senior Member
    My biggest take-aways are the importance of distance and not underestimating how determined some people can be.
    From the moment crazy man picked up that stick from the ground the deputy should have known things where going downhill. We can't really hear in the video but I'm certain the officer was trying to deescalate or otherwise regain control. I get the impression the officer believed that talking to this guy at gun point would "convince" him to stand down. For any "reasonable" person it probably would have worked. This guy wasn't being reasonable, he demonstrated that the moment he picked up the stick, all the while an officer had him at gun point! The officer then tried to create distance but it was already too late, any distance he tried to create was immediately closed by the crazy man. Words weren't working and he certainly didn't care that an officer had him at gun point. As a result of that lack of distance, the officer received not 1 but 2 hits from the crazy man before opening fire. I said it before, had crazy man possessed a better weapon we might be discussing a different story.
    One good impact from that stick could have easily rendered the officer senseless enough to expose him to further attack (a potentially lethal attack).
    So my biggest take-aways were distance and underestimating the conviction (state of mind) of the perpetrator.
    I do think there are lessons to be learned from this video.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,397 Senior Member
    Thanks for the response,SPK.  Now, what lessons learned from this video and I mean lessons that can be applied to other situations?  I'm not being a smartass, I just as I said don't know what could be learned that would apply to LE response in the future and in general.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,851 Senior Member
    I didn't watch the video. My phone's kinda wonky. 

    I don't figure I could dodge a charging bull while juggling eggs any better than an LEO.. Luckily, as a civilian. I can forget the eggs and just focus on the horns.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,812 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    Thanks for the response,SPK.  Now, what lessons learned from this video and I mean lessons that can be applied to other situations?  I'm not being a smartass, I just as I said don't know what could be learned that would apply to LE response in the future and in general.
    The officer's line of retreat was sub-optimal for a couple reasons:

    1.  He kept backing up in line with his attacker's advance.  No way you're going to win that race.  A hard move right or left every few steps would at least force the nutter butter to reorient and might have allowed the officer to open the distance somewhat.

    2. He stayed in the centerline of the road and put himself in a situation where moving to his right might have been blocked by cars and moving to his left might have put him into oncoming traffic.  Scooting towards the cameraman's right would have put him on the shoulder with a wooded backstop - - one going across a perpendicular road with active traffic on it to be sure, but better than a crowded elementary school.

    3.  The pelvic shot might be a fair option in that situation - heaviest bone in the body; gets them on the ground; might even cut the femorals.  Not aware of anyone really still teaching or advocating it these days, but we have ample data that suggests that cardio shots may not punch the "OFF" switch fast enough.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,099 Senior Member
    I’m a believer in pelvic shots. Seen it work. 👍🏻
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 13,546 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    I’m a believer in pelvic shots. Seen it work. 👍🏻
    Do folks survive these shots?
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,099 Senior Member
    On a side note, anybody else think the Dude videoing was a bit of a ass?  Help, get out of the way, or do SOMETHING!!!  But, videoing with an ass hat commentary.........loser. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,099 Senior Member
    Yes. Off-lining would have been a good option. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,099 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 said:
    Zee said:
    I’m a believer in pelvic shots. Seen it work. 👍🏻
    Do folks survive these shots?
    I know one that did. He’s paralyzed from the waist down and paired to a colostomy bag. Didn’t move much after the shot, though. Decided to give up the AK and stop being a threat. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 13,546 Senior Member
    edited February 14 #43
    Knowing the anatomy, that sounds about right, surprised one made it. No more active forward motion in general once those shots are placed or have some kept going for a bit? Pistol ammo or rifle ammo used?
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,099 Senior Member
    edited February 14 #44
    CHIRO1989 said:
    Knowing the anatomy, that sounds about right, surprised one made it. No more active forward motion in general once those shots are placed or have some kept going for a bit? Pistol ammo or rifle ammo used?
    Rifle. 
    168gr Hornady A-Max @ 350 yrds 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • BoynextdoorBoynextdoor Posts: 1 New Member
    edited February 14 #45
    OMg, it's disgusting!
  • FreezerFreezer Senior Member Posts: 2,144 Senior Member
    I can't judge that officer, I wasn't in his shoes and don't have his insight and training. I commend him for trying to deescalate the situation. I addition all of his shots, under stress, hit the COM and did not go down range causing collateral damage. Not a bad thing. I've seen worse under less stressful situations.

    LEOs are walking on egg shells everyday as some fool is always ready to capitalize on a bad situation with a cell phone and thoughts of social media popularity. Personally I'm glad the man stayed in the car. His video was good evidence and great for training purposes. Had he gotten out he would have been a distraction to the officer especially if he tried to help. Let the officer control the situation. A person charging in could look like another assailant and get shot also. Pull a weapon and compound that officer's problems. LEOs have enough to think about in  high stress situation, control it let it. If it goes all bad and the officers control is lost, help him but until then let him concentrate on the situation, not you. At least the civilian was in support of the officer and not saying "Oh **** here we go again! Police brutality."

    Trying to help reminds me of two mall shooting situations. The first was in a parking lot. The bad guy was brandishing and firing. A person with a CCW and permit took cover and started to return fire as a LEO arrived on scene. The officer had to figure out who the bad guy was! If the BG is smart he would be pointing at the other guy saying," Shoot'em , Shoot'em".

    The second was inside a mall. There was an active shooter in the mall. Folks were running for cover. A good Samaritan with a CCW and permit drew his weapon and went looking for he shooter. When LEOs arrived they saw a man running in the mall with a gun in his hand. You can guess what happened and the BG got away. I would want to be those officers or the Samaritan.

    I understand critique and training value. He did OK. He went home.
    I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
  • orchidmanorchidman Senior Member Posts: 8,272 Senior Member
    I wont comment on the circumstances or shooting.

    I am just waiting till the riots and looting start...............
    Still enjoying the trip of a lifetime and making the best of what I have.....
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 13,546 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    CHIRO1989 said:
    Knowing the anatomy, that sounds about right, surprised one made it. No more active forward motion in general once those shots are placed or have some kept going for a bit? Pistol ammo or rifle ammo used?
    Rifle. 
    168gr Hornady A-Max @ 350 yrds 
    Wow, now I am really surprised that he made it.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,812 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    On a side note, anybody else think the Dude videoing was a bit of a ass?  Help, get out of the way, or do SOMETHING!!!  But, videoing with an ass hat commentary.........loser. 
    Agreed. . .but it's a bit instructive all the same:  the bystander filming the incident is yelling the cop should drop the hammer long before the cop actually does.  No telling what the bystander's qualifications to judge the situation are, but the video, with commentary, is probably admissible to show the officer showed restraint well above and beyond the call.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,877 Senior Member
    edited February 14 #50
    orchidman said:
    I wont comment on the circumstances or shooting.

    I am just waiting till the riots and looting start...............
    As you can tell by the commentary, that won't happen! Will probably be some parties happening though. Whole "different" set of circumstances involved.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,675 Senior Member
    This could have been settled without gunfire had a qualified mental health professional been dispatched to the scene....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,877 Senior Member
    Bigslug said:

    Agreed. . .but it's a bit instructive all the same:  the bystander filming the incident is yelling the cop should drop the hammer long before the cop actually does.  No telling what the bystander's qualifications to judge the situation are, but the video, with commentary, is probably admissible to show the officer showed restraint well above and beyond the call.
    Would be a whole 'nother discussion about why the bystander/filmer felt that way. 
  • FreezerFreezer Senior Member Posts: 2,144 Senior Member
    edited February 14 #53
    Jayhawker said:
    This could have been settled without gunfire had a qualified mental health professional been dispatched to the scene....
    I hope this was tongue in cheek.

    That maybe true but now we have an entire separate force to deal with 5150s. The poor dispatchers have to disseminate and dispatch the correct force. NO! Their job is hard enough.I don't want to think of the second 

    That cop was called to deal with a 5150, the COM dictated the response. The LEOs I've dealt with have mental health issue training. From what I saw this officer didn't want to fire, he was left no choice. My heart goes out to him. His arm hurts but he went home, he did his best. His shots hit their target. The bystander didn't complicate the officers situation.

    Bravo to both!

     What a good training video!
    I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,675 Senior Member
    Freezer said:
    Jayhawker said:
    This could have been settled without gunfire had a qualified mental health professional been dispatched to the scene....
    I hope this was tongue in cheek.

    That maybe true but now we have an entire separate force to deal with 5150s. The poor dispatchers have to disseminate and dispatch the correct force. NO! Their job is hard enough.I don't want to think of the second 

    That cop was called to deal with a 5150, the COM dictated the response. The LEOs I've dealt with have mental health issue training. From what I saw this officer didn't want to fire, he was left no choice. My heart goes out to him. His arm hurts but he went home, he did his best. His shots hit their target. The bystander didn't complicate the officers situation.

    Bravo to both!

     What a good training video!
    Of course it was dripping with sarcasm....
    But this is how those people who have never spent a minute in law enforcement, fire or EMS think...they don't believe that monsters exist...they think that every "EDP" can be talked down...

    They're in for a big shock when they send that mental health professional to deal with an out of control EDP unless they send them with a tranquilizer gun loaded with a heavy dose of Haldol...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,554 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    Thanks for the response,SPK.  Now, what lessons learned from this video and I mean lessons that can be applied to other situations?  I'm not being a smartass, I just as I said don't know what could be learned that would apply to LE response in the future and in general.

    Like I said earlier, the importance of distance. It does seem like the officer is standing too close to a man he has at gun point. The crazy man has a stick, the officer has a handgun, create distance between you before it's too late. Remember the Tueller drill (aka 21' rule)
    I don't know what exactly led the officer to draw his weapon but he has it at the ready and I'm assuming he feels it's necessary (that's were the video starts).
    The background:

    The incident happened around 8 a.m. Saturday. Montgomery County police received several 911 calls Saturday morning of a man driving erratically in the area. Police Chief Marcus Jones said two cars were struck by the driver before the deputy arrived on the scene.

    When the deputy arrived, he saw the man approaching two people with a large wooden stick, according to Sheriff Darren Popkin. When the deputy intervened, the deputy and the man began fighting, and the man struck the deputy at least once with the piece of wood.

    I don't know what information was passed along during the radio call but the article says the police received several 911 calls. This could be a road rage incident, domestic disturbance now on the road or alcohol/drug/gang related. I'm guessing the officer didn't know either but after several 911 calls, it can't be good.

    When he arrives, this guy is reportedly already threatening other people with that stick. I don't see any reason why the officer is standing that close to someone this hostile. I'm pretty sure the officer believes in that hostility himself considering he has his weapon drawn. In this case distance would have worked in favor of the officer. If you feel this threatened, don't get so close. Apparently, being the only officer on scene he would've been justified in keeping his distance until other officers arrived. Of course, crazy man wasn't and didn't wait for any of that and gave the officer no other choice but to shoot. It could've ended worse for the officer if the crazy man were more quick and focused in his attack.

    Remember of the 21' rule.

    Believe me Gene, this is a critique of the events as seen through the limited viewpoint of the video, not an attack on the officer in any way. Every incident is going to have an after-action report of some kind or another on how to do things better going forward.

    I said it before, luckily only the crazy man went down.

     



    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • FreezerFreezer Senior Member Posts: 2,144 Senior Member
    Thank you Jay Hawker I understand.

    SPK, you make a good point. Other people were in the vicinity. All kind of thoughts could have been in this cops mind! How many lookie lous where there? All his shot hit the subject, not a bystander. If he changed position would his down range shot endanger others? All those folks witnessed him kill a man. We have no idea what we had to deal with.  He'll nurse his wounds mental and physical. I pray he can reconcile he mental wounds.
    I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,812 Senior Member
    Thanks for posting the video Spk.  Always good to have Dennis Tueller in the room.

    I've dabbled with testing the 21-foot principle and found Dennis is spot on with his time assessments:  it takes me (neglectful of exercise) about a second and a half to cover seven yards from a standing start, and it takes most trained folks about two seconds to react to a turning target, draw, and get their first round off - - and that's when they KNOW the target is going to simulate an attack, and they KNOW they are going to shoot.

    Now possibly slow that reaction time further with needing to make sure of exactly what it is you're reacting to.  Fear of making the wrong call has put more than one cop in mortal danger with that delay.  We've also seen that you can add five or more seconds for the effect of any solid, but non-cerebro/spinal shot to be seen.  This tends to have me think more in terms of something like 50 feet - which is a difficult  and probably unreasonable thing to achieve when you complicate things with the fact that it's a cop's job to ideally close with folks, maybe have a conversation, or put handcuffs on them.

    Tasers are a great tool, but you only get one chance with them to get both darts solidly connecting, and you only get 21 feet of range with them (see above problems).  This is why they aren't deployed against hand-weapon-armed subject by officers who are solo without a team backing them up.  That Taser team includes somebody with a lethal force option ready to go.

    To my way of thinking, those lethal force options should include at least one shotgun loaded with buckshot to provide the most incapacitating force possible within that sub-21-foot / things-are-already-scary-enough distance.  Safari guides have understood this principle for ages and back up their clients with large-bore double rifles for exactly the same reasons.

    The real lesson in the above video may ultimately be an administrative one.  A solo cop has A LOT less options for dealing with these situations than a pair, and a pair of officers riding in the same car gets a lot more options still if they can be rapidly supported by ANOTHER pair of officers in another car patrolling the same general area.  The single cop pretty much has his wits and a pistol, where the group can have one or more less-lethal options, lethal options, and communication to both the suspect and the cavalry.  This of course can be seen by some as an inefficient or prohibitively expensive way to cover large areas with limited cops available, but it cuts down on the need to shoot people, which is ideally the goal.  In that regard, the whole "Defund The Police" movement might result in more shootings rather than less.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,397 Senior Member
    edited February 15 #58
    I understand Spk, that it's not a censure of the officer.  As for distance, you can't shoot someone who is carrying a stick and breaks the 21 foot rule. Especially if you don't know his intentions. If he's not attacked someone beforehand, and only "menaced." And a knife is considered more "deadly", I believe, than a stick. This video may change that, though.

    Nothing is as simple as it seems. One thing to consider if a stick is a deadly weapon, will this curtail LEO's use of them? Something to think about. No doubt about this shooting, but it illustrates why it is a one-off shooting.

    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,540 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    This could have been settled without gunfire had a qualified mental health professional been dispatched to the scene....
    I showed this video to my wife, and about 20 seconds into it, that was her exact response. I said, who were you gonna send? ...my niece (PHD in forensic psychology), your mother (PHD in early childhood psychology), your son (PHD in clinical psychology), my sister (MA in Substance Abuse) or me (who knows a 6 o'clock hold at centermass). I told her she's an effing idiot if it was a tough decision. She likely won't speak to me for days. Oh well.....

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,540 Senior Member
    And I don't mean my above post to be flippant in any way. But, aside from the issues of psychological crises involved, there is a matter of time. 

    Aside from my opinion that there are few, if any psychs (of any ilk) willing to hang their careers on acting as crossing guards at likely street corners to keep crazy off the streets (their effectiveness  being an entirely different matter)....there wasn't time for that.

    Open and shut. The man in Blue did what he had to do. Period.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,675 Senior Member
    There are a lot of folks that feel that way....only problem is, they have spent their lives in their "safe places" while they form their "ideas"...never having responded to a real life crisis involving real people on the worst day of their lives...and have no clue what's involved in intervening those situations...
    Pretty easy to come up with that nonsense from the safety of your couch while being outraged about something you saw on TV
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
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