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Man attacks deputy, soaks up 12 shots

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  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,392 Senior Member
    A "defund" advocate in Athens-Clarke County GA. Commissioner calls for more psychological intervention and less "militant" responses to officer actions.  She's a nut.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,536 Senior Member
    Per my previous posts, you can see there are a lot of "psychs" of various species in my immediate family tree. I doubt a single one of them would volunteer to be "on call" for 12 hours a day 5 days a week, much less "on call as needed".

    Day-to-day psych intervention, on an immediate "as needed" basis is a pipe-dream.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 22,382 Senior Member
    Working as a nurse in a mental hospital, I deal with psyche patients every day I work. When one is having a "bad day", quite often the ONLY solution is a large injection of multiple types of "happy juice" (Ativan, Haldol, Benadryl)

    This is in a controlled environment, where I know they're not armed and I have plenty of help securing them.

    Out in the "wild" like this situation, NOPE, not happening. at least not for this little red duck
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,673 Senior Member
    edited February 15 #65
    I'm imagining an ambulance painted in a rainbow scheme for the Mental Health Emergency Response Team....something that has a speaker that plays calming music instead of a siren...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,536 Senior Member
    I'm imagining any of my aforementioned highly degreed family members showing up at a stick-fight without a police escort.

    Sorry....I'm not having much luck with that.......

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,546 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    I'm imagining an ambulance painted in a rainbow scheme for the Mental Health Emergency Response Team....something that has a speaker that plays calming music instead of a siren...
    With a little therapy everyone can achieve Nirvana and be well adjusted like this family.

    Folks just need a little time in the Harmony Hut. 😁


    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    This could have been settled without gunfire had a qualified mental health professional been dispatched to the scene....
    I showed this video to my wife, and about 20 seconds into it, that was her exact response. I said, who were you gonna send? ...my niece (PHD in forensic psychology), your mother (PHD in early childhood psychology), your son (PHD in clinical psychology), my sister (MA in Substance Abuse) or me (who knows a 6 o'clock hold at centermass). I told her she's an effing idiot if it was a tough decision. She likely won't speak to me for days. Oh well.....

    Mike
    You sweet talker you... 🤣
  • dlddld Member Posts: 441 Member
    curios to what ammo he was using ( ball, hp), and of course would a 45 of had the same result.
  • X104RFASTX104RFAST Posts: 23 New Member
    dld said:
    curios to what ammo he was using ( ball, hp), and of course would a 45 of had the same result.
    I was wondering the same thing. That officer was very lucky the BG wasn't
    armed with something more lethal than a stick. Scary video for sure!
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,392 Senior Member
    dld said:
    curios to what ammo he was using ( ball, hp), and of course would a 45 of had the same result.

    BG was dead after the first couple of rounds, he just didn't realize it.  I don't think caliber meant a whole lot.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,536 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    dld said:
    curios to what ammo he was using ( ball, hp), and of course would a 45 of had the same result.

    BG was dead after the first couple of rounds, he just didn't realize it.  I don't think caliber meant a whole lot.
    Gotta disagree. He obviously didn't realize he was dead, and that can pose a bit of a problem occasionally. A 12 ga slug or buck would have ended his confusion a whole lot quicker. Possibly even a .45  ACP or .357 Mag. 

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,877 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    dld said:
    curios to what ammo he was using ( ball, hp), and of course would a 45 of had the same result.

    BG was dead after the first couple of rounds, he just didn't realize it.  I don't think caliber meant a whole lot.
    Gotta disagree. He obviously didn't realize he was dead, and that can pose a bit of a problem occasionally. A 12 ga slug or buck would have ended his confusion a whole lot quicker. Possibly even a .45  ACP or .357 Mag. 

    Mike
    I actually agree with Gene. After the first few shots he did not do a whole lot besides walk a few steps and collapse. I think his body was shutting down but his brain allowed him to take those last few steps. He took his last breath very shortly after going down (according to the video). I think the damage would have came before the first shot since the officer let him get WAY too close.

    JMO after watching several times.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,392 Senior Member
    Well, the deputy took a lick, for sure.  Maybe he should have started shooting a step or two sooner, but it's not my call on that issue. I don't remember or it isn't recorded on the start of the fight but it would be harder to justify shooting a guy BEFORE he raised the stick.  One of the things about being a cop, you've got milliseconds to react and your actions will be pored over for minutes/hours.  I think he did well, all things considered.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,546 Senior Member
    This guy was certainly a case of the walking dead. His brain seem disconnected from reality, he was angry and severely agitated. He seemed irrational and it looks like the thing that finally stopped him was the lack of oxygen to the brain. Short of a CNS shot, I don't think he was going down a whole lot sooner. That officer was in serious danger the moment crazy raised that stick at him. I'm just glad the deputy managed to walk away from that encounter.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,536 Senior Member
    I'm still of the opinion a 12 ga. slug at 4 times the distance would have knocked him on his ass immediately. Maybe not dead yet, but his weapon is out of the equation. 

    That's the difference between shotguns and "other stuff".

    Mike

    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • FreezerFreezer Senior Member Posts: 2,143 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    Well, the deputy took a lick, for sure.  Maybe he should have started shooting a step or two sooner, but it's not my call on that issue. I don't remember or it isn't recorded on the start of the fight but it would be harder to justify shooting a guy BEFORE he raised the stick.  One of the things about being a cop, you've got milliseconds to react and your actions will be pored over for minutes/hours.  I think he did well, all things considered.
    +1
    I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,061 Senior Member
    edited February 19 #78
    I'm still of the opinion a 12 ga. slug at 4 times the distance would have knocked him on his ass immediately. Maybe not dead yet, but his weapon is out of the equation. 

    That's the difference between shotguns and "other stuff".

    Mike

    From my experience, a shotgun slug is the “Hand of God”. Definitive and unquestionable. You KNOW when you’ve been “touched”. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,061 Senior Member
    And, the evaluation of this video is not about what he did “wrong” necessarily. As arm chair quarterbacking someone in a life or death situation is kind of a crappy thing to do if you weren’t there. 

    It’s more about, what can “we” do better? If faced with a similar situation. 

    If we don’t learn, we repeat. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,392 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    And, the evaluation of this video is not about what he did “wrong” necessarily. As arm chair quarterbacking someone in a life or death situation is kind of a crappy thing to do if you weren’t there. 

    It’s more about, what can “we” do better? If faced with a similar situation. 

    If we don’t learn, we repeat. 

    Therein is the problem.  I don't know what lessons are there for us to learn.  A slug from a 12  gauge might have stopped him sooner, but you can't always have a shotgun, and the deputy didn't.  Got to go with what you have and you can't as a LEO bring a shotgun out to a dispute with a guy with a stick.  I'm willing to learn, though, and would like to hear suggestions of lessons learned because I'm stumped on this one.  It seems to be a one-off situation.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,061 Senior Member
    edited February 19 #81
    Hell, that’s easy. 

    -Maintaining a better physical condition for the job would likely have afforded the officer more mobility to physically avoid the situation instead of utilizing his off side hand to maintain balance while walking backwards as what “appears” to have been necessary. 
    -Offline. A one dimensional avoidance of a threat makes it easier for your attacker to close the distance and engage with whatever weapon they have. 
    -Failure Drill. When the center mass shots don’t give you the desired effect, move to an alternate target to attain the desired results. Doing the same thing that isn’t working and expecting different results is asinine. 
    -Don’t close the distance on a weapon that can reach you outside of your control. 
    -Two handed control of ones weapon is preferable to one handed. (See too fat to walk backwards without support hand balance.) :assumptionfromaction:
    -Officer Presence. It’s as visual as it is verbal. If I think I can “take you”, I’m probably gonna try. (See overweight and immobile reference.). Some will try regardless and the response should be immediate to change their mind. 

    There are likely others. But, that’s off the top of my head and likely wasted anyway as you will disagree and differ. 

    Learn from history or repeat it. Improve or stagnate.   Adapt or flounder. 

    Your choice. 

    :popcorn:
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Hell, that’s easy. 

    -Maintaining a better physical condition for the job would likely have afforded the officer more mobility to physically avoid the situation instead of utilizing his off side hand to maintain balance while walking backwards as what “appears” to have been necessary. 
    -Offline. A one dimensional avoidance of a threat makes it easier for your attacker to close the distance and engage with whatever weapon they have. 
    -Failure Drill. When the center mass shots don’t give you the desired effect, move to an alternate target to attain the desired results. Doing the same thing that isn’t working and expecting different results is asinine. 
    -Don’t close the distance on a weapon that can reach you outside of your control. 
    -Two handed control of ones weapon is preferable to one handed. (See too fat to walk backwards without support hand balance.) :assumptionfromaction:
    -Officer Presence. It’s as visual as it is verbal. If I think I can “take you”, I’m probably gonna try. (See overweight and immobile reference.). Some will try regardless and the response should be immediate to change their mind. 

    There are likely others. But, that’s off the top of my head and likely wasted anyway as you will disagree and differ. 

    Learn from history or repeat it. Improve or stagnate.   Adapt or flounder. 

    Your choice. 

    :popcorn:
    Funny, since my wife trained with some disreputable individuals she has a habit of putting a couple of shots COM and dropping one to the pelvis for good measure...  
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,392 Senior Member
    edited February 19 #83
    You all bring up some good points. Lessons: A shotgun slug may have killed him deader and qudker, but the LEO didn't have a shotgun. Nor should he have,  so no lesson there. 

    The BG advanced on the deputy before he raised the stick, and there was some interaction before the recording, so we don't know what was said.  Once the BG attempted to hit the deputy and actually hit his arm, the deputy didn't immediately shoot and the BG didn't stop advancing, even under threat of a drawn gun.  That threat is usually enough to deter someone advancing, but not this guy.

    LEOs are not taught to shoot someone in the pelvis.  This solution is tailoring this particular situation and attempting to make it general, but that's poor training for future shooting situations which are likely to be much different.  Pelvis shooting  is less effective for stopping a fight than shooting a failure to stop drill in the head.  But as I said before the guy was dead in the first couple of rounds, he just didn't know it.  I'm not sure a failure drill would have ended it much quicker, although that's the drill.  One of the reasons behind the drill is in case someone is wearing body armor, not close up advancing like this.  This is a highly unusual situation and the usual responses aren't necessarily the right answer..

    There is no reason to believe if the deputy had been a slim body builder the outcome would have been any different.  Likewise, he defended himself from a strike with his left hand and had reason to believe he might have to do so again, so a one hand grip is perfectly reasonable.

    Clearly, the deputy was in panic mode, which is understandable if you have a large BG advancing on you from 3 feet away and not reacting to CoM rounds. Training can mitigate panic somewhat, but never eliminate it unless your shooting a lot to defend your life. He fired 12 rounds in about 4-5 seconds, one handed and apparently hit most of them CoM.  i'm not sure he would have had time to adjust his aiming point to the head in such a short time period...especially with the guy still advancing on him.  He instinctively continued to shoot for the largest target.  Failure drills in my agency are aimed at 7 yards, and you get aiming time, so even if the deputy had been trained in failure drills, likely he wouldn't have had time to follow the training.

    Lessons learned?  If a civilian, like most of us are now, the lesson is to not get involved in a confrontation with a guy armed with a stick and a lack of fear of getting shot.  If attacked by same, do what it takes to survive.

    For LEOs, as a former trainer, including a firearms instructor, I see a few things that COULD have been done differently, but most of what I see is Monday Morning QBing and not under the stress of a large guy coming toward me up close who isn't responding to being shot in the chest.  It turned out well as it could have, and as they say in the Airforce, any landing you walk away from is a successful landing.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,061 Senior Member
    edited February 19 #84
    I’ll need some time to address the wrong in the above post. Will work on it later. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,546 Senior Member
    I'm still of the opinion a 12 ga. slug at 4 times the distance would have knocked him on his ass immediately. Maybe not dead yet, but his weapon is out of the equation. 

    That's the difference between shotguns and "other stuff".

    Mike

    I hear you on the slugs but 30 years ago in Arizona all of our department shotguns were loaded with Winchester 00 buck (4 in the tube, none in the chamber). I don't know what police use today in their Patrol shotguns. A few officers locally that serve on their department's tactical teams carry M4's around but the average patrol officer has to make due with the shotgun. I don't know if they're allowed to use slugs (for legal reasons). In Arizona, the upper echelon was worried about over penetration or the stray missed shot. In the military we carried M16's in the vehicle and I was glad for that but on the civilian side still a lot of concern about liabilities.
    Here at home I have all my Defensive shotguns loaded with slugs and I wouldn't have it any other way.
    I think our local police still have their Patrol shotguns loaded with buckshot but I'm not sure. I'll check into it. I don't think another police duty pistol caliber would've made that much more of a difference with the crazy man in the OP. For a lot of BGs pain and the thought of being shot usually does the trick (psychological stops) but then there's are a small few that just don't stop so readily and you have to put them down hard (physical stop). It seems to me that this guy was one of those people. Short of a shotgun loaded with slugs or something in the .308 Win class of rifle round, I still don't believe he would've stopped a whole lot sooner without a CNS hit using a duty pistol.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,536 Senior Member
    Directed at no one in particular.....

    While stationed  on Okinawa, if on base we were policed by Marine MP's or Navy Shore Patrol. Both armed with mostly 1911s in .45 ACP, or the occasional .38 Spl. In the course of a year, on that relatively small island, I witnessed more than a few confrontations between well drunk Marines and your choice of the afore mentioned LEO's. Not a good choice, but not really uncommon.

    Now....you step outside of the base gates and the policing became JP's (Japanese Police). None carried a handgun. To a man, they carried a 12 ga.Win pump slung over their shoulder without seeming to cause them undue burden, nor any alarm among the populace.

    I never saw a single confrontation between a US Marine or local civilian with a JP in the entire year.

    Food for thought.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,392 Senior Member
    The BG was never at shotgun range.  Too close.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,061 Senior Member
    edited February 20 #88
    Hahahaha!!!  You can’t make this stuff up. Priceless. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,702 Senior Member


    Overkill is underrated.
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,536 Senior Member
    edited February 20 #90
    Gene L said:
    The BG was never at shotgun range.  Too close.
    There's 3 lethal points of contact with that weapon, without even firing a shot, you know.  Maybe the Army didn't teach that, but the Marines do. No offense intended.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,392 Senior Member
    edited February 20 #91
    Don't bring a shotgun to a pistol fight.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
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