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Man attacks deputy, soaks up 12 shots

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  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,536 Senior Member
    I really like your sigline.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,550 Senior Member
    I'd like to know the why? Buck does seem to work better up close. And if he was too close, that sounds like a lesson going forward.

    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,536 Senior Member
    And, yeah....I'd take a shotgun to a pistol fight every swinging time. I'm way better (and faster) with a shotgun than most perps are with a handgun. And against a guy with a stick? Probably end less than lethal. He might be minus a foot, though.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,090 Senior Member
    edited February 20 #95
    Uh......create distance?  Don’t get so close Oh wait. We mentioned that already. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,090 Senior Member
    And, yeah....I'd take a shotgun to a pistol fight every swinging time. I'm way better (and faster) with a shotgun than most perps are with a handgun. And against a guy with a stick? Probably end less than lethal. He might be minus a foot, though.

    Mike
    That’s called good odds. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,392 Senior Member
    edited February 20 #97
    You guys illustrate why civilians should NEVER determine LE training.  Linefinder, you would never bring a shotgun to a citizen interaction if you were a cop.  That's ridiculous and no solution to a cop problem.  Most know better.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,090 Senior Member
    edited February 20 #98
    Ummmmmm.......,selling shoes is no easy job.😁
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,536 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    You guys illustrate why civilians should NEVER determine LE training.  Linefinder, you would never bring a shotgun to a citizen interaction if you were a cop.  That's ridiculous and no solution to a cop problem.  Most know better.
    Japanese didn't seem to have a problem with it. And neither did we. 
    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,536 Senior Member
    Wait....most early interactions in this country were between shotgun wielding lawman/citizens and fast horse riding pistoleros. We see how that went.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,536 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    You guys illustrate why civilians should NEVER determine LE training.  Linefinder, you would never bring a shotgun to a citizen interaction if you were a cop.  That's ridiculous and no solution to a cop problem.  Most know better.
    I'm trying to wrap my head around your statement. I'm 10 or more years younger than you, but I grew up with cops having a .38 Spl on their belt and a short barreled 12 GA. Pump in the car. Never saw a hi-cap 9mm on a cops belt or an AR in a cop car until I was 30 or more. 

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,392 Senior Member
    edited February 20 #102
    Which is what our deputies have today, plus a rifle in the trunk.  They don't answer routine calls with their shotguns out...  not in the US that I know of, so I don't see the relevance of shotguns to this situation.  Especially saying a shotgun might have de-escalated the situation to a non shooting situation.  No. That's how Citizen Review Boards of police get to make uninformed decisions on LEO shootings.

    I hope you guys would give me a bit of credit for being a cop for 30 years, FBI SWAT trained for 10 years and a trainer for 14 of those years, a firearms trainer for 10.  I'm not blowing smoke out my ass. And I've been in tense situations involving threats before.  If others are qualified say so and I'll honor your experience. I'd like to hear it.

    I've also been shot at and been in firefights (VN) and am aware that even highly trained troops, of which I was one, don't always act instantly to training. 
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,848 Senior Member
    The Japanese don't cater to PR protocol. 

    You can't juggle eggs while handling a shotgun.  Once its in hand, your options are narrowed to it exclusively if you're a lone cop.

    Sounds like the officer was alone. These LEO's are literally walking tight ropes well multi tasking public service functions beyond number. 

    Someone has to juggle the eggs. It can't be abandoned in favor of exclusive tactical response.

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,090 Senior Member
    edited February 20 #104
    Gene L said:
    You all bring up some good points. Lessons: A shotgun slug may have killed him deader and qudker, but the LEO didn't have a shotgun. Nor should he have,  so no lesson there. 
    Agree, he didn’t have one. Don’t agree with the nor should he have part. But, not knowing the nature of the call or the events leading up the the deputy getting out of his car we don’t know what decision he had to make. Deranged man walking around in traffic yelling at folks and acting weird. Yeah, probably no shotgun. Crazy man threatening and attacking people with a big stick.......yeah, probably should have grabbed a longarm before getting out of the car.  If he had one. 

    The BG advanced on the deputy before he raised the stick, and there was some interaction before the recording, so we don't know what was said.  Once the BG attempted to hit the deputy and actually hit his arm, the deputy didn't immediately shoot and the BG didn't stop advancing, even under threat of a drawn gun.  That threat is usually enough to deter someone advancing, but not this guy.
    Something prior to the video starting prompted the deputy to draw his gun assume a flat footed stance and get to close to the threat. Yes....threat. Or perceived threat.  Otherwise, why is he aimed in?

    Appears to be 3 yards distance +/- and at this point the BG is kicking the clothing off his stick and the deputy takes a half step back with a two handed grip. 

    BG reaches down and picks up the roughly 4’ stick and the deputy LETS him. Simply taking another half step back or two. 

    BG assumes a defensive posture and advances on the deputy. 

    Who continues to take meager steps straight back with no offline, change of direction, or great increase of distance. He stays within the “kill zone” (less than 21 foot right in front of his threat). 

    BG closes distance to what appears less than 3 yrds by simply walking forward faster than the deputy walks backwards and the deputy continues his straight line retreat. Making it all too easy for his threat. 

    Deputy, possibly tiring from holding both arms up and in front (yes, it gets tiring and more so when out of shape), drops his support arm and starts swinging it for balance as he walks back. 
    Now, I’m in assumption mode, but that visual change that the officer gave up in his defensive presence appears to have empowered the BG because AS SOON as he drops his left arm, the BG raises his stick


    A really good time to offline if he hadn’t already. Or, engage the threat. But you see the gun aim off to the right as he raises his support arm in defense as he continues walking backwards. Side note: A good time to move the gun to Point 2 and shoot the threat from retention  probably wasn’t taught that, though  
    The stick strikes what appears to be the heal of his hand and break. Sending part of the stick flying over the deputy.


    BG takes another swing at the Deputy who then shuffles a few steps back creating space which would have been nice to have in the first place. Which causes the BG to lower the stick and try to close the distance again. 


    Deputy drops support hand down at his side again, not attempting to defend from further attack. If he was, having the hand already up front would have expedited defense. But no, he swings it back and forth as though for balance. And the BG closes distance. 

    BG raises stick again and deputy shoots for the first time. 


    The BG throws the stick at the deputy who fires his second round. 




    Impact of these first two rounds is unknown. 

    See bold. 

    I’ll continue the rest on another post. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,090 Senior Member
    edited February 20 #105
    Gene L said:
    LEOs are not taught to shoot someone in the pelvis.  
    This statement as an all encompassing generalization is false. YOU, your department, or folks you know may not have been taught. But, I promise others have. Proof positive. 
    This solution is tailoring this particular situation and attempting to make it general, but that's poor training for future shooting situations which are likely to be much different. 
    Every situation is different?  It take 30 years to figure that out?  Which is why there are broad spectrum training concepts that transcend  many situations. Yes, an advancing threat is going to get shots center mass and when advancement continues, alternate POA are engaged. That’s a pretty standard concept for many situations. Target assessment and reaction is kinda par for the course. 
     Pelvis shooting  is less effective for stopping a fight than shooting a failure to stop drill in the head.  
    I agree. But, it’s a bigger target and on a physically advancing and close threat, an easier target. Dropping the threat is a good step to stopping the threat or at least limiting his mobility. Raising the gun to head level on a close proxy threat can lead to your gun being grabbed. Less chance aiming lower (especially from retention position). 
    But as I said before the guy was dead in the first couple of rounds, he just didn't know it.
    This is somewhat of a stupid comment. I know it was figurative. But, the BG assuredly was NOT dead after the first two rounds. He kept advancing and fortunately had no other weapons available or he sure would have had time to use one. If the deputy had time to fire more rounds, the BG had time to do something as well. Had he possessed another weapon. Not “knowing he was dead” has nothing to do with his continued actions of advancement. 
      I'm not sure a failure drill would have ended it much quicker, although that's the drill.  
    Another seemingly ignorant statement and a surprising one from a proclaimed trainer of firearms and tactics. Yes, a central nervous system or support structure hit would most likely have stopped or dropped the BG much faster than continued shots to the thoracic cavity. It’s the nervous system. Disrupt and things stop working.  The support system is like Jenga. Remove the block and the tower falls.  
    One of the reasons behind the drill is in case someone is wearing body armor, not close up advancing like this. 
    Another partial falsehood. Yes, the armor concept was one basis. But also the assessment that “hey.......what I’m doing isn’t giving me the desired results fast enough so let’s move on to something that might”.  And there are several options. Proximity doesn’t matter. Nothing says because a guy is X distance I can only shoot him in Y.
     This is a highly unusual situation and the usual responses aren't necessarily the right answer..
    Uh, the skills are taught for EXACTLY this type of situation!  Offline. Failure drills. Creating space. Etc. 
    The answers are right. You just wont accept them. 

    There is no reason to believe if the deputy had been a slim body builder the outcome would have been any different.  
    There is absolute reason to believe that a more physically fit individual would have been faster and more agile. It’s science. Agility and the ability to out maneuver his adversary very likely would have led to a different outcome. 
    Likewise, he defended himself from a strike with his left hand and had reason to believe he might have to do so again, so a one hand grip is perfectly reasonable.
    See the above statement on the other post regarding having his hands swinging at his side and not in a defensive position. 

    Clearly, the deputy was in panic mode, which is understandable if you have a large BG advancing on you from 3 feet away and not reacting to CoM rounds. Training can mitigate panic somewhat, but never eliminate it unless your shooting a lot to defend your life. 
    Training involves repetition. Or it should. Your brain learns how to react in certain situations. If A then B. If B then C. Relying on quarterly or annual training to save the day results in what we are discussing. It obviously isn’t enough. Yes, the deputy lived. But, would have been nice to have not been hit or even had to shoot. Had he been better trained/prepared. 
    He fired 12 rounds in about 4-5 seconds, one handed and apparently hit most of them CoM.  
    5.3ish seconds first to last (roughly)
    i'm not sure he would have had time to adjust his aiming point to the head in such a short time period...especially with the guy still advancing on him. 
    It’s called training standards. Drills. 5 seconds is an ETERNITY to engage multiple locations or even multiple targets!  One of our drills/standards is two Center A and one Head A on two targets from the draw in 3 seconds @ 5/7/10yrds. The deputy was already drawn!  And we do it standing, moving forward, moving backwards. We aren’t born with it. We train. 
    He instinctively continued to shoot for the largest target.  Failure drills in my agency are aimed at 7 yards, and you get aiming time, so even if the deputy had been trained in failure drills, likely he wouldn't have had time to follow the training.
    See above. 

    Lessons learned?  If a civilian, like most of us are now, the lesson is to not get involved in a confrontation with a guy armed with a stick and a lack of fear of getting shot.  If attacked by same, do what it takes to survive.
    Everything I’ve discussed applies to uniformed or not. 

    For LEOs, as a former trainer, including a firearms instructor, I see a few things that COULD have been done differently, but most of what I see is Monday Morning QBing and not under the stress of a large guy coming toward me up close who isn't responding to being shot in the chest.  It turned out well as it could have, and as they say in the Airforce, any landing you walk away from is a successful landing.
    Anything I say here will be construed as an insult. 
    See bold. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,090 Senior Member
    edited February 20 #106
    Gene L said:


    I hope you guys would give me a bit of credit for being a cop for 30 years, FBI SWAT trained for 10 years and a trainer for 14 of those years, a firearms trainer for 10.  I'm not blowing smoke out my ass. And I've been in tense situations involving threats before.  If others are qualified say so and I'll honor your experience. I'd like to hear it.

    I've also been shot at and been in firefights (VN) and am aware that even highly trained troops, of which I was one, don't always act instantly to training. 
    You ain’t the only rooster in the hen house. 
    I sell a mean shoe. 

    I appreciate your service and respect your experience. But, I think some of your training/teaching is in various ways wrong/antiquated/partial/narrow minded. One or all of the above. 

    Time changes/improves/expounds upon tactics and methods. 

    We learn from experience(s) and adapt to better handle them. Making the same mistake twice or after someone else made it is bad practice. 

    All too often, LE departments perpetuate ignorant and outdated training methods and practices. I spend my fair share of time trying to correct and/or update training methods, tactics, applications, and mentalities. Often like pulling teeth. 
    “Well, we’ve always done it this way.”
    ”Yeah, you’ve always done it wrong.  Let’s fix that.”

    Your unwillingness to change, accept change, or admit that your methods and mentality are/were wrong...........and this is going to be loving and respectfully harsh.......shows that it was a good time for you to retire and hopefully allow your department to grow and improve. When instructors can’t grow......neither can their students. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,090 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    You guys illustrate why civilians should NEVER determine LE training.  Linefinder, you would never bring a shotgun to a citizen interaction if you were a cop.  That's ridiculous and no solution to a cop problem.  Most know better.
    Japanese didn't seem to have a problem with it. And neither did we. 
    Mike

    I agree that you can’t compare another countries LE practices to our countries policies and standards. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,755 Senior Member
    I think the difference between @Gene L s and @Zee s training shows the evolution of society and the training response to it.  Gene is I would guess three generations ahead of Zee in LEO training, tactics, and responses.  When Gene was in uniform very few people would back talk let alone attack an officer.
    Of course there have always been a few crazy/stupid ones that would.  It used to be that the uniform, badge, and gun commanded respect and in most cases got it.  Fast forward a few years and the F O Pig mentality began to set in.  People made comments under their breath and talked big with friends or in a group, but rarely more than a FU when told something by an officer.
    The next generation has been taught hate for officers, told they have no authority over you and have no problem attacking an officer.   Today an Officer may be sitting in his car eating a ham sandwich and because he/she is wearing a uniform be attacked or shot.  When they pull someone over for a traffic offence when they ask for drivers license and insurance card they are met with resistance. And often taunted in an attempt to get them to say/do something that can be Youtubes as being bad.
    Why people want to not follow instructions, I am unsure.  I see it with our Military today also.  everyone wants to challenge everything and demand respect without showing it.

    These two members of the same team but different generations are perfect examples of how society has changed and the type/level of training and response that those in uniform has had to evolve to meet the challenge.

    Thank You both for what you did/do

    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • X104RFASTX104RFAST Posts: 23 New Member
    Scary video. I always assumed a 9mm mag dump is sufficient to stop a Zombie threat. The look on the BGs face says it all. 

  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,803 Senior Member
    Some reiteration of what I brought up back in post #57:

    Maybe you've seen the old pre-meme meme called "rules of gunfighting".  Among the leading rules are "Bring a gun" and "Bring all of your friends that have guns". 

    In properly thinking that out in terms of how law enforcement operates:  cops are constantly placed in situations where their initial actions are entirely reactive to what the other guy did first.  In administrative conditions where cops are required to operate alone, the single officer is likely to be the sole focus of an attack, which limits his/her response options greatly.

    In this instance, the cop has to approach with intent to cool down and apprehend a 5150 suspect.  You need free hands for that, so bringing a long gun is not really an option, and you have to make the decision of what to fill your hands with and when.

    Bringing your friends opens up the choices immensely:  Bob talks to the guy; Fred's on Taser or beanbag detail, Joe and George move in to tackle and subdue, Katie is standing by to flatten him with a shotgun or rifle if it really goes south, and Ralph is hanging back on the radio to dispatch or other units to achieve better control of the scene.  That's the ideal, and Podunk agencies might not be able to muster that kind of manpower, but PAIRS of officers at the very least can make a huge difference in whether or not someone needs to get shot.  
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,803 Senior Member
    Now as to shotguns:  I'm a fan of deploying slugs and buck; one style in the gun and the other standing by in the side saddle.

    For MOST of what law enforcement gets to deal with (short range encounters like the situation above).  I REALLY like buckshot.  The modern stuff (i.e. Federal's Flight Control) patterns very tightly and can easily keep nine 00 pellets on a human silhouette out to 25 yards.  Under 15 yards, you can cover all nine with the span of your hand.  Those nine .33 caliber pellets add up to 2.97 INCHES of wound-track diameter, and they spread it out to possibly rupture multiple "off switches" in the body.  That is probably the fastest means of stopping the kind of assault seen in this vid that law enforcement has.  The short range makes it kind of a one-trick pony, but for the bulk of the work that needs doing, it's a VERY GOOD trick.

    The slug is the best tool for dealing with light barricades - auto glass, auto sheet metal, light indoor and outdoor structures, etc...  Pretty good for 75 yards before you have to think about trajectory.  Not a bad choice if you decide to pick one load because your folks aren't really comfortable changing round types on the fly.  It is, after all, starting out at .73 caliber and will probably pancake out to 1.25 inches or so - - it WILL leave a mark.

    The 5.56mm patrol rifles give advantages of capacity, light armor penetration, range, and precision, but the individual rounds are probably not a whole lot more effective than a pistol in terms of the super-rapid incapacitation you want for a guy like this.  At the end of the day, the guy will be equally dead or hospitalized - the question is one of how much time he has BEFORE the end of the day.

    But as in my last post, all that is hard to deploy in that situation if you're out there solo.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • BamaakIIBamaakII Posts: 408 Member
    edited February 20 #112
    I think age and stature played a role in the result here.  I would like to think that a 6'3" inch 250 lb cop with hands on training may have laid the guy out instead of shooting him.  The stick was not really lethal and yes I don't know what else the guy may have had on his person, but a more physically able cop may have ended it differently, JMO.

    Either way, makes me question my choice to carry 9mm.  I think I would have to a head shot after two or three rounds.  I've told the story about my friends cop daughter who shot a thickly muscled guy twice CM and he stayed in the fight.  Took a head shot to put him down.  And that was a .45acp.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 22,395 Senior Member
    Diver43 pretty much said what I came on here to post....
    What I think we're seeing is the difference in "Old School" vs "New School"
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,090 Senior Member

    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,392 Senior Member
    The Mall Ninja speaks.  Thanks for your analysis for my stupid comments. It would be doubly informative if you posted your qualifications to say so.

    The problem with carrying a shotgun as a primary weapon is if you have to fight an offender.  Wrestle him is impossible with a gun on your shoulder or in your hand.  Plus, the US is not a third world company where cops carry shoulder weapons as primary arms.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,090 Senior Member
    edited February 20 #116
    You prove my point.  I rest my case. 

    Enjoy your retirement. 🍻
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,392 Senior Member
    edited February 20 #117
    .I'm glad I proved your point.  You seemed to have problems proving it yourself.  Honestly, Zee, if you have had time in the trenches, I respect that.  If not, then your opinion isn't as valuable as you perhaps think it is.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,090 Senior Member
    edited February 20 #118
    A sling is an awesome and I’d say necessary tool when utilizing a longarm (shotgun or rifle). 
    I have gone hands on with individuals any number of times while still wearing a longarm. Simply cinch the sling tight to the body (front or back) and get all touchy feely. Again, it’s a training task. But, it works. 

    Here is my preferred sling and how to use it. 

    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,090 Senior Member
    edited February 20 #119
    :thismessageselfdestrucred:
    😎
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,392 Senior Member
    edited February 20 #120
    Sometimes, you've got to wear the shoes to see what you're selling.  Otherwise, you remain only in the company of other shoe salesmen.  With small peckers.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,090 Senior Member
    edited February 20 #121
    I wear them every day and they fit nicely. 👍🏻👍🏻
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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