Home Main Category General Firearms

Ultra-Light amm

Diver43Diver43 Senior MemberPosts: 11,384 Senior Member
When I picked up my P365, I stopped in a gun shop a few building down the road looking for a holster.
They didn't have anything that interested me, but the guy asked if I needed ammo.  I thought and said "you have 9mm ammo"?  What they had was this super light Liberty ammo.  Handed me a box of 20 that felt like it only had a few rounds in.  Said it was made for higher capacity guns so they would not be so heavy to carry.
I thought  GIMMICK, but I also bought some of the Z-max ammo (zombi) and it actually performed well.

From their website:   The projectiles used in the Ultra-Light ammo are Liberty Ammunition’s Civil Defense monolithic nickel-plated bullets that weigh 50 grains. These light-for-caliber bullets are launched at an advertised muzzle velocity of 2,000 fps and have a muzzle energy of 450 ft-lb. According to Liberty Ammunition, “Compared to other top self-defense rounds, the 9mm Ultra-Lights have 32 to 38% less felt recoil, 65 to 75% more velocity, 25 to 30% more kinetic energy“.

It really is light, but is it any good?  Just a gimmick?   Oh yea, its expensive too.  $47.99 for 20 rounds.
Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5

Replies

  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,304 Senior Member
    If you don't have any other Defensive loads, I'd would buy them. If you have other choices then No.
    With a PF of 100, it's up their with an angry 380 in the momentum department. Yes, it's fast and it would work but I'd expect to use multiple shots to get the job done. Since that's what you can expect from most other ammo types this one seems kinda pricey for what you get. Less recoil, faster follow ups, lighter weight and no excessive penetration all seem good if these are important to you.
    I found this video on YouTube, pretty informative.


    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,503 Senior Member
    Well. . .they're going for the 1980's Glaser Safety Slug sales points:

    "Reduced risk of overpenetration" - at an increased risk of not penetrating to the things you need to hit to stop the fight.  If the reality is that about 70% of rounds fired in deadly force engagements miss and become hazards to passerby before they pass through ANYTHING, is this really putting the emphasis in the right place?

    "Projectile explodes/fragments/multiple wound channels" - see "penetration" above.  It's a light bullet without much momentum to begin with, and it's breaking up into things that are lighter with even LESS momentum.

    "More kinetic energy / less recoil" - ummmmm. . .Newton's Third Law anyone?  Your target will not be knocked off its feet by the impact anymore than you will be knocked off yours by the recoil of your firearm.

    "AMAZING hydrostatic shock effects" - well. . .maybe.  The FBI research serving as the current "Bible" for this stuff suggests that impact velocities of less than about 2000 fps do not displace most tissues quickly enough to exceed their limits of elasticity.  This means no permanent tearing beyond the physical diameter of the bullet.  At a muzzle velocity of 2000 fps this is starting out right at the bottom limit of this theory. We KNOW the severing vital arteries and nerve bundles will produce consistent results, but theories of shock-overload to the nervous system aren't so solidly dependable.

    So, basically, it's a varmint round that trades depth of penetration for a wider temporary cavity that looks really impressive in high-speed sales photos, that MIGHT pull off a slightly wider functional permanent cavity.  Current duty round design doctrine revolves around: accuracy first; gel penetration to a minimum of 12" second; and worry about diameter as a distant third priority ONLY after the first two concerns are met.  This round is following in the design footsteps of the stuff that was failing 35-40 years ago, giving people the heebie-jeebies about the 9mm's effectiveness, and ultimately gave us that doctrine about 30 years ago.

    Maybe they have a new twist on it, but sounds like the same old song here - possibly great on a pure frontal shot, but iffy if angles and intervening tissues like upper arms get involved.  None for me thanks.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,313 Senior Member
    The concept is not new. An outfit called Super-Vel pioneered light weight high speed projectile ammo for SD some years back. They disappeared only to reappear recently. Some has better reputations than others.

    E=MC2
     M stands for mass. Its the first ingredient in the recipie. On the other hand speed kills. I read somewhere recently that its easier to get more impact energy with speed than weight.

    Last I saw. Federal 115gr +p+ ammo loaded for LEO use had the best record of actual success on the street. Maybe thats no longer the case, but its a good standard for comparison.


  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,673 Senior Member
    edited April 4 #5
    The concept is not new. An outfit called Super-Vel pioneered light weight high speed projectile ammo for SD some years back. They disappeared only to reappear recently. Some has better reputations than others.

    E=MC2
     M stands for mass. Its the first ingredient in the recipie. On the other hand speed kills. I read somewhere recently that its easier to get more impact energy with speed than weight.

    Last I saw. Federal 115gr +p+ ammo loaded for LEO use had the best record of actual success on the street. Maybe thats no longer the case, but its a good standard for comparison.


    That's because in the formula you just posted, velocity (the "C") is squared.

    2x2=4, but 3x3=9 So imagine that's your velocity. By increasing the speed 1, you added a total of 5 more to the equation.

    Concerning the OP, Nope, nopity nope, nope.
    No desire to depend on that ammo to do what I need done in a SD shooting.
    I rank it right along side the RIP ammo and other "snake oil"
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,304 Senior Member
    Diver43 said:
    ....
    Said it was made for higher capacity guns so they would not be so heavy to carry.
    [Really? That's their primary concern?]
    I thought  GIMMICK, but I also bought some of the Z-max ammo (zombi) and it actually performed well.
    [You're better off with the Zombie ammo, which is just Hornady's Critical Defense line with a green polymer tip instead of a red one.]

    From their website:   The projectiles used in the Ultra-Light ammo are Liberty Ammunition’s Civil Defense monolithic nickel-plated bullets that weigh 50 grains. These light-for-caliber bullets are launched at an advertised muzzle velocity of 2,000 fps and have a muzzle energy of 450 ft-lb. According to Liberty Ammunition, “Compared to other top self-defense rounds, the 9mm Ultra-Lights have 32 to 38% less felt recoil, 65 to 75% more velocity, 25 to 30% more kinetic energy“.

    It really is light, but is it any good?  Just a gimmick?   Oh yea, its expensive too.  $47.99 for 20 rounds.

    They say, "Compared to other top self-defense rounds,..."
    Let's do a quick comparison to Federal HST.

    According to the video, the Liberty averaged about 1900 fps (feet per second) which gives us about 400 ft-lbs of KE. Compare that to the HST at 365 ft-lbs or 9.6% increase. Not too impressive.
    More velocity, sure but the video clocked the Liberty at about 1900 from a 4" barrel G19 so an increase of about 73% ✓
    Now the one that annoyed me the most. The claim of 32-38 percent less felt recoil.
    How the heck do they know what I feel?!
    "Felt" the way they use it above is the past tense of Feel. How do they know, much less quantify, what I'm feeling. Minus points for bad english 🤣🤣🤣
    Compared to mechanical recoil then it's roughly about 42% less when compared to the 124 grain HST above at 1150 fps✓
    Like I said earlier, if you don't have any Defensive ammo (empty gun) then I would buy them. If you have other options then,  No.
    These rounds remind me of the Air Marshall loads that were floating around at one time. Mission specific if that's what the mission calls for. Apply enough rounds on target and you'll, most likely, get the job done.
    I have other options, so I'll use those.

    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,384 Senior Member
    I sure didn't purchase any.  But, the guy was a good salesman.  He handed me a Glock 19 with a full magazine and it certainly cut the carry weight of the gun.  I have been carrying the new Sig with 10 plus 1 and when I handed it to the wife her first comment was "it sure is heavy for its size"  
    As much stuff as she has in her purse along with her SW 431 PD, the difference in bullets will make no difference.  Most times that I carry, I am wearing shorts and an untucked shirt. The little Sig covers easily.  I will continue to keep mine loaded with Hornady 147gr eXTP
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,673 Senior Member
    97gr difference x16 (15+1 mag) = 1,552gr difference in total bullet weight. or 3.54oz Some of which is PROBABLY offset by a heavier powder charge with that lighter bullet.

    I'll pack the extra few ounces for a load a trust
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,867 Senior Member
    I have tried that Liberty stuff-----I was not thrilled with performance.

    I remember catching merd about it from some forum heavies. I guess they could not realize
    I got it just for fun shooting.

    It  was 45 long cold.
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,304 Senior Member
    edited April 5 #10

    E=MC2
     M stands for mass. Its the first ingredient in the recipie. On the other hand speed kills. I read somewhere recently that its easier to get more impact energy with speed than weight.

    ...
    It's simply a matter of how the equation is written and what it's measuring (motion). Mass without movement has Zero Kinetic Energy (KE) but it could have Potential Energy (PE) depending on it's location, position or status. There's a separate way to measure PE.
    That's why it's a good idea to write the equation as
    From the equation you can clearly see it favors velocity.
    Calling it Kinetic Energy reminds everyone what form of energy you're measuring.

    Einstein's equation tells us about the energy bound up in matter (E=mc^2) the little ^ "hat" also called a circumflex accent or Caret tells everyone it's a square term. Rewriting E=mc^2 as m=E/c^2 is an easy way to visualize that a tiny amount of matter contains huge amounts of energy.

    If you want to see how the KE equation came about I can write that on here also. It's actually pretty simple.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,961 Senior Member
    I say buy it and test it in water jugs. I’ll send you some 124/147gr ammo to compare to to. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,384 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    I say buy it and test it in water jugs. I’ll send you some 124/147gr ammo to compare to to. .
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,384 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    I say buy it and test it in water jugs. I’ll send you some 124/147gr ammo to compare to to. 
    Wish I could.  I can't wait to move out of south Florida.  The ranges here will not allow me to do that.  The one place I could, maybe is down in the Redlands, when its open.  The private property i used to be able to shoot on was sold and now is a small housing development 


    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,313 Senior Member
    Spk said:

    E=MC2
     M stands for mass. Its the first ingredient in the recipie. On the other hand speed kills. I read somewhere recently that its easier to get more impact energy with speed than weight.

    ...
    It's simply a matter of how the equation is written and what it's measuring (motion). Mass without movement has Zero Kinetic Energy (KE) but it could have Potential Energy (PE) depending on it's location, position or status. There's a separate way to measure PE.
    That's why it's a good idea to write the equation as
    From the equation you can clearly see it favors velocity.
    Calling it Kinetic Energy reminds everyone what form of energy you're measuring.

    Einstein's equation tells us about the energy bound up in matter (E=mc^2) the little ^ "hat" also called a circumflex accent or Caret tells everyone it's a square term. Rewriting E=mc^2 as m=E/c^2 is an easy way to visualize that a tiny amount of matter contains huge amounts of energy.

    If you want to see how the KE equation came about I can write that on here also. It's actually pretty simple.
    That's actually pretty good stuff. Physics and math are part of what we're trying to understand. I don't do well at either, but I keep trying. 
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,503 Senior Member
    Diver43 said:
    I sure didn't purchase any.  But, the guy was a good salesman.  He handed me a Glock 19 with a full magazine and it certainly cut the carry weight of the gun.  
    I thought the Glock 19 WAS saving weight. ('Merica! ;) )


    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,961 Senior Member
    Diver43 said:
    Zee said:
    I say buy it and test it in water jugs. I’ll send you some 124/147gr ammo to compare to to. 
    Wish I could.  I can't wait to move out of south Florida.  The ranges here will not allow me to do that.  The one place I could, maybe is down in the Redlands, when its open.  The private property i used to be able to shoot on was sold and now is a small housing development 


    😢
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,384 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Diver43 said:
    Zee said:
    I say buy it and test it in water jugs. I’ll send you some 124/147gr ammo to compare to to. 
    Wish I could.  I can't wait to move out of south Florida.  The ranges here will not allow me to do that.  The one place I could, maybe is down in the Redlands, when its open.  The private property i used to be able to shoot on was sold and now is a small housing development 


    😢
    Zee said:
    Diver43 said:
    Zee said:
    I say buy it and test it in water jugs. I’ll send you some 124/147gr ammo to compare to to. 
    Wish I could.  I can't wait to move out of south Florida.  The ranges here will not allow me to do that.  The one place I could, maybe is down in the Redlands, when its open.  The private property i used to be able to shoot on was sold and now is a small housing development 


    😢
    Covid delayed us a little, but we are outta here late this year or next.  Enough is enough

    I have no doubt that ammo will go bang.  It is light to carry, but will it do what its supposed to?  doubt it.
    I think shooting into a ham would prove more than water for something like this.  Besides, not willing to spend a Grant just to see.  Once i move and can shoot properly i might
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,992 Senior Member
    6 of this or 1/2 a dozen of that...  Just make sure it reliably cycles your gun, and you don't get stove pipes.  Having said that, speed definitely penetrates, just look at the Tokarev or the FN 5.7.  It would be interesting to gel test that round with some hard wax in the hollow point.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,304 Senior Member
    NN said:
    I have tried that Liberty stuff-----I was not thrilled with performance.

    I remember catching merd about it from some forum heavies. I guess they could not realize
    I got it just for fun shooting.

    It  was 45 long cold.
    Since you've actually used the stuff. What did you find underwhelming? What did you shoot with them?
    Just curious because I'm not about to fork out $50 bucks just to try them.

    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,961 Senior Member
    While I’m fond of saying, “Speed Kills”, that statement comes with parameters.

    There has to be enough balance between speed and mass to get where you want to go.  
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,304 Senior Member
    edited April 5 #21
    Zee said:
    While I’m fond of saying, “Speed Kills”, that statement comes with parameters.

    There has to be enough balance between speed and mass to get where you want to go.  
    Agreed.

    Another thing I hear a lot about is the energy numbers. You're fond of saying Speed Kills -- I'm of saying, The Bullet Does The Work. If your bullet isn't up to the task, I don't care too much what your energy numbers say.
    Energy describes the ability to do work (change in state that's possible). Work is the change that actually happens. So what you do with the energy you have is more important than how much you have. Wasted Energy does no useful, productive Work.
    So yeah, there has to be a balance.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,076 Senior Member
    I'm a traditionalist when it comes to bullets.  I believe in sticking with the overwhelming majority of experience.  The R.I.P. ammo is/was made a few miles down the road from me.  Once back when they came out one of the people associated with the round came to a local gun store while I was there.  He was wearing bloused trousers, military boots, and wearing a pistol on his side.  That told me a lot about the ammo.  The bullet was only about 60 gr. IIRC.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
Sign In or Register to comment.
Magazine Cover

GET THE MAGAZINE Subscribe & Save

Temporary Price Reduction

SUBSCRIBE NOW

Give a Gift   |   Subscriber Services

PREVIEW THIS MONTH'S ISSUE

GET THE NEWSLETTER Join the List and Never Miss a Thing.

Get the top Guns & Ammo stories delivered right to your inbox every week.

Advertisement