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Instinctive shooting

Gene LGene L Senior MemberPosts: 12,070 Senior Member
I know it's not a teaching technique (is it?) but I think it should be taught for close range, like 7 yards or so.  In our (GA) qualification it's kinda taught at 3 yards, but just about every shooter uses that range and time to improve their score.

Jelly Brice shot without aiming, I've read, and did so very well.  He would crouch and shoot from about thigh level.  We can't all be Jelly Brice, but for strictly protection it might be helpful to emphasize quick, unaimed but directed shooting up close.  I realize trainers have to train to the lowest level of experience in say, a Basic Firearms course where you don't get to cherry pick your students.
Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
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Replies

  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,288 Senior Member
    They used to train some LEOs for that. There's content on youtube.

    I read that Jelly Bryce could see the bullets in flight. The author of that piece compared his unique abilities to that of a modern MLB star hitter. He actually won a pistol shooting contest for the OK City PD with an old smooth bore revolver to gain acceptance on the department.

    I've only tried it a couple times. I have a deficient tendency to shoot high.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,931 Senior Member
    We are responsible for every round we launch. Best to know exactly where that round is going. Missing could have consequences. 

    About the only index shooting I do is inside 3 yards and that’s for the purpose of weapon retention while still engaging the close proximity threat. Outside of grabbing distance. No. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,931 Senior Member
    They used to train some LEOs for that. There's content on youtube.

    I read that Jelly Bryce could see the bullets in flight. The author of that piece compared his unique abilities to that of a modern MLB star hitter. He actually won a pistol shooting contest for the OK City PD with an old smooth bore revolver to gain acceptance on the department.

    I've only tried it a couple times. I have a deficient tendency to shoot high.
    You can see handgun Bullets in flight if the lighting is right. I see them quite often on an outdoor range when the sun reflects off them in flight. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,288 Senior Member
    I've seen the ball from my muzzleloader a few times. My eye sight is compromised. I believe some could and or can see the bullets flight consistently. Bryce used to draw and fire on thrown coins, hitting them deliberately off center to be used as watch fobs.
  • waipapa13waipapa13 Senior Member Posts: 860 Senior Member
    If anyone is keen it's not that hard to find Fairbairn and Sykes' old book Shooting to Live.
    Much of what they were teaching is instinctive shooting based on their experiences as policemen in the International settlement in Shanghai c.1910's-30's, usually up close and from the holster.
    It's obviously dated but I think it has some merit.

    Full disclosure, I was trying out there techniques with a Crosman co2 revolver  :D
  • AlleyCatAlleyCat Posts: 471 Member
    waipapa13 said:
    If anyone is keen it's not that hard to find Fairbairn and Sykes' old book Shooting to Live.
    Much of what they were teaching is instinctive shooting based on their experiences as policemen in the International settlement in Shanghai c.1910's-30's, usually up close and from the holster.
    It's obviously dated but I think it has some merit.

    Full disclosure, I was trying out there techniques with a Crosman co2 revolver  :D

    And for the Ladies;



  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,289 Senior Member
    Here's a fun video to watch.
    It shows what's possible but not necessarily what's realistic, but from the video, it is possible.
    I wish I had the time and place to shoot more, dang.

    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,931 Senior Member
    edited April 10 #9
    You know they use special rounds for that, right?  It’s not a single projectile like a normal bullet. 
    If I’m not mistaken. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,931 Senior Member
    I had to look it up. It’s the unburnt powder of special made blank rounds that break the balloons. Basically. A “shotgun” pattern. 


    No detraction from their amazing draw and orientation ability. But, it ain’t putting a single bullet through a specific target. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,931 Senior Member
    I’m not going to be popular with my opinion. But, I feel it’s an irresponsible stunt when used in a self defense situation beyond about 3 yards-ish. It requires more skill and practice to be a reliable tactic beyond that distance than actually aiming the gun. 

    And as mentioned before, the cost of a mistake..........
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,289 Senior Member
    Yeah, it's a bit of a shotgun effect like they do in CMSA but you still have to shoot basically in the general direction or you can miss. Like I said, maybe it's not too realistic but if he had real loads in there and only had to hit minute of torso at close range, I think he could.
    Again, it's still a fun video.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,931 Senior Member
    edited April 10 #13
    We live in a different day and age of liability and public opinion than when this was common practice. 

    And the crowded populace is a far cry from the border desert or battle ground of yesteryear. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,379 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    I’m not going to be popular with my opinion. But, I feel it’s an irresponsible stunt when used in a self defense situation beyond about 3 yards-ish. It requires more skill and practice to be a reliable tactic beyond that distance than actually aiming the gun. 

    And as mentioned before, the cost of a mistake..........
    Don't think that anyone that actually shoots will find your position unpopular
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,288 Senior Member
    I think the couple videos I watched were hip shooting when the muzzle clears the holster at arms reach distance. Some of it was longer range, but not much longer. They were also old videos. Certainly dated.

    The idea was to practice enough that at least in training, hits were assured. The scenario being the avoidance of being over run and maybe disarmed in a struggle.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,499 Senior Member
    I'm with Zee on this one.

    There's close contact shooting that a lot of entities will train for - where you're so close that extending the pistol to reference sights is just asking to get it taken away from you.  This is one-yard stuff.  Beyond three - increasingly sketchy.

    And again, responsibility for every round we launch.  While there is the lowest common denominator factor to consider, I see the main problem here as being one of available resources to train in a pretty advanced skill.  Ammo costs money, as does the time of pulling an officer off their primary task to train/practice/qualify/whatever you want to call it. 

    There are agencies out there that only require a shoot once or twice a year.  You might get quarterly or bimonthly here and there, but the common thread is that you get 30-50 rounds not nearly often enough, and you have to figure out how to make the best use of them.  For some, it's hard enough to shoot proficiently WITH visual references on the sights.

    And not to make this about equipment here, but I do believe that duty pistol design has sacrificed much of the excellent ergonomics of yesteryear (1911, Colt Model M, Luger, K-frame Smith) in the interest of too-fat grip frames that hold lots of bullets.  We've not only gotten away from teaching one-handed shooting, we've gotten away from designing handguns to be primarily shot that way.  It wasn't ALL good - the sights back then often sucked - but you could often find something designed for the human hand first and appeasing lawyers with "safety" features or reducing the fears of the empty-gun-obsessed second.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,289 Senior Member
    Speaking of stunts, here's another guy that's fun to watch, Bob Munden. I only wish I had the time and place to practice stuff like this. But he's fun to watch.


    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • waipapa13waipapa13 Senior Member Posts: 860 Senior Member
    edited April 11 #18
    Zee said:
    We live in a different day and age of liability and public opinion than when this was common practice. 

    Iirc, Bill Jordan favoured an K-frame S&W, if I have, then holy smokes thats a big paw.
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,953 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    They used to train some LEOs for that. There's content on youtube.

    I read that Jelly Bryce could see the bullets in flight. The author of that piece compared his unique abilities to that of a modern MLB star hitter. He actually won a pistol shooting contest for the OK City PD with an old smooth bore revolver to gain acceptance on the department.

    I've only tried it a couple times. I have a deficient tendency to shoot high.
    You can see handgun Bullets in flight if the lighting is right. I see them quite often on an outdoor range when the sun reflects off them in flight. 
    I see it all the time at the range. Our range faces south. Early in the morning the sun reflects off the bullets and makes them easy to see in flight. I’ve also loaded 45 Colt to around 600fps and could see those in flight. Big chunks of lead going slow...

    I’m also with Zee on the subject. We use index at arms length and “flash sight picture” from about 3 yards to around 5 yards. Basically getting the front sight and making sure the rear sight is there in a split second while firing. Outside of that, it’s aimed fire and as distance increases, so does time. 

    When using index shooting, the idea is “get the heck off me” while creating distance, continuing through the draw while moving. 
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,070 Senior Member
    You've got to practice shooting however you shoot.  When I first went to the academy, we were taught one handed shooting holding the gun close to the body at close range IIRC, but my memory may not be accurate.  That was a long time ago.  The FBI taught the course.  We also shot at 50 yards, only three rounds or so.

    There's room for all kinds of shooting if you practice enough so it becomes an instinct.  If your instinct provides you for acquiring a sight alignment, great.  Just aware, however, that lining up your sights is going to cost you some time, however minute and however instinctive.


    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,559 Senior Member
    waipapa13 said:
    Zee said:
    We live in a different day and age of liability and public opinion than when this was common practice. 

    Iirc, Bill Jordan favoured an K-frame S&W, if I have, then holy smokes thats a big paw.
    You are correct.  His grips were huge, covering the backstrap of the revolver to fit his big mitts.  Even on an N-frame.  Herret's offers repros.  Note you have to request an open backstrap.

    http://www.herrettstocks.com/jordontp.htm

    One needs to remember that Jordan and Bryce had a few things going for them.
    1.  Innate ability.  Gave them a head start, if you wil.
    2.  They were able to burn up a ton of ammo practicing.  This is costly both monetarily and in terms of time. Probably a good thing they were LE and had access to resources not available to most.  

    Bryce and Jordan also used sights, given the right conditions.  But they were also LEOs in a different era.  People thought differently of them, and the people they were tasked with dealing with.  
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,595 Senior Member
    Aim the gun/Use your sights
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,070 Senior Member
    If you have the time, use your sights.  But you can train around that at typical gunfight range.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,595 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    If you have the time, use your sights.  But you can train around that at typical gunfight range.

    What are you considering "typical gunfight range?"
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,070 Senior Member
    Three to five yards.  Defensive gunfight range. Bad breath range.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,288 Senior Member
    In the interest of clarity. I think this video is advocating the debated technique discussed in this thread.

    I enjoy watching and reading about the old school stuff. But in my case its all academic.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,931 Senior Member
    While that is a cool historical aspect video, I am exceptionally glad that those drawing and aiming techniques are no longer typically taught/employed. They are slow and antiquated in some aspects. I don’t know if it was for training purposes, but that was a snail pace draw!!  So much waisted movement. 
    To each their own, there is a reason we make fun of an “FBI Draw”. That sweeping motion is laughable these days where economy of motion prevails. 
    No thanks, I’m faster and more accurate with sights outside 3ish yards. 

    Good video on how not to draw, though. 😁
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,070 Senior Member
    That FBI course was the one I had back when I went to the Academy in 71 or so, which I think I've said before.  Amusingly, you will see on the draw that the shooter brings his drawing hand up in front of his belly before sweeping back.  This was the FBI method, and was taught under the assumption that the drawing hand had to sweep a jacket out of the way to get to the gun.  Even when the shooter isn't wearing a jacket he still follows the rule because they had to teach that way since most FBI agents would be wearing jackets.

    When I was at Athens PD in 86 or so, we had annually a pro trainer come down to teach us different ways of SD shooting.  At very up close level, he taught us to step backward, draw, grip with two hands and shoot.  Being iconoclastic as I am, I disagreed with that and advocated drawing and shooting as fast as possible w/out stepping backward.  My method worked in a very short period of time I could shoot 5 rounds into a pepper popper until it fell; that's all I could do shooting as fast as I could.  I didn't think stepping back was good because you could trip and lose balance, and gripping the gun with two hands simply wasn't necessary at point blank range. And it took time.

    While I demonstrated I could put hits on the target with a 1911, I don't know that all others could do it, although training could improve the hit ability.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,931 Senior Member
    In their attempt to prove the instinctive shooting is faster, the instinctive shooter on the right starts his draw before the shooter on the left. Moves faster, and is therefore in the lead the entire time. 









    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,070 Senior Member
    How to win in a walk-down shoot against another shooter is to take a first giant step.  This trick works as it will cause the other shooter to think about something else which unless he's a cool shooter he will try to catch up.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,559 Senior Member
    The FBI Crouch, as exemplified in the videos and the stills that Zee posted, was a technique Bryce developed so that if an FBI agent was hit, he'd fall forward and still be able to return fire.  
    Overkill is underrated.
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