This whole 'dog' thing reminds me of a personal incident.
I went hiking on an unfamiliar NF trail several years ago. At the end of my excursion on my way back to my truck, I spotted another hiker with a dog some distance off through the woods. The dog was a full grown Rottweiler, and not on a leash. Im generally not afraid of dogs, but Im quite leery of that type. I had a revolver holstered, and unsnapped the retention, just in case. I was thinking that I would really like to avoid any possibility of shooting someone's dog, when I spotted a great hiding place in some rocks a ways off the trail. So I hid in there and hoped for the best. The big dog ran right by me close enough to touch, but never saw me. The dog owner passed by on the trail none the wiser. I re-snapped the strap on my holster and carried on, never having had to do anything distasteful.
This whole 'dog' thing reminds me of a personal incident.
I went hiking on an unfamiliar NF trail several years ago. At the end of my excursion on my way back to my truck, I spotted another hiker with a dog some distance off through the woods. The dog was a full grown Rottweiler, and not on a leash. Im generally not afraid of dogs, but Im quite leery of that type. I had a revolver holstered, and unsnapped the retention, just in case. I was thinking that I would really like to avoid any possibility of shooting someone's dog, when I spotted a great hiding place in some rocks a ways off the trail. So I hid in there and hoped for the best. The big dog ran right by me close enough to touch, but never saw me. The dog owner passed by on the trail none the wiser. I re-snapped the strap on my holster and carried on, never having had to do anything distasteful.
Regarding why don’t cops take dogs with them on “stake-outs” to “watch their back”.
1.Only a certain K9 positions are allotted/afforded by departments and agencies. Depends on the budget and need of each entity. A K9 ain’t cheap. Lots of training to start and maintain ability and usefulness. The handler as well.
2. Depending on the purpose of the dog tracking, detection, or patrol (bite) determine Ed how it’s utilized. Some dogs can crossover utility and some can’t. Just depends on the dog.
3. It takes a special dog to go on operations where you don’t want to be detected. A bark at the wrong time blows your cover. Panting and the need to relieve themselves can be problematic at inoperative times. No, it’s a rare instance when a dog is used to be sneaky.
4. LE usually can’t take personal dogs to work with them. I know of a few occasions where an officer paid to get his own K9 and certification from an accredited entity to be used at his department which couldn’t afford one. With department approval, that’s been done. But, the upkeep and cert were on the officer. It ain’t cheap and liability is stiff.
Yes, dogs are useful but, limited.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Another incident, not funny at the time, but pretty funny afterward.
Leaving work in the middle of the night. The local PD had the street closed off. I mistakenly thought the closure was only partial, and attempted to pass through. An officer stopped me. As it turned out he was K9 officer, and decided I needed to be yelled at. His dog wasn't satisfied with the volume and gave assistance from the back seat. I was thoroughly chastised and sent on my way, head bowed in shame......
Nothing out there in the dark that isn't out there in daylight...
Bad things and persons can hide in the cover of darkness much easier than in daylight, though. It's much harder to see dangerous things at night too. I know I had said I would post no more on this thread but the devil tempted me hard here to respond.
Regarding why don’t cops take dogs with them on “stake-outs” to “watch their back”.
1.Only a certain K9 positions are allotted/afforded by departments and agencies. Depends on the budget and need of each entity. A K9 ain’t cheap. Lots of training to start and maintain ability and usefulness. The handler as well.
2. Depending on the purpose of the dog tracking, detection, or patrol (bite) determine Ed how it’s utilized. Some dogs can crossover utility and some can’t. Just depends on the dog.
3. It takes a special dog to go on operations where you don’t want to be detected. A bark at the wrong time blows your cover. Panting and the need to relieve themselves can be problematic at inoperative times. No, it’s a rare instance when a dog is used to be sneaky.
4. LE usually can’t take personal dogs to work with them. I know of a few occasions where an officer paid to get his own K9 and certification from an accredited entity to be used at his department which couldn’t afford one. With department approval, that’s been done. But, the upkeep and cert were on the officer. It ain’t cheap and liability is stiff.
Yes, dogs are useful but, limited.
Then as a cop assigned to a stake-out in a creepy run-down building, and no K9 was available for me, I would demand another officer to be by my side if my post was the window of a building. If I had the rifle or night scope looking out, the other man would be facing rearward to literally cover my back. Otherwise I'd tell my boss to use my badge as a suppository and summarily quit. I suppose dogs can trained to be silent in tactical situations. They might be trained to use body language as a wagging tail and ears lying flat if they should sense danger approaching near.
I owned a protection trained dog. To start, the cost is a healthy 5 figures. He was so good and well trained he would pee on command. But at the end of the day he was a dog and that always has a level of unpredictability associated with it that can NOT be trained out of them. They are not robots.
Are we seriously having a self defense discussion based on the movie “Wolfen?”
The "Wolfen" film was only used as a model for police stakeouts. I'm sure real-world cops perform duties in many such creepy places. The church scene in "Wolfen" has always impressed me as the visual MODEL for the ultimate creepy tactical place to be all alone in. Creepy places are often those in heavy cover where bad guys or unfriendly animals can easily hide in. Darkness adds even greater hiding ability. Since this is a DEFENSE forum, I feel it prudent to be especially wary of tight and dark places. When you are out on a flat wide-open space the tactical situation is totally different. Things (animals and criminals with the usual close-up weapons of crime as handguns, knives and clubs) can't easily jump you in a big open field. It's always best to stay as close to lighting as possible when in parks or in the streets at night. However, a soldier on an open battlefield is most vulnerable since the enemy has rifles and he has no cover there. Antelope hunters (pronghorn and African plains game) often take their quarry on open ground and know how tough it is to stalk them even with a rifle.
I owned a protection trained dog. To start, the cost is a healthy 5 figures. He was so good and well trained he would pee on command. But at the end of the day he was a dog and that always has a level of unpredictability associated with it that can NOT be trained out of them. They are not robots.
My aunt owned a German shepherd in 1999. it was not trained for police work but for the security of her home in the country. I think it was more of a watch dog. She told me training fees then were $2,000. I even feel safe with a large black German shepherd dog or a large black Lab all alone in dark or otherwise spooky places with a gun to back the dog up. Large dogs with basic obedience training can still warn you if some stranger is approaching before you even see the stranger. My philosophy is the mere presence of an intimating-looking dog is enough to deter most would-be thugs. Citizens don't need a dog with the high training level of a working police or military dog: they need a pooch to offer them peace of mind, an alarm for danger and possibly scare away trouble. They prudently should have a gun to back up the dog. How hard and/or expensive is it to train a dog to "guard" on command? They basically growl and bark at a stranger to scare them.
I owned a protection trained dog. To start, the cost is a healthy 5 figures. He was so good and well trained he would pee on command. But at the end of the day he was a dog and that always has a level of unpredictability associated with it that can NOT be trained out of them. They are not robots.
My aunt owned a German shepherd in 1999. it was not trained for police work but for the security of her home in the country. I think it was more of a watch dog. She told me training fees then were $2,000. I even feel safe with a large black German shepherd dog or a large black Lab all alone in dark or otherwise spooky places with a gun to back the dog up. Large dogs with basic obedience training can still warn you if some stranger is approaching before you even see the stranger. My philosophy is the mere presence of an intimating-looking dog is enough to deter most would-be thugs. Citizens don't need a dog with the high training level of a working police or military dog: they need a pooch to offer them peace of mind, an alarm for danger and possibly scare away trouble. They prudently should have a gun to back up the dog. How hard and/or expensive is it to train a dog to "guard" on command? They basically growl and bark at a stranger to scare them.
The dog alone will set you back a whole lot more than that nowadays. The bitch my dog came out of was $5,000 (in 2001) and she was imported in from Europe specifically to breed K9 suitable dogs.
I always find it amusing when a person THINKS they understand what everyone else (citizens) needs. It would be a much nicer Earth if everyone would figure out ONLY their own needs and let others do the same without anyone assuming they have any clue or know what is best for others. Unsolicited advice and edicts make folks sound, well... foolish... especially when you are addressing a whole lot of folks with a whole lot of mileage to them. Just a thought.
And a dog that barks and growls is fine as long as you don't face a determined threat that puts a slug into it and then comes after you. If I have a choice I'd rather have one that sits quietly until I point, give him the command to strike and set him loose.
To each his own. I'm not telling anybody what to do but only try to make friendly suggestions. If you can afford something special, then fine. Some people just don't have a bunch of dough to dump into a dog.
The "Wolfen" film was only used as a model for police stakeouts. I'm sure real-world cops perform duties in many such creepy places. The church scene in "Wolfen" has always impressed me as the visual MODEL for the ultimate creepy tactical place to be all alone in. Creepy places are often those in heavy cover where bad guys or unfriendly animals can easily hide in. Darkness adds even greater hiding ability. Since this is a DEFENSE forum, I feel it prudent to be especially wary of tight and dark places. When you are out on a flat wide-open space the tactical situation is totally different.
...
Creepy places can also be those times when you step outside and become aware, "Oh crap, I just realized I'm out here in the middle of nowhere and completely unarmed. I sure hope there's nothing dangerous out here."
Survival Tip:
Stay away from the big dogs.
Creepy dudes.
And strange women!
In summary, carry where permitted by law or stay away from those places that don't allow conceal carry. Stay vigilant. Awareness is your first defense. With good awareness, many of your "What if's" become moot. If dark, cramp close quarters creep you out, stay away from those places.
That about covers it.
Please note the heavy amount of tongue in cheek concerning the pictures above and don't take things soo seriously.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
I wonder what the world would be like if we didn't have stupid, scary movies with impossible plots to put unreasonable fear and paranoia into our minds. A dark, disheveled building with exaggerated wind noises might not seem all that scary. Writers and directors put all that nonsense in there to create fear and stimulate adrenaline that gives you that rush of excitement. Unfortunately it also leaves an impression in your mind that gets dredged up every time your surroundings remind you of that stupid movie.
I wonder what the world would be like if we didn't have stupid, scary movies with impossible plots to put unreasonable fear and paranoia into our minds. A dark, disheveled building with exaggerated wind noises might not seem all that scary. Writers and directors put all that nonsense in there to create fear and stimulate adrenaline that gives you that rush of excitement. Unfortunately it also leaves an impression in your mind that gets dredged up every time your surroundings remind you of that stupid movie.
Reminds me of the time I was walking through the swamp to my deer-stand in the pitch dark, except we had a full moon and high winds with broken clouds. One second it was almost like daylight, the next too dark to see the inside of your eyelids. I'd watched "Blair Witch Project" the night before, and I guess the wind was masking my approach. Unbeknown, I walked slap into the MIDDLE of a dozen suddenly frightened bedded deer. Damn!!!!....."good times".
Mike
"Walking away seems to be a lost art form." N454casull
I don't get "scary places". Went for a ghost tour in Charleston with the wife and amongst other places they took us to an oooooold graveyard that was right out of a Horror film complete with the ominous ancient church and all... I got bored of listening to the guide so I went of on my own for a stroll away from the group. I find these places... peaceful...
For some reason I kept looking back at that tower over and over again. It was like it really had my attention. Something else happened that was really interesting but that's a story for another time...
Cemeteries usually have no effect on me, even the one beside the church my grandfather founded, in which a substantial number of family is buried. But there are three that stand out in my mind....
Mount Moriah Cemetery in Deadwood, SD. Though the resting place of Wild Bill Hickock, Calamity Jane, etc., it has all the ambiance of an abandoned strip-mall parking lot at 8AM on a Sunday morning. Turns out, that's not the original graveyard. All the occupants were disinterred from the original and relocated to the current site to make room for the towns expansion.
Mount Hope Cemetery Lander, WY. This one was spooky, though I can't really say why. It was a bright warm fall afternoon when I was there, but it felt very dark and oppressive from the time I set foot in it until I cleared the gate leaving it. I found it an interesting place historically, but have no desire to go back.
Mount Pisgah Cemetery, Cripple Creek, Co. This one felt like the occupants were happy to be there. Although I'm told I'm getting cremated and scattered at Wilkerson Pass, if buried, that's that's where I'd want to go.
Three cemeteries....3 completely different vibes.
Mike
"Walking away seems to be a lost art form." N454casull
Like I said I find Cemeteries and Graveyards peaceful at any time. While our ranch was being built wife and I rented this OOOOOOOOOLD farmhouse out in the country and after we moved in we found out that there was a HUGE Cemetery just to the other side of this tree line bordering the property. We never saw it before we moved in because we never came to see the rental house from that side of the road until AFTER we moved in. Wife got a little nervous, were were OUT in the country and it was lonely/dark at night. I used to walk out late at night for a stroll in the fields with the dogs and I loved going towards the Cemetery. No one on either side of what Zorba calls "the veil" ever bothered me and if the dogs felt anything they never let me know.
Replies
I went hiking on an unfamiliar NF trail several years ago. At the end of my excursion on my way back to my truck, I spotted another hiker with a dog some distance off through the woods. The dog was a full grown Rottweiler, and not on a leash. Im generally not afraid of dogs, but Im quite leery of that type. I had a revolver holstered, and unsnapped the retention, just in case. I was thinking that I would really like to avoid any possibility of shooting someone's dog, when I spotted a great hiding place in some rocks a ways off the trail. So I hid in there and hoped for the best. The big dog ran right by me close enough to touch, but never saw me. The dog owner passed by on the trail none the wiser. I re-snapped the strap on my holster and carried on, never having had to do anything distasteful.
True story.
Dogs are good, but nothing is unfailable.
That could have been Doug. with his dog.
Leaving work in the middle of the night. The local PD had the street closed off. I mistakenly thought the closure was only partial, and attempted to pass through. An officer stopped me. As it turned out he was K9 officer, and decided I needed to be yelled at. His dog wasn't satisfied with the volume and gave assistance from the back seat. I was thoroughly chastised and sent on my way, head bowed in shame......
Bad things and persons can hide in the cover of darkness much easier than in daylight, though. It's much harder to see dangerous things at night too. I know I had said I would post no more on this thread but the devil tempted me hard here to respond.
Problem. Solved.
Are we seriously having a self defense discussion based on the movie “Wolfen?”
-Mikhail Kalashnikov
This is quite possibly the most entertaining set of posts I’ve read in a long time!
The "Wolfen" film was only used as a model for police stakeouts. I'm sure real-world cops perform duties in many such creepy places. The church scene in "Wolfen" has always impressed me as the visual MODEL for the ultimate creepy tactical place to be all alone in. Creepy places are often those in heavy cover where bad guys or unfriendly animals can easily hide in. Darkness adds even greater hiding ability. Since this is a DEFENSE forum, I feel it prudent to be especially wary of tight and dark places. When you are out on a flat wide-open space the tactical situation is totally different. Things (animals and criminals with the usual close-up weapons of crime as handguns, knives and clubs) can't easily jump you in a big open field. It's always best to stay as close to lighting as possible when in parks or in the streets at night. However, a soldier on an open battlefield is most vulnerable since the enemy has rifles and he has no cover there. Antelope hunters (pronghorn and African plains game) often take their quarry on open ground and know how tough it is to stalk them even with a rifle.
My aunt owned a German shepherd in 1999. it was not trained for police work but for the security of her home in the country. I think it was more of a watch dog. She told me training fees then were $2,000. I even feel safe with a large black German shepherd dog or a large black Lab all alone in dark or otherwise spooky places with a gun to back the dog up. Large dogs with basic obedience training can still warn you if some stranger is approaching before you even see the stranger. My philosophy is the mere presence of an intimating-looking dog is enough to deter most would-be thugs. Citizens don't need a dog with the high training level of a working police or military dog: they need a pooch to offer them peace of mind, an alarm for danger and possibly scare away trouble. They prudently should have a gun to back up the dog. How hard and/or expensive is it to train a dog to "guard" on command? They basically growl and bark at a stranger to scare them.
I always find it amusing when a person THINKS they understand what everyone else (citizens) needs. It would be a much nicer Earth if everyone would figure out ONLY their own needs and let others do the same without anyone assuming they have any clue or know what is best for others. Unsolicited advice and edicts make folks sound, well... foolish... especially when you are addressing a whole lot of folks with a whole lot of mileage to them. Just a thought.
And a dog that barks and growls is fine as long as you don't face a determined threat that puts a slug into it and then comes after you. If I have a choice I'd rather have one that sits quietly until I point, give him the command to strike and set him loose.
How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain
Mike
N454casull
Docking it's tail must have stung a bit.
For some reason I kept looking back at that tower over and over again. It was like it really had my attention. Something else happened that was really interesting but that's a story for another time...
Mount Moriah Cemetery in Deadwood, SD. Though the resting place of Wild Bill Hickock, Calamity Jane, etc., it has all the ambiance of an abandoned strip-mall parking lot at 8AM on a Sunday morning. Turns out, that's not the original graveyard. All the occupants were disinterred from the original and relocated to the current site to make room for the towns expansion.
Mount Hope Cemetery Lander, WY. This one was spooky, though I can't really say why. It was a bright warm fall afternoon when I was there, but it felt very dark and oppressive from the time I set foot in it until I cleared the gate leaving it. I found it an interesting place historically, but have no desire to go back.
Mount Pisgah Cemetery, Cripple Creek, Co. This one felt like the occupants were happy to be there. Although I'm told I'm getting cremated and scattered at Wilkerson Pass, if buried, that's that's where I'd want to go.
Three cemeteries....3 completely different vibes.
Mike
N454casull
Père Lachaise
N454casull