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What weapon type is Number One in America for deer harvest?

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  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,624 Senior Member
    GermanShepherd said: Black powder seems too dangerous to me.
    Why on earth would you say that?
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,868 Senior Member
    edited May 14 #93



    Beyond 600 yards.... B)

    Beyond 600 yards and no butt-stock, goodness!  Shooting hands and nerves must be made of steel. That looks to me like a bolt-action rifle missing the butt-stock.

    If I'm not mistaken, a RIFLE technically has to be designed to be fired from the shoulder. Technically speaking, what is the minimum barrel length for any rifle and any carbine? What is the maximum barrel length for any pistol?

    Here's an interesting question: Are there ever situations anywhere on American soil where handguns would be allowed for deer but modern rifles would not be allowed depending upon jurisdictions, seasons and game regs? Are handguns ever allowed for deer in any so-called "shotgun-only" states?
    I think you need to spend some more time looking things up. 
    This is not a rifle! 
    It never has been a rifle!
    It is a Remington XP-100.
     It is a handgun made by Remington, and the action has always been a handgun action.
    This XP is chambered in 6.5 WSM/Leopard. 
    This barrel is now worn out, which means the throat is cooked, and it will be getting a new barrel, and then it will be chambered in a very similar cartridge: 6.5PRC

    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    edited May 14 #94



    Beyond 600 yards.... B)

    Beyond 600 yards and no butt-stock, goodness!  Shooting hands and nerves must be made of steel. That looks to me like a bolt-action rifle missing the butt-stock.

    If I'm not mistaken, a RIFLE technically has to be designed to be fired from the shoulder. Technically speaking, what is the minimum barrel length for any rifle and any carbine? What is the maximum barrel length for any pistol?

    Here's an interesting question: Are there ever situations anywhere on American soil where handguns would be allowed for deer but modern rifles would not be allowed depending upon jurisdictions, seasons and game regs? Are handguns ever allowed for deer in any so-called "shotgun-only" states?
    The terms Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun and Firearm have specified definitions at a Federal level.

    The ATF has defined a rifle as follows: "The term “Rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger."  

    Rifles must have a minimum barrel length (16") and minimum overall length (26").  Anything originally built or altered to be shorter than these measurements is defined as a "Firearm" and must be registered with the ATF.

    A shotgun is defined as follows: The term “Shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

    Shotguns must have a minimum barrel length (18") and minimum overall length (26").  Anything originally built or altered to be shorter than these measurements is defined as a "Firearm" and must be registered with the ATF.

    A Pistol is defined as follows: The term “Pistol” means a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having:

    -a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s);
    -and a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

    There is no mention of a maximum barrel length in the ATF definition.

    The ATF does not define a "Handgun" as far as I know but states normally do in their laws/regulations concerning activities like Concealed Carry and Hunting.  The generally acceptable general definition is: Handgun is a firearm with a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.  This is the definition in my state laws.

    Many states further specify that a handgun does not exceed 12 inches measured from the two farthest points on the gun when dealing with Concealed Carry, and as another example Wyoming sets a 16" maximum limit on barrels of "handguns" in their hunting regulations.
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • GermanShepherdGermanShepherd Posts: 160 Member



    Beyond 600 yards.... B)

    Beyond 600 yards and no buttstock, goodness!  Shooting hands and nerves must be made of steel.





    Beyond 600 yards.... B)

    Beyond 600 yards and no butt-stock, goodness!  Shooting hands and nerves must be made of steel. That looks to me like a bolt-action rifle missing the butt-stock.

    If I'm not mistaken, a RIFLE technically has to be designed to be fired from the shoulder. Technically speaking, what is the minimum barrel length for any rifle and any carbine? What is the maximum barrel length for any pistol?

    Here's an interesting question: Are there ever situations anywhere on American soil where handguns would be allowed for deer but modern rifles would not be allowed depending upon jurisdictions, seasons and game regs? Are handguns ever allowed for deer in any so-called "shotgun-only" states?
    I think you need to spend some more time looking things up. 
    This is not a rifle! 
    It never has been a rifle!
    It is a Remington XP-100.
     It is a handgun made by Remington, and the action has always been a handgun action.
    This XP is chambered in 6.5 WSM/Leopard. 
    This barrel is now worn out, which means the throat is cooked, and it will be getting a new barrel, and then it will be chambered in a very similar cartridge: 6.5PRC


    I am aware that that is not technically a RIFLE since it has no provisions to be fired from the shoulder. I was only implying that that particular gun was "shaped" like a bolt-action rifle, at least to my eyes, that had it's buttock cut off. It's about looks or perception. It's a pistol? Can it technically be fired with one hand? The firearm is very unfamiliar to me and curious indeed. I really can't look a photograph up in the dictionary to get a definition. Heck, when John Wayne first saw a 45 (M1911) in one of his cowboy pictures, he asked "what that thing was that was funny shaped". He later remarked that he would stick to his old-fashioned six-shooter.
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,868 Senior Member
    Yes, it can be technically fired with one hand, but most people when they hunt or trying to be accurate are not shooting a handgun with only one hand. I have killed big game while standing, with no support, but the shot was not far. Most of the time I use some kind of field rest as should most rifle or handgun hunters. 
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,624 Senior Member
    edited May 14 #97



    Beyond 600 yards.... B)

    Beyond 600 yards and no buttstock, goodness!  Shooting hands and nerves must be made of steel.





    Beyond 600 yards.... B)

    Beyond 600 yards and no butt-stock, goodness!  Shooting hands and nerves must be made of steel. That looks to me like a bolt-action rifle missing the butt-stock.

    If I'm not mistaken, a RIFLE technically has to be designed to be fired from the shoulder. Technically speaking, what is the minimum barrel length for any rifle and any carbine? What is the maximum barrel length for any pistol?

    Here's an interesting question: Are there ever situations anywhere on American soil where handguns would be allowed for deer but modern rifles would not be allowed depending upon jurisdictions, seasons and game regs? Are handguns ever allowed for deer in any so-called "shotgun-only" states?
    I think you need to spend some more time looking things up. 
    This is not a rifle! 
    It never has been a rifle!
    It is a Remington XP-100.
     It is a handgun made by Remington, and the action has always been a handgun action.
    This XP is chambered in 6.5 WSM/Leopard. 
    This barrel is now worn out, which means the throat is cooked, and it will be getting a new barrel, and then it will be chambered in a very similar cartridge: 6.5PRC


    I am aware that that is not technically a RIFLE since it has no provisions to be fired from the shoulder. I was only implying that that particular gun was "shaped" like a bolt-action rifle, at least to my eyes, that had it's buttock cut off. It's about looks or perception. It's a pistol? Can it technically be fired with one hand? The firearm is very unfamiliar to me and curious indeed. I really can't look a photograph up in the dictionary to get a definition. Heck, when John Wayne first saw a 45 (M1911) in one of his cowboy pictures, he asked "what that thing was that was funny shaped". He later remarked that he would stick to his old-fashioned six-shooter.
    John was looking at a Bergmann Model 1896 ( Actually a Walther P38 modified to look like a Bergmann}...not a 1911...the movie was Big Jake
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,868 Senior Member
    GunNut said:



    Beyond 600 yards.... B)

    Beyond 600 yards and no butt-stock, goodness!  Shooting hands and nerves must be made of steel. That looks to me like a bolt-action rifle missing the butt-stock.

    If I'm not mistaken, a RIFLE technically has to be designed to be fired from the shoulder. Technically speaking, what is the minimum barrel length for any rifle and any carbine? What is the maximum barrel length for any pistol?

    Here's an interesting question: Are there ever situations anywhere on American soil where handguns would be allowed for deer but modern rifles would not be allowed depending upon jurisdictions, seasons and game regs? Are handguns ever allowed for deer in any so-called "shotgun-only" states?
    The terms Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun and Firearm have specified definitions at a Federal level.

    There is no mention of a maximum barrel length in the ATF definition.

    The ATF does not define a "Handgun" as far as I know but states normally do in their laws/regulations concerning activities like Concealed Carry and Hunting.  The generally acceptable general definition is: Handgun is a firearm with a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.  This is the definition in my state laws.

    Many states further specify that a handgun does not exceed 12 inches measured from the two farthest points on the gun when dealing with Concealed Carry, and as another example Wyoming sets a 16" maximum limit on barrels of "handguns" in their hunting regulations.
    Quick clarification on the Wyoming Regs for Big Game.  Only For Type "O" or a specific handgun tag is the 16" max limit applied.
    If one is hunting during a firearm season, say for elk with a specialty pistol, you could use a 14" or a 20" barrel for that matter if you wanted to legally.
    As you noted, there is no max barrel length federally, and the state of Wyoming only gives a max length for handgun, when having a specific handgun hunting tag, of which there are very few, and none in my part of the state.


    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    edited May 14 #99
    GunNut said:



    Beyond 600 yards.... B)

    Beyond 600 yards and no butt-stock, goodness!  Shooting hands and nerves must be made of steel. That looks to me like a bolt-action rifle missing the butt-stock.

    If I'm not mistaken, a RIFLE technically has to be designed to be fired from the shoulder. Technically speaking, what is the minimum barrel length for any rifle and any carbine? What is the maximum barrel length for any pistol?

    Here's an interesting question: Are there ever situations anywhere on American soil where handguns would be allowed for deer but modern rifles would not be allowed depending upon jurisdictions, seasons and game regs? Are handguns ever allowed for deer in any so-called "shotgun-only" states?
    The terms Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun and Firearm have specified definitions at a Federal level.

    There is no mention of a maximum barrel length in the ATF definition.

    The ATF does not define a "Handgun" as far as I know but states normally do in their laws/regulations concerning activities like Concealed Carry and Hunting.  The generally acceptable general definition is: Handgun is a firearm with a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.  This is the definition in my state laws.

    Many states further specify that a handgun does not exceed 12 inches measured from the two farthest points on the gun when dealing with Concealed Carry, and as another example Wyoming sets a 16" maximum limit on barrels of "handguns" in their hunting regulations.
    Quick clarification on the Wyoming Regs for Big Game.  Only For Type "O" or a specific handgun tag is the 16" max limit applied.
    If one is hunting during a firearm season, say for elk with a specialty pistol, you could use a 14" or a 20" barrel for that matter if you wanted to legally.
    As you noted, there is no max barrel length federally, and the state of Wyoming only gives a max length for handgun, when having a specific handgun hunting tag, of which there are very few, and none in my part of the state.


    Thanks for the clarification Ernie.  I was hoping you’d chime in!
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • GermanShepherdGermanShepherd Posts: 160 Member
    Jayhawker said:



    Beyond 600 yards.... B)

    Beyond 600 yards and no buttstock, goodness!  Shooting hands and nerves must be made of steel.





    Beyond 600 yards.... B)

    Beyond 600 yards and no butt-stock, goodness!  Shooting hands and nerves must be made of steel. That looks to me like a bolt-action rifle missing the butt-stock.

    If I'm not mistaken, a RIFLE technically has to be designed to be fired from the shoulder. Technically speaking, what is the minimum barrel length for any rifle and any carbine? What is the maximum barrel length for any pistol?

    Here's an interesting question: Are there ever situations anywhere on American soil where handguns would be allowed for deer but modern rifles would not be allowed depending upon jurisdictions, seasons and game regs? Are handguns ever allowed for deer in any so-called "shotgun-only" states?
    I think you need to spend some more time looking things up. 
    This is not a rifle! 
    It never has been a rifle!
    It is a Remington XP-100.
     It is a handgun made by Remington, and the action has always been a handgun action.
    This XP is chambered in 6.5 WSM/Leopard. 
    This barrel is now worn out, which means the throat is cooked, and it will be getting a new barrel, and then it will be chambered in a very similar cartridge: 6.5PRC


    I am aware that that is not technically a RIFLE since it has no provisions to be fired from the shoulder. I was only implying that that particular gun was "shaped" like a bolt-action rifle, at least to my eyes, that had it's buttock cut off. It's about looks or perception. It's a pistol? Can it technically be fired with one hand? The firearm is very unfamiliar to me and curious indeed. I really can't look a photograph up in the dictionary to get a definition. Heck, when John Wayne first saw a 45 (M1911) in one of his cowboy pictures, he asked "what that thing was that was funny shaped". He later remarked that he would stick to his old-fashioned six-shooter.
    John was looking at a Bergmann Model 1896 ( Actually a Walther P38 modified to look like a Bergmann}...not a 1911...the movie was Big Jake

    Ooops, it looked like an American 45 to me at that time. It seems like one of the characters in the film said "45" in regards to that odd square-shaped thing. I think Big Jake also was the film where Wayne's lawman character gave a man a fine for deer hunting. I didn't think they even had deer regs back in them days.
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 8,227 Senior Member
    I remember Clint's "Joe Kidd" get a fine for killing a deer out of season.  It was set in the late 1800s or early 1900s in New Mexico.  Pretty good movie, as I recall.
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,692 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:



    Beyond 600 yards.... B)

    Beyond 600 yards and no buttstock, goodness!  Shooting hands and nerves must be made of steel.





    Beyond 600 yards.... B)

    Beyond 600 yards and no butt-stock, goodness!  Shooting hands and nerves must be made of steel. That looks to me like a bolt-action rifle missing the butt-stock.

    If I'm not mistaken, a RIFLE technically has to be designed to be fired from the shoulder. Technically speaking, what is the minimum barrel length for any rifle and any carbine? What is the maximum barrel length for any pistol?

    Here's an interesting question: Are there ever situations anywhere on American soil where handguns would be allowed for deer but modern rifles would not be allowed depending upon jurisdictions, seasons and game regs? Are handguns ever allowed for deer in any so-called "shotgun-only" states?
    I think you need to spend some more time looking things up. 
    This is not a rifle! 
    It never has been a rifle!
    It is a Remington XP-100.
     It is a handgun made by Remington, and the action has always been a handgun action.
    This XP is chambered in 6.5 WSM/Leopard. 
    This barrel is now worn out, which means the throat is cooked, and it will be getting a new barrel, and then it will be chambered in a very similar cartridge: 6.5PRC


    I am aware that that is not technically a RIFLE since it has no provisions to be fired from the shoulder. I was only implying that that particular gun was "shaped" like a bolt-action rifle, at least to my eyes, that had it's buttock cut off. It's about looks or perception. It's a pistol? Can it technically be fired with one hand? The firearm is very unfamiliar to me and curious indeed. I really can't look a photograph up in the dictionary to get a definition. Heck, when John Wayne first saw a 45 (M1911) in one of his cowboy pictures, he asked "what that thing was that was funny shaped". He later remarked that he would stick to his old-fashioned six-shooter.
    John was looking at a Bergmann Model 1896 ( Actually a Walther P38 modified to look like a Bergmann}...not a 1911...the movie was Big Jake
    It was also a thing called a "movie" and John was an "actor."  Actors tend to say words written by other people that may or may not reflect their actual feelings on a subject.  That's because movies are generally fiction - not a retelling of events.  

    Most John Wayne "quotes" people like to repeat are from movies, and hence there's a good chance they may not be something John Wayne would say or even believe if it was a real life event.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 25,780 Senior Member

    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,868 Senior Member



    Beyond 600 yards.... B)

    Beyond 600 yards and no buttstock, goodness!  Shooting hands and nerves must be made of steel.



    Here's an interesting question: Are there ever situations anywhere on American soil where handguns would be allowed for deer but modern rifles would not be allowed depending upon jurisdictions, seasons and game regs? Are handguns ever allowed for deer in any so-called "shotgun-only" states?
    I think you need to spend some more time looking things up. 
    This is not a rifle! 
    It never has been a rifle!
    It is a Remington XP-100.
     It is a handgun made by Remington, and the action has always been a handgun action.
    This XP is chambered in 6.5 WSM/Leopard. 
    This barrel is now worn out, which means the throat is cooked, and it will be getting a new barrel, and then it will be chambered in a very similar cartridge: 6.5PRC


    I am aware that that is not technically a RIFLE since it has no provisions to be fired from the shoulder. I was only implying that that particular gun was "shaped" like a bolt-action rifle, at least to my eyes, that had it's buttock cut off. It's about looks or perception. It's a pistol? Can it technically be fired with one hand? The firearm is very unfamiliar to me and curious indeed. I really can't look a photograph up in the dictionary to get a definition. Heck, when John Wayne first saw a 45 (M1911) in one of his cowboy pictures, he asked "what that thing was that was funny shaped". He later remarked that he would stick to his old-fashioned six-shooter.
    Some states allow some handguns (different states have different regulations)to be used in different parts of their states.  In some states, where shotguns are allowed and rifles are not, there is at times allowance for straight wall cases in handguns to be used, and at other times specialty pistols that use rifle and or straight wall cartridges.  Each state sets up their regs differently. 
    This is for hunting, and even then the regs in that state can change from year to year.
    Others, have already posted about the definitions according to the federal government of what make up a handgun or a pistol.
    Just like in the rifle world, your ELR rifles, F-Open rifles, 100/200 yard BR rifles, and Light Gun and Heavy Gun in the 600/1000 yard BR games at times don't even look like a rifle that would be usable by the general Joe or Jane, yet they are still rifles.
    It is the same thing with specialty pistols.
    For instance I used a 15" 20 BR center-grip XP-100 several Saturdays ago in a local PRS match (You can look that upon the web or checkout YouTube what kind of shooting is required) out side of Sheridan, WY.
    The range they have is absolutely beautiful
    We had 8 to 10 shots per stage on average and most of the time there would be one shot per target for a given shooting position on each stage. PRS matches are known for this and the shooting time is relatively short, especially when using a single shot XP-100. At first I thought I would use my center grip fast twist 223 HSP, but I was really looking for something that was heavier, and I ended up deciding to use my 20 BR (1-8 twist 15” McGowen barrel/Dell trigger/Aaron Alexander’s stock and brake/Burris XTR-III 3.3-18x50 with SCR MOA reticle) that Aaron built. I use the .204, 55 grain Berger, and the muzzle velocity is at 3173 ft./s. It is extremely accurate.
    Ckye-Pod bipod, Holland’s small rear field bag, and several PRS type bags were used as well.
    I had a lot of fun, there are times when I timed out, and was not able to get to shoot all of my shots, from all of the different shooting positions, but that was OK.
    I didn’t go to win anything, I went to learn, have fun, to shoot under pressure and time, which involved weird shooting positions.
    I did come in at the top half of the group (barely), which made me feel good.
    I think we had 37 or 38 shooters.
    When we called to ask about whether I could shoot an XP-100 and the 20 BR itself earlier in the week, he was unsure a little bit at first, for several reasons, but allowed me to come and shoot anyway.
    Now it’s not going to be a problem.
    The time frame for each stage was 2 minutes and 30 seconds for every stage.
    For instance, on stage one you had to engage from the five different designated positions on the fence and shot each target, which was there two of them one time.
    Move to the second shooting position and again shoot those same two targets in the same order, the new to the next place on the fence and do the same.
    When I first saw the course of fire several days before the match and noticed on stage eight, where we would be shooting from three different logs, and saw the distances and that there were mule deer, elk, and Whitetail steel targets out there. I thought that one’s going to be easy.
    To my surprise when I got there, I found out that these animals were more coyote size and did not resemble anything size wise of an actual big game animal except for the outline.
    I should’ve known better.
    For what it’s worth, every animal that was listed as a target, was smaller than its actual size.

    What made it so fun, was the men and women that were participating in it. It was a family friendly environment. A big shout out to Dan. Dan attended this match in March, and he used a rifle each time. He’s the one that invited me to come to this one. I wouldn’t have known it was going on unless he had been checking, and had invited me. Good times.
    This little XP shoots very well off of a Bi-Pod and small field bag.
    Load development at 100 yards (3-shots).


    Dan did the load development on the 20 BR.
    Specialty Pistols like rifles, can be configured in all kinds of ways.
    Consider this some ongoing education.
    http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2020/12/holiday-season-deer-hunting-with-specialty-pistols/?fbclid=IwAR1AaSbs9kleQygekk3HRaUsz44Yt48OGf4NqhNf9LVNjZG7PplCtAdd_8A



    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,654 Senior Member
    Shep, and to help mess you up...

    Since the definition of pistol is a chamber and bbl that are integral or where the chamber is permanently aligned,,,,,, revolvers are not pistols... Handguns yes, pistols, no.
    As to black powder ..
    Trivia question: do the non-traditional deer hunters have a slang word for the traditional rifle hunters?

    non-traditional deer hunters = use methods other than modern center-fire rifles


    Nope, although we do make fun of guys who use caplocks. Thats like dating your ugly sister and telling everyone you scored.



    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,746 Senior Member
    The legal methods of take are clearly defined in the Colorado regs. I would expect the other states are as careful in an increasingly complexed world.

    One part that gets a bit murky, is the pound feet of impact energy required for handgun rounds.

    Still, with deditication of purpose. I think the average person can read, decifer and safely navigate the regs to be legal accordingly.

    Hunters in general, in my experience are people disposed of dedication of purpose. Regardless of the preferred method of take.
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