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SCOTUS makes a great decision.

Gene LGene L Senior MemberPosts: 12,455 Senior Member
They ruled that firearms can't be seized from a home without a warrant.  A woman had called and said her husband had a firearm and was threatening to kill himself, although this was vague. Police seized the weapon.  No crime was involved.  Police refused to give the gun back once the issue was all but settled.  Unanimous decision.
Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.

Replies

  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Another step in the right direction.  This battle will be fought in court all the way.

    BTW so far:





  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,455 Senior Member
    I wonder what would be ruled if the guy said, yes, he planned to shoot himself.  Probably the seizure would be legal. 
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    Wow, a lot of the derided big bear is may issue (shall issue in practice.)

    Had no idea Hawaii was so locked up.
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    I wonder what would be ruled if the guy said, yes, he planned to shoot himself.  Probably the seizure would be legal. 
    They would have to take the guns, pills, kitchen knives, lamp chords, his car…. 

    All in all with someone is stating that they intend to harm themselves (or others) it’s makes more sense to just remove them and commit them to an institution.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,455 Senior Member
    edited May 18 #6
    No, he brandished the gun to his wife and said "You might as well shoot me or I'll shoot yourself" or words to that effect.  So while the threat was vague, it was specifically pointed to the pistol.

    And if you think seizing a gun is unconstitutional in that situation, try seizing a person.  LEOs don't have the authority to seize either a person or a firearm; a committal order must be signed by a judge in GA.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Then in that case I’d rather just let them shoot themselves.  It might sound cold hearted but we really do not have a right to tell anyone not to off themselves.  Ultimate it’s an intrusion on our personal liberty, and even the liberals in Europe understand this.
  • JaphyJaphy Posts: 178 Member
    nice map, Texas is close to turning green which would make it an even more beautiful map.
    btw we can thank Vermont (of all places) for the original constitutional carry.

  • PFDPFD Senior Member Posts: 1,609 Senior Member
    Many years ago I did some work for the rangers at Yosemite.
    Of course we started talking about guns and passing around our ccw permits.
    They said if you got your ccw in Mariposa County, the Sheriff would personally hand it to you, shake your hand and thank you for being a good citizen.
    That's all I got.

    Paul
  • Some_MookSome_Mook Posts: 526 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    Then in that case I’d rather just let them shoot themselves.  It might sound cold hearted but we really do not have a right to tell anyone not to off themselves.  Ultimate it’s an intrusion on our personal liberty, and even the liberals in Europe understand this.
    Shooting themselves is nasty and messy and someone is going to have to clean up the mess afterward.  Plus the use of a firearm for a suicide gives some goofballs more reasons to say "guns are bad".   My wife's uncle shot himself in the head with a shotgun.  Not only was it messy but the dumb ass basically missed and blew off half of his face.  Took almost a week to finally die.  I'd recommend that if someone really wants out, to take a boat ride a few miles off shore on Lake Superior and then go for a swim.  The hypothermia will set in pretty quick and the water is so cold that the bacteria inside the body cease functioning before they can fill the body with gas and it floats.  The body sinks to the bottom, no mess to clean up or expensive funeral and the fish get some extra protein.
    "If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace." - Thomas Paine
    "I know my place in the world and it ain’t standing next to Jerry Miculek" - Zee
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,750 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    Then in that case I’d rather just let them shoot themselves.  It might sound cold hearted but we really do not have a right to tell anyone not to off themselves.  Ultimate it’s an intrusion on our personal liberty, and even the liberals in Europe understand this.
    Completely agree - this is the polar opposite of our current cradle-to-grave nanny state.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,455 Senior Member
    It's cavalier to say "let them kill themselves." In this case, at least.  The guy didn't kill himself once the cops left which indicates a lesser solution was indicated.  I'm not a fan of cradle to the grave, but to deny the role of government entirely is not nor ever has it been the state of affairs.  Suicide (which in this case wasn't what happened once the cops left) involves MANY other actions by an uninterested party like police to determine if it was, indeed, a case of suicide or one of murder.  Suicide isn't a lone wolf solution in almost all cases, and in this instance, what was needed was ;probably a marriage counselor.  I've seen several suicides over the years and in not one instance was it the BEST solution and in one instance that comes to mind, involved the murder of two children as well as the perp.  It's the ultimate solution and not lightly arrived upon as the thing to do to get out from a bad marriage which in this case had no history of previous LE calls for service.  Suicide is something you can't take back, so it's incumbent on us to determine if it's a passing thought from a disturbed mind. 

    Let's not say "There is only one victim in suicide" to recognize there are always victims that remain.  And accept that while a person's suicide might be inevitable, this has nothing to do with Amendment 2 or 4.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 22,629 Senior Member
    Between my 30+ years in EMS and current job in a state mental hosp, it's safe to say I've probably dealt/deal with more people who've "attempted" suicide than most of the people on here.

    with all this, I've learned a couple of things...

    1) If someone REALLY wants to kill themselves, they will, and there's not a lot you can do about it. Saw a person who, having had anything that could even be remotely used as a weapon removed AND having a sitter 27/7, tore the elastic from the waistband of a pair of underwear and strangled themselves

    2) The vast majority of people who "attempt" suicide don't actually want to die. They want help/attention
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    knitepoet said:
    Between my 30+ years in EMS and current job in a state mental hosp, it's safe to say I've probably dealt/deal with more people who've "attempted" suicide than most of the people on here.

    with all this, I've learned a couple of things...

    1) If someone REALLY wants to kill themselves, they will, and there's not a lot you can do about it. Saw a person who, having had anything that could even be remotely used as a weapon removed AND having a sitter 27/7, tore the elastic from the waistband of a pair of underwear and strangled themselves

    2) The vast majority of people who "attempt" suicide don't actually want to die. They want help/attention
    This was my father's (he was an MD) observation too.  Taking away someone's means to commit suicide means nothing if they really mean to do themselves in.  My observation is not cavalier, I've had folks close to me commit suicide.  BUT once a person comes an adult they should absolutely be able to decide when to pull the plug on their own life if they so chose, for whatever reasons they feel it's their best choice, even if others don't see it their way.  It's just what I believe, and there are no emotions attached to my statement.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    edited May 19 #15
    I think interevevtion is more about the others in the home. Other's that may include small children.

    Alternative policy or law may or may not be desirable. In the meantime when the call goes out, it gets answered. Answered by people without the luxury of social analysis. I'd not like to be in their shoes, and would be inclined to consider carefully what have, or will be asked of them.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,455 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    knitepoet said:
    Between my 30+ years in EMS and current job in a state mental hosp, it's safe to say I've probably dealt/deal with more people who've "attempted" suicide than most of the people on here.

    with all this, I've learned a couple of things...

    1) If someone REALLY wants to kill themselves, they will, and there's not a lot you can do about it. Saw a person who, having had anything that could even be remotely used as a weapon removed AND having a sitter 27/7, tore the elastic from the waistband of a pair of underwear and strangled themselves

    2) The vast majority of people who "attempt" suicide don't actually want to die. They want help/attention
    This was my father's (he was an MD) observation too.  Taking away someone's means to commit suicide means nothing if they really mean to do themselves in.  My observation is not cavalier, I've had folks close to me commit suicide.  BUT once a person comes an adult they should absolutely be able to decide when to pull the plug on their own life if they so chose, for whatever reasons they feel it's their best choice, even if others don't see it their way.  It's just what I believe, and there are no emotions attached to my statement.

    You're assuming that those who wish to commit suicide are rational individuals.  I would argue that they're not rational or they wouldn't be thinking of killing themselves.  It's kinda like diving off a bridge...too late then to change your mind once you go over the rail, or pull that trigger.

    There are instances where suicide IS a rational decision, but the vast majority are not.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    GunNut said:
    knitepoet said:
    Between my 30+ years in EMS and current job in a state mental hosp, it's safe to say I've probably dealt/deal with more people who've "attempted" suicide than most of the people on here.

    with all this, I've learned a couple of things...

    1) If someone REALLY wants to kill themselves, they will, and there's not a lot you can do about it. Saw a person who, having had anything that could even be remotely used as a weapon removed AND having a sitter 27/7, tore the elastic from the waistband of a pair of underwear and strangled themselves

    2) The vast majority of people who "attempt" suicide don't actually want to die. They want help/attention
    This was my father's (he was an MD) observation too.  Taking away someone's means to commit suicide means nothing if they really mean to do themselves in.  My observation is not cavalier, I've had folks close to me commit suicide.  BUT once a person comes an adult they should absolutely be able to decide when to pull the plug on their own life if they so chose, for whatever reasons they feel it's their best choice, even if others don't see it their way.  It's just what I believe, and there are no emotions attached to my statement.

    You're assuming that those who wish to commit suicide are rational individuals.  I would argue that they're not rational or they wouldn't be thinking of killing themselves.  It's kinda like diving off a bridge...too late then to change your mind once you go over the rail, or pull that trigger.

    There are instances where suicide IS a rational decision, but the vast majority are not.
    I'm making no such assumption.  Actually suicide is probably NEVER the rational option since the measure of logical thinking is the generally accepted social rules we've established for ourselves.  But I'm also not a huge believer in "insanity" either unless there are medical underlying conditions that can be proven.  

    Some folks just think differently than "we" do.  Some are geniuses but some are just stupid, and some are just evil, and some are just not "rational" under society's definitions.  I believe that is undeniable, we see it every day and it is painfully apparent in cultural differences.  In the USA we look at suicide as an insane act and in Japan it's an act of honor.  Do you think the Japanese are wrong for looking at it from their Perspective?  I don't.  I believe that would be presumptuous of me.

    I, again, do not believe in the state protecting anyone from themselves, regardless of their perceived state of mind because that by default gives the right to OTHERS to decide what YOUR "state of mind" is.  No thank you...
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,455 Senior Member
    edited May 19 #18
    We're not in Japan and so their rationale doesn't apply here. Altruistic suicide however is or can be an honorable act.  As for protecting people from themselves, we do it all the time: seat belts, drug laws are two examples.  Others decided those laws to protect people and they seem to be much better than merely running about in a world with no rules.  One of the problems with mental illness is that people who are mentally ill don't recognize it at all; to them, they're rational.  So it takes someone who is rational to make decisions for them.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • Lonewolf-PeruLonewolf-Peru Member Posts: 648 Senior Member
    I remember watching a tv show (Many years ago). A japanese business man choosing the "honorable altruistic way out" at the end of ww2, leaving his Widow and 2 kids to deal with his debts in the years that follow. Doesn't seem to "honorabre" to me
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,455 Senior Member
    edited May 19 #20
    Suicide is almost always the ultimate act of selfishness.  I wouldn't think the business man qualifies as altruistic, it seems to be exactly the opposite act as thinking of no one but himself.  Altruistic suicide would be to me a soldier diving on a grenade to save his buddies.  As to state of mind, it has to be determined by others in any trial even before it becomes to be determined by a jury.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,735 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
     One of the problems with mental illness is that people who are mentally ill don't recognize it at all; 
    You're painting with a very broad brush there Gene...There are plenty of folks who are crazy as bedbugs and they know it...

    Evidenced by medicated folks who stop taking their meds because of the effects of those meds...after many years of the on their meds/off,their meds merry-go-round it's not an uncommon thing for them to make a conscious decision to end their lives...
    Much of this is contributed to "mental health professionals" who would rather throw pills at a problem than deal with the onerous job of getting their patients the help they need.

    There is also the issue of "mainstreaming" folks who are clearly not capable of functioning in society unless their behavior is controlled by meds...and the biggest contributor,to this issue is the VA...No need to try to change my mind...I've worked at the VA and seen it with my own two eyes...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • JustsomedudeJustsomedude Posts: 1,161 Senior Member
    Gene, you put too much credence in beings that are lucky to get 80 years in a universe that's existed for billions of years. Simply put: we aren't that important. 
    We've been conditioned to believe that obedience is virtuous and voting is freedom- 
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,455 Senior Member
    edited May 20 #23
    "The help they need?"  What is that, specifically?  We don't have the knowledge to do this and no one knows the answer.

    The only treatment that works is medication and lots of time it doesn't work. I'm familiar with the VA's shortcomings although they've been fairly good to me.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,750 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    We're not in Japan and so their rationale doesn't apply here. Altruistic suicide however is or can be an honorable act.  As for protecting people from themselves, we do it all the time: seat belts, drug laws are two examples.  Others decided those laws to protect people and they seem to be much better than merely running about in a world with no rules.  One of the problems with mental illness is that people who are mentally ill don't recognize it at all; to them, they're rational.  So it takes someone who is rational to make decisions for them.
    Which doesn't justify the state getting involved with an individual's choices. I wear my seatbelt, and wore a helmet back in the day when I rode motorcycles - and I don't do drugs or even alcohol. But  I see red every time I see one of those "click it or ticket" signs - the state showing me it has "the stick" to beat me with if I don't submit and obey their ever increasing over reaching rules. I abhor the Nanny State and anyone who promulgates that type of thinking. If I want to shoot drugs, drive without a seatbelt or helmet, or do 10,000 other stupid things that don't injure anybody but myself, I'll be damned if I'll willingly grant the State - or anybody else - the right to tell me nay. Yes, "we do it all the time" - more incrementalism as used by both the Left and the Right. I sure don't know how in tarnation I, or just about anybody/everybody I know, ever managed to grow up without the ever present Nanny State dictating everything even children can and can't do. Now our schools all have "car loops" from parents dropping off and picking up their kids because they're so terrified of life that the kids can't even walk or ride a bike to school - and some parents have even gotten in trouble for allowing their kids to do just that. THIS IS NOT THE KIND OF COUNTRY I WANT TO LIVE IN, and it didn't used to be this way.

    UTTER CONTEMPT!


    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • JustsomedudeJustsomedude Posts: 1,161 Senior Member
    I agree wholeheartedly with Zorba. This country is phenomenal at ruling via extortion. The government motto should be: We have what it takes to take what you have.

    It amazes me how many people, including folks here, that think I'm extreme because I just want left the hell alone. 
    We've been conditioned to believe that obedience is virtuous and voting is freedom- 
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 24,750 Senior Member
    edited May 20 #26
    I agree wholeheartedly with Zorba. This country is phenomenal at ruling via extortion. The government motto should be: We have what it takes to take what you have.

    It amazes me how many people, including folks here, that think I'm extreme because I just want left the hell alone. 
    And fantastic at witch hunts too.

    People want their slavery, and they won't mind their own business. There's NOTHING worse than a damned busybody - and our country and gov't is full of them.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 22,629 Senior Member
    .
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


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