Bond Arms Derringer - My Little Friend

Zee

Picked up my Bond Arms Roughneck on Thursday! Have been shooting it for a couple days and have to say, this gun is painfully fun!

Plan is for this to be a ranch/property Gun while doing labor. So, the first thing I wanted to know was would it kill snakes?  From experience shooting my friends Bond Arms, I knew I wanted the defensive round in the top barrel as it tends to be more POA/POI and that the bottom barrel would be for snake shot. 

Saddled on up to the target at 3 feet and the gun went, “click”. Opened the action and saw a very light primer strike. Closed it, cycled the barrels, and tried again, “click”. With another light primer strike. Put it in the top barrel and, “bang”!  Ded snek!
Thats gonna be a problem I need to figure out. Is it a barrel issue or an ammo issue. 

Switched to my somewhat warm 200gr Speer GD handloads and moved back to 3 yards. The top barrel was spot on with no issues. The bottom barrel was a little low as suspected. 

At 10yrds, the barrels show their propensity to climb and dive with distance. 

I then switched to 230gr FMJ ammo (just to save my handloads) and tried 7/15/20 yards with just the top barrel. Spot on at 7, climbed at 15, so I aimed low at 20 in order to stay on the 12” plate. 

Velocity wise, I’m rather impressed. Out of a meager 2.5” barrel, my 200gr GD handloads still clock 880 fps!!!

I was honestly expecting less. 

On the expansion test, it was a three jugger from 5 yards. Breaking the back of the third jug and coming to rest inside. 

Pretty dramatic from such a little gun and not bad expansion for the velocity. 

The trigger is different in that it’s a pivot  system that requires more of a downward pull than a straight back press. On top of that, yeah, it’s pretty wicked heavy. Enough so, that I have to hold the gun differently in my hand in order to get enough finger on the trigger to pull the trigger.....down. Normally, I like a trigger on the middle of my fingers pad.  For this gun, I have to place the joint of my first knuckle on the trigger to get the leverage I need. Doing this placed the rear knuckle of my thumb on the backstrap of the gun. Not so fun in recoil!
Nothing about this gun is fast. No fast draw. Cocking the barrel, getting the right grip, aiming, and that 20lb trigger pull. 

A fun gun.......yes. A useful gun.......for snakes and wildlife........yes. Ain’t no way in Hell this is a serious bad human defensive option. Not unless you can freeze time and get ready for the fight. 

But, I still love it because it’s cool and different.  Think I’m going to get a 3.5” barrel in 9mm for the gun as well. Seeing as how barrels are interchangeable. 

After all the serious testing..........then came the hold my beer testing. Stay tuned.........

CHIRO1989

After all the serious testing..........then came the hold my beer testing. Stay tuned.........

Shoot through your pocket, see if your shorts start on fire?

Linefinder

Serious pocket rocket imo.

Zee

In a just because we can moment, a couple buddies and I decided to see if we could shoot this sucker out to 100 yards. 

So, we started at 25 yards and each hit the target with the top barrel. 

I learned a ballistic lesson in this. I thought that, even though the bullet was rising from POA as distance increases, the slow and heavy 230gr FMJ would eventually succumb to gravity and the POI would drop back down to POA before we got to 100 yards. Nope. I held low for every distance. Half target low at 25. 

Then we moved back to 50 yards and all hit. 

I held bottom of the target for that one. 

And finally we moved to 100 yards and all hit. 

I held a half target BELOW the steel for that one!

So, my philosophy of: If you can see it, you can hit it.
Still holds true. 

Zee

I might need to find out at what point the bullets trajectory drops back to POA/POI. 😎

Zee

CHIRO1989 said:

After all the serious testing..........then came the hold my beer testing. Stay tuned.........

Shoot through your pocket, see if your shorts start on fire?

Hey, $20 is $20. I’m game. 

Ernie Bishop

I would have loved to have been there for all of what you shared and more.

"Just because we can" is almost always FUN!

Bigslug

Zee said:

Nothing about this gun is fast. No fast draw. Cocking the barrel, getting the right grip, aiming, and that 20lb trigger pull. ........Ain’t no way in Hell this is a serious bad human defensive option. Not unless you can freeze time and get ready for the fight. 

This has always been why I bounce off the derringer concept.  Kinda like the full-auto function on the .308 battle rifles - you need to spend a lot of effort bracing up and prepping to run it; it easily gets out of control; and its useful range is so short that what you're shooting it at has ample chance to not give you sufficient time to fool around with all that.

I've been fortunate in my rattlesnake encounters thus far - sufficient distance on sighting which allowed me to stand off, say "howdy little feller", and go our separate ways.  My thinking is if one wanted to force the issue, I would want to blast quickly and repeatedly - not fumble with a single action hammer without enough grip to cock quickly, re-grip after cocking, maintain sights through a heavy trigger, repeat for #2. . .
I think it is DAMN COOL that you're pushing the boundaries with the thing.   Always fun to treat it like it's the only tool you're ever going to have and really wring the tool out.

Best advice I can give:

Tugar

Got this little 22lr with wallet when father in law died. It's far more accurate than I expected it to be. Like Zee's nicer one, the trigger is REALLY heavy but expected I guess for what it is. A derringer with a light trigger could be bad. Came with the magnetic close wallet. 

Never wanted a derringer. Now I find myself wanting a centerfire version. 

zorba

Now remember, we're talking about Zee here. I don't know about the rest of youse guyz, but he could out shoot me in both speed and accuracy with pretty much any firearm one cares to name. At 1,000 yards against my 10!

Spk

Now that looks like a fun day!

Did you get a chance to Chrono the ball ammo? I know what expect from a 4 or 5 inch barrel but 2.5"... hmm?

How big is the target? Seems to be around 24" x 18", I'm guessing.

A little trigger work or maybe just some more use and, hell yeah, I would carry that around the property.

With a 176 PF, those gold dots rock!!!!👍

Justsomedude

The light primer strike: sounds like it does just the same as the Cobra derringers do. They have a pinwheel inside of them that rotates to switch between barrels and for some reason they always make insufficient contact with the firing pin on one barrel over the other. The easiest fix that I've found is to make a firing pin that's about .020 longer than the factory pin. I typically make them out of titanium and don't have to worry about it any longer. And as always I'm living my life vicariously through your exploits 😁

bullsi1911

Justsomedude said:

The light primer strike: sounds like it does just the same as the Cobra derringers do. They have a pinwheel inside of them that rotates to switch between barrels and for some reason they always make insufficient contact with the firing pin on one barrel over the other. The easiest fix that I've found is to make a firing pin that's about .020 longer than the factory pin. I typically make them out of titanium and don't have to worry about it any longer. And as always I'm living my life vicariously through your exploits 😁

Plus, it probably headspaces on the case mouth- which, on those shot loads is a radius'ed corner (see the first picture).  That probably allows it to seat just a skotch too deep in the chamber.

Those 45ACP shotshells have only pissed me off in several guns- especially revolvers.

Justsomedude

I don't know how I missed that it was a 45acp. For some reason I had it in my mind that it was a long colt.

Zee

Spk said:

Now that looks like a fun day!

Did you get a chance to Chrono the ball ammo? I know what expect from a 4 or 5 inch barrel but 2.5"... hmm?

How big is the target? Seems to be around 24" x 18", I'm guessing.

A little trigger work or maybe just some more use and, hell yeah, I would carry that around the property.

With a 176 PF, those gold dots rock!!!!👍

I didn’t think to chrono the 230gr. I can probably get that done in the next few days. Along with trying POA/POI at 200 yards!  😁

Target was 18”x24”. 

Zee

Tugar said:

Got this little 22lr with wallet when father in law died. It's far more accurate than I expected it to be. Like Zee's nicer one, the trigger is REALLY heavy but expected I guess for what it is. A derringer with a light trigger could be bad. Came with the magnetic close wallet. 

Never wanted a derringer. Now I find myself wanting a centerfire version. 

I have one of those in .32 ACP. Have thought about getting one in .22lr. 

Zee

knitepoet said:

With my limited knowledge of 45 ACP trajectories...

I say POA and POI will intersect BEFORE 200 Yards.

That's my S.W.A.G, and I'm sticking with it until PROVEN otherwise  

I’ll give that a shot. 

Zee

zorba said:

Now remember, we're talking about Zee here. I don't know about the rest of youse guyz, but he could out shoot me in both speed and accuracy with pretty much any firearm one cares to name. At 1,000 yards against my 10!

As long as it’s not a Dance-Off!

Zee

bullsi1911 said:

Justsomedude said:

The light primer strike: sounds like it does just the same as the Cobra derringers do. They have a pinwheel inside of them that rotates to switch between barrels and for some reason they always make insufficient contact with the firing pin on one barrel over the other. The easiest fix that I've found is to make a firing pin that's about .020 longer than the factory pin. I typically make them out of titanium and don't have to worry about it any longer. And as always I'm living my life vicariously through your exploits 😁

Plus, it probably headspaces on the case mouth- which, on those shot loads is a radius'ed corner (see the first picture).  That probably allows it to seat just a skotch too deep in the chamber.

Those 45ACP shotshells have only pissed me off in several guns- especially revolvers.

That’s why I hang around people smarter than me. I never thought of that. 

Duh! 

Zee

Justsomedude said:

The light primer strike: sounds like it does just the same as the Cobra derringers do. They have a pinwheel inside of them that rotates to switch between barrels and for some reason they always make insufficient contact with the firing pin on one barrel over the other. The easiest fix that I've found is to make a firing pin that's about .020 longer than the factory pin. I typically make them out of titanium and don't have to worry about it any longer. And as always I'm living my life vicariously through your exploits 😁

Hoping it’s what Bullsi said. All normal cartridges fired perfectly. 

earlyagain

Home rolled shot cases will likely throw a better charge anyway.

Keep the loaded case mouth crimped no smaller than .473 and they should head space 100%. 

Justsomedude

Zee said:

Justsomedude said:

The light primer strike: sounds like it does just the same as the Cobra derringers do. They have a pinwheel inside of them that rotates to switch between barrels and for some reason they always make insufficient contact with the firing pin on one barrel over the other. The easiest fix that I've found is to make a firing pin that's about .020 longer than the factory pin. I typically make them out of titanium and don't have to worry about it any longer. And as always I'm living my life vicariously through your exploits 😁

Hoping it’s what Bullsi said. All normal cartridges fired perfectly. 

He's likely right. Bond Arms makes a waaaay better product than Cobra ever could/would, but struck me as odd that it did what I've seen the Cobras do with having a light strike on only one barrel. I didnt pay attention to it being a 45acp headspacing on the case mouth until Bullsi pointed it out. I didn't feel dumb enough to erase my reply 😅

Spk

Zee said:

zorba said:

Now remember, we're talking about Zee here. I don't know about the rest of youse guyz, but he could out shoot me in both speed and accuracy with pretty much any firearm one cares to name. At 1,000 yards against my 10!

As long as it’s not a Dance-Off!

A dirty dance off? 😍

Justsomedude

Spk said:

Zee said:

zorba said:

Now remember, we're talking about Zee here. I don't know about the rest of youse guyz, but he could out shoot me in both speed and accuracy with pretty much any firearm one cares to name. At 1,000 yards against my 10!

As long as it’s not a Dance-Off!

A dirty dance off? 😍

In his kilt, of course...

Zee

Justsomedude said:

Zee said:

Justsomedude said:

The light primer strike: sounds like it does just the same as the Cobra derringers do. They have a pinwheel inside of them that rotates to switch between barrels and for some reason they always make insufficient contact with the firing pin on one barrel over the other. The easiest fix that I've found is to make a firing pin that's about .020 longer than the factory pin. I typically make them out of titanium and don't have to worry about it any longer. And as always I'm living my life vicariously through your exploits 😁

Hoping it’s what Bullsi said. All normal cartridges fired perfectly. 

He's likely right. Bond Arms makes a waaaay better product than Cobra ever could/would, but struck me as odd that it did what I've seen the Cobras do with having a light strike on only one barrel. I didnt pay attention to it being a 45acp headspacing on the case mouth until Bullsi pointed it out. I didn't feel dumb enough to erase my reply 😅

So, out of curiosity, why would it not fire in one barrel but work in the other? 

Justsomedude

The little pinwheel looking cam in them is slightly offset and favors one firing pin over the other. Its enough to hit the shorter pin but a hard primer will cause the firing pin to slip off the radius of the cam. From what I can tell it's just a terrible manufacturing flaw.

Bigslug

Zee said:

I didn’t think to chrono the 230gr. I can probably get that done in the next few days. 

That would be a topic of some interest. . .

I've done penetration testing with both the .38 S&W / .380/200 and .455 Webleys down in the 600 fps range and got results in the 5-7 milk jug range (4 if you count the wadcutter-ish .455 MKIV bullet).   Considering your average expanding duty load stops in 3-4, I imagine good old GI hardball will still serve, even with significant velocity loss.

TIP:  Some WEIRD bullet dynamics can happen with speeds that low.  I took part in a science project to confirm if the .380/200 British MKI bullet actually does tumble on impact (it can), and I did that by cutting soda cans into sheets and placing them in between my milk jugs.  The metal gave me a nice register of a sideways bullet profile - much like a Wile E. Coyote-shaped crater.

GunNut

That little gun is a heck lot more capable than I would have ever given it credit for!

Zee

I’m trying to decide on either a 3.5” barrel in 9mm or .40 S&W next. 

Zee

Ok, brain fart warning. I confused my .44 Spl GD handload with my .45 ACP ammo. 

The .44 Spl GD is 200gr. 

The .45 ACP GD is 185gr. 

My bad. Too many numbers to keep track of. 

Zee

knitepoet said:

Zee said:

I’m trying to decide on either a 3.5” barrel in 9mm or .40 S&W next. 

I'd pick what I had the most ammo for

Kind of a toss up. The 9mm might actually be not unpleasant to shoot. 

And a 3.5” barrel is the same as a Glock 26/27 barrel length.