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.45 Colt - Charter Arms Bulldog

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Replies

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    Machine off and install a S&W N frame FO front sight which should be just about the right height.  Then again the gun might not be worth the cost, but your gunsmith is cost free no?
    Not worth it. Not for the minimal offset. If anything, I’ll just file it down a tad and paint it like the others. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    See folks, I’m always pissed when I get them. But, once they are shooting……I accept their faults. 
    I have a 22oz 2.5” Snub Nosed Revolver in .45 Colt launching 240gr Bullets at 1,038 fps. 
    Nobody else makes that. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 3,008 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Machine off and install a S&W N frame FO front sight which should be just about the right height.  Then again the gun might not be worth the cost, but your gunsmith is cost free no?
    Not worth it. Not for the minimal offset. If anything, I’ll just file it down a tad and paint it like the others. 
    Well you can always change your mind later if you find a warm place in your heart for the “working girl”  🤣
    I’m baaaaaaaaack… 😬
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 3,008 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    See folks, I’m always pissed when I get them. But, once they are shooting……I accept their faults. 
    I have a 22oz 2.5” Snub Nosed Revolver in .45 Colt launching 240gr Bullets at 1,038 fps. 
    Nobody else makes that. 
    Yep…
    I’m baaaaaaaaack… 😬
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    Shoot something with that big wad cutter and I think you'll be on the threshold of a convert.

    I figure your reload is likely another gun. But if it's not. Round edge bullets have an edge for that use.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    Shoot something with that big wad cutter and I think you'll be on the threshold of a convert.

    I figure your reload is likely another gun. But if it's not. Round edge bullets have an edge for that use.
    On the ranch, a reload is unlikely. But, the Kubota I drive around in has a .22 lr 10/22, a Savage .223 Rem, and a Bond Arms .45/.410 Derringer. Besides the handgun on my hip. 😁
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    The Kubota sounds like a Texas reload.
     :) 
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,327 Senior Member
    Zee said:

    Yeah, Bigslug was right. . .

     I LOVE corrupting the Youth of America! :) 

    But, that got me to thinking………what if I turn them around and still seat them that deep?!?  Cavity forward like before but deep seated. 

    In theory, they should have the same velocity. No?  And they should expand like crazy at that speed!  So, if these work too and have the same POI, I might just stagger them in the gun. 
    You'll have higher volume in the case with the hollow bases backwards, so prrrrrooooobably a little less velocity that way???

    The .45 WFN crowd has a saying:  "The come pre-expanded".  I think they absolutely have good applications as HP's, but for the throw-in-your-pocket-in-a-hurry-capable-of-handling-anything, flat-first is going to have the edge.  I think it'll probably also be a better bullet at distance - - - since it's weight-forward and drag-stabilized, it might actually carry a little farther than standard WC's before it starts to wobble.

    Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to jug shoot them both ways.  I think 5-6 will stop the HP configuration.  For the flat face, I'm gonna predict 9, but you'd probably better line up a dozen with some outriggers.

    I'd probably roll it first two snakeshot, remainder as solids, and a few reloads worth of each in an ammo box in your daily driver.

    Good news is you don't seem to have a windage problem with this one.  If this is "The Load", time to set up a 25 yards and start filing that front sight.


    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,739 Senior Member
    knitepoet said:
    Zee said:
    <snip>
    In theory, they should have the same velocity. No?  And they should expand like crazy at that speed!  So, if these work too and have the same POI, I might just stagger them in the gun. 
    NO!!!

    Velocity and pressure is going to be quite a bit higher. That hollow base still leaves more capacity in the "engine room" while loading them HP style removes it
    Think of shooting a 223/40/9mm/45 that the bullet's been deeply set back. You've done the exact same thing by removing that extra room for the powder charge/gases to expand in
    My guess is you'll see higher velocities (higher pressure). How much more? Don't know but if you're loading near max in normal wadcutter mode, you'll probably be quite a bit over when they're flipped around. You no longer have the extra case volume you had before when the hollow base was at the bottom.
    If you're gonna test them anyway, use the Ruger and your Chrono.
    Let us know what you find out.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    knitepoet said:
    Zee said:
    <snip>
    In theory, they should have the same velocity. No?  And they should expand like crazy at that speed!  So, if these work too and have the same POI, I might just stagger them in the gun. 
    NO!!!

    Velocity and pressure is going to be quite a bit higher. That hollow base still leaves more capacity in the "engine room" while loading them HP style removes it
    Think of shooting a 223/40/9mm/45 that the bullet's been deeply set back. You've done the exact same thing by removing that extra room for the powder charge/gases to expand in
    Ok, that makes sense. So, no shoot?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    edited October 2021 #72
    Spk said:
    knitepoet said:
    Zee said:
    <snip>
    In theory, they should have the same velocity. No?  And they should expand like crazy at that speed!  So, if these work too and have the same POI, I might just stagger them in the gun. 
    NO!!!

    Velocity and pressure is going to be quite a bit higher. That hollow base still leaves more capacity in the "engine room" while loading them HP style removes it
    Think of shooting a 223/40/9mm/45 that the bullet's been deeply set back. You've done the exact same thing by removing that extra room for the powder charge/gases to expand in
    My guess is you'll see higher velocities (higher pressure). How much more? Don't know but if you're loading near max in normal wadcutter mode, you'll probably be quite a bit over when they're flipped around. You no longer have the extra case volume you had before when the hollow base was at the bottom.
    If you're gonna test them anyway, use the Ruger and your Chrono.
    Let us know what you find out.
    Using a Ruger makes sense. Shortest I have is 4.2” barreled. 

    So, if I use a different gun, how do I know it’s safe in the the original one? 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    Makes sense. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,327 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    On the ranch, a reload is unlikely. But, the Kubota I drive around in has a .22 lr 10/22, a Savage .223 Rem, and a Bond Arms .45/.410 Derringer. Besides the handgun on my hip. 😁
    Your wife's maiden name wouldn't happen to be Ripley, would it?


    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    Bigslug said:
    Zee said:
    On the ranch, a reload is unlikely. But, the Kubota I drive around in has a .22 lr 10/22, a Savage .223 Rem, and a Bond Arms .45/.410 Derringer. Besides the handgun on my hip. 😁
    Your wife's maiden name wouldn't happen to be Ripley, would it?



    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,739 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Spk said:
    knitepoet said:
    Zee said:
    <snip>
    In theory, they should have the same velocity. No?  And they should expand like crazy at that speed!  So, if these work too and have the same POI, I might just stagger them in the gun. 
    NO!!!

    Velocity and pressure is going to be quite a bit higher. That hollow base still leaves more capacity in the "engine room" while loading them HP style removes it
    Think of shooting a 223/40/9mm/45 that the bullet's been deeply set back. You've done the exact same thing by removing that extra room for the powder charge/gases to expand in
    My guess is you'll see higher velocities (higher pressure). How much more? Don't know but if you're loading near max in normal wadcutter mode, you'll probably be quite a bit over when they're flipped around. You no longer have the extra case volume you had before when the hollow base was at the bottom.
    If you're gonna test them anyway, use the Ruger and your Chrono.
    Let us know what you find out.
    Using a Ruger makes sense. Shortest I have is 4.2” barreled. 

    So, if I use a different gun, how do I know it’s safe in the the original one? 

    knitepoet said:
    Here's something to consider, from your own results. Moving the hollow base back, what, 1/8" between the lube groove and the flush one bumped your velocity up 140fps.

    Now consider how much more case capacity your eating up by putting the solid end in the case

    Also, if you're trying to match the velocity of your wadcutter load, you'll need to try and match the initial case volume for both.
    If you have some measuring tools (think kitchen  measuring stuff) and find out how much water those Matt's wadcutters hold in the hollow base. Once you know the volume, you'll know how long past the case mouth to seat the bullet upside down. You'll need a good crimp.
    If that sounds like too much trouble, you might want to think about a lighter charge until you match the velocity of the wadcutters that work.

    Anyway, keep us posted. 👍
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    edited October 2021 #77

    So, do I shoot those rounds in the Ruger Redhawk or not?!?  😁
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,327 Senior Member
    Zee said:

    So, do I shoot those rounds in the Ruger Redhawk or not?!?  😁
    You could seat the backwards wadcutter to midway down the cavity and have pretty close to the same internal volume you would with the cavity in the case in the flush-seat mode.

    BUT. . .I would probably adjust the powder charge down to produce them as hollowpoints rather than depart from the casemouth-flush seating depth though.  That hollow base's skirt seated out of the case is going to be exposed and really prone to denting if dropped, wearing off if pocket carried, etc...

    Yeah. . .if they're already loaded at 9 grains, test 'em in the Redhawk.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    Screw it. I’m just going to pull the bullets. No sense in risking and the data would be skewed anyway because the barrels are longer. 

    What are thoughts on seating it flush with cavity forward if I put a starting load powder charge of 6.0gr in the case and work up until I reach 1,000 fps?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    Hell, I’m just going to do one round/charge at a time until I get up close to 1,000. Then tweak it   
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,739 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Hell, I’m just going to do one round/charge at a time until I get up close to 1,000. Then tweak it   

    Sounds good to me. It shouldn't take to long. Keep us posted.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • sakodudesakodude Senior Member Posts: 4,551 Senior Member
    Just an observation but I suspect you got best performance, speed and accuracy out of the 240gr hbwc oriented properly because that’s how it was designed to be fired. The hollow base is generally intended to slug up to seal the bore and engage the rifling.
    I’d have stopped right there. Few problems that can’t be resolved with that load as is.
    unless you’re just bored then carry on :D
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    Science!!!
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 8,496 Senior Member
    Curious might be a better word than “bored.”
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    Will be about a week. Work taking away from play time. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,739 Senior Member
    Curious might be a better word than “bored.”



    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,739 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Will be about a week. Work taking away from play time. 

    :D

    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    What you guys think of this bullet?


    I’ve got to order some more of the 240gr HBWC and thought about ordering some of these too. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    No one that's well versed in the dedicated application of tools can ever resist the magnetic attraction of the bigger hammer.

    :D
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,327 Senior Member
    The hollow bases are pretty much there for goofy spec guns like .455 Webleys that were deliberately made with cylinder throats SMALLER than the barrel's groove diameter.  They can also be handy if your gun has some frame crush - it's pretty common for the bore to constrict about a thou where it screws into the frame.  I think we can safely assume Charter Arms is NOT lapping them after assembly.

    Personally, I wouldn't worry about it unless & until the barrel leads up significantly (can walk you around that park if it comes to it).  Hollow points and hollow bases are a pain in the ass to cast, and they're probably cast out of relatively soft stuff needing careful handling which is undoubtedly why Matt's is charging more for them.  Unless the gun has a specific need for the HB, you're better off without it.  A little stiffer alloy is probably better for the speeds you're trying for anyway.

    You're giving up  about 0.11" of frontal diameter with the short-nose Keith, but pickup up ease of loading them into the gun, and probably more stability downrange (though it's still regarded as a short range pill), if the conventional wisdom on wadcutters applies here.  They still hit hard.  Comes down to how many tricks you want this pony to do.




    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,464 Senior Member
    edited October 2021 #91
    If it’s not going to expand, I want a MUCH meplate as I can launch. 

    Not really interested in the Keith unless it was for plinking. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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