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Alec Baldwin kills his Director of Photography on the set of his new movie

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  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,616 Senior Member
    I agree that it's the fault of the Armorer.  I'll bet Baldwin knows about as much about guns as I know about movie cameras.  It's down to the armorer or prop wrangler.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • TugarTugar Senior Member Posts: 2,435 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio said:
    Jayhawker said:
    Gene L said:
    On The Five today, they said crew walked off the set because of "safety reasons."  I don't know if that's correct, but if the Prop Master walked off, they should have stopped the filming.  It's a low budget movie and I'm sure it's going to be a wrap now.
    Not only that but the Armorer was a young 20s woman who admitted in an interview she was not ready for the job, and that loading blanks scared her and she called her Dad for direction…. You have to be kidding me…
    Interestingly, she is Thell Reeds daughter...and has obviously been immersed in firearms safety her entire life....
    However...she's not the fool who pulled the trigger...

    For a few minutes I tried putting myself in Baldwin's shoes...imagining what I would say if I had just shot two people while acting the ads
    ..None of what I came up with had anything to do with blaming the person who gave me the gun....
    I completely disagree. If I were the armorer on a movie, I wouldn't want an untrained actor trying to check or clear anything. From my hand to his hand and back into my hand.
    100% agree. Hollyweird doesn't do it that way. Baldwin violated the VERY FIRST RULE of gun handling. I personally wouldn't sign on as a movie armorer unless I got to teach the class for anyone in the movie handling guns. 

    He played impromptu clown boy and people died. 

    Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
    Winston Churchill
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,141 Senior Member
    edited October 2021 #34
    Gene L said:
    I agree that it's the fault of the Armorer.  I'll bet Baldwin knows about as much about guns as I know about movie cameras.  It's down to the armorer or prop wrangler.
    Neither the armorer or the prop wrangled pointed that gun at another person and pulled the trigger....in the end...it's all on Baldwin whether he intended it or not...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 3,233 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    Gene L said:
    On The Five today, they said crew walked off the set because of "safety reasons."  I don't know if that's correct, but if the Prop Master walked off, they should have stopped the filming.  It's a low budget movie and I'm sure it's going to be a wrap now.
    Not only that but the Armorer was a young 20s woman who admitted in an interview she was not ready for the job, and that loading blanks scared her and she called her Dad for direction…. You have to be kidding me…
    Interestingly, she is Thell Reeds daughter...and has obviously been immersed in firearms safety her entire life....
    However...she's not the fool who pulled the trigger...

    For a few minutes I tried putting myself in Baldwin's shoes...imagining what I would say if I had just shot two people while acting the ass
    ..None of what I came up with had anything to do with blaming the person who gave me the gun....
    Actually on the article I read, she said even though her father is a well known gunsmith her firearms education/interest came late in life.  Considering she’s I think 24, what the heck is late in life?   Sounds to me like she used her last name and dad’s reputation to score the gig.  But again this is all based on what I’ve read and there’s a billion stories out there including some big inconsistencies.
    I’m baaaaaaaaack… 😬
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,746 Senior Member
    If any of this is true, heads are gonna role. Someone is gonna take the fall.
    Three crew members who were on the set last weekend told the Times there were two accidental prop gun discharges before Thursday.
    The rounds were accidentally fired October 16 by Baldwin's stunt double after he was told the gun was "cold," two of the crew members, who witnessed the discharges, told the newspaper.
    The film's production company told Deadline in a statement that it was not notified of official complaints regarding weapon or prop safety on set.
    "Cold" means the gun doesn't go bang and "Hot" means it does. The actors just trust that the gun handlers know what they're doing.
    In action movies, it's not unusual for actors to point the gun in the direction of the camera to "Get the Shot"
    Usually, the guns are plastic or "Cold" prop guns or some other safety measure in place because the cinematographer and the director are usually right behind the camera so they know what they're capturing.
    Unfortunately, if what is being reported is true then two things come to mind, budget and schedule. Being in a hurry and possibly cutting corners to keep to a schedule (going past a film shooting schedule costs money). Before principle photography even starts, the production team already knows how many days it's going to take to shoot all the scenes. Going past the shooting schedule means someone is gonna have to fork out more money. It's not uncommon for 16 hours days to become the norm. This is when people get careless and possibly cut corners because they just wanna get it all done.
    I would hope this wasn't the case on this day but, obviously, something or many things went terribly wrong.
    Prayers out to the families involved. 🙏


    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • rberglofrberglof Senior Member Posts: 2,930 Senior Member
    Words from a veteran prop master.
    " if someone actually got killed, which they did, that would have to be a live round of ammunition.”
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 3,233 Senior Member
    This article summarizes the issues with the armored and the problems they had previous to the incident.  Pretty scary.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10124421/The-armorer-Alec-Baldwins-film-Rust-gave-gun-11-year-old-actress-sources-say.html

    Apparently she had history if F-ups going back to previous jobs too!!!
    I’m baaaaaaaaack… 😬
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 25,040 Senior Member
    Interesting article. How the **** did live ammo get anywhere NEAR the set? But the picture of Baldwin with a smartphone in one hand, and a mask in the other tells me everything I need to know...
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • Some_MookSome_Mook Posts: 603 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    Gene L said:
    I agree that it's the fault of the Armorer.  I'll bet Baldwin knows about as much about guns as I know about movie cameras.  It's down to the armorer or prop wrangler.
    ...in the end...it's all on Baldwin whether he intended it or not...
    In the real world, yes.  However the chances of Baldwin being held criminally liable in the same manner that you or I would if one of us handed the other a firearm and the one who received it unintentionally shot and killed another human being with it because they did not think it was loaded is effectively zero.  

    Legally, in the end, it will not be "all on Baldwin"
    "If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace." - Thomas Paine
    "I know my place in the world and it ain’t standing next to Jerry Miculek" - Zee
  • dlddld Member Posts: 456 Member
    Buuut Baldwin pointed the gun at some one that was not an actor and pulled the trigger. He should of known better if it wasn't in the script he was an idiot to do so. I am sure sooner or later he is going to blame the gun and use it to try to wiggle out of it and press gun control.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,396 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    How the **** did live ammo get anywhere NEAR the set? 
    Gonna take a wild guess on that one:  Need for appearances + lack of preparation + carelessness.

    We can probably all think of a ton of movie scenes with real-looking ammo in belt loops, being loaded into a Sharps or Peacemaker, hanging in links off of a machinegun, or being zipped off a stripper clip into a bolt action.

    Probably 99.9% if not 100% dummy rounds, but if you have to capture "the look" and are in a hurry, who knows?  For that matter, if it's properly supervised, who cares? Unfortunately, it's probably an industry filled with folks who don't know Rule #1 - It's ALWAYS loaded, even when it isn't.

    I dunno. . .Probably just a tragic C.F., but there's enough reports of incompetence and labor discontent coming out of this set that it's all starting to feel a little conspiratorial
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • Some_MookSome_Mook Posts: 603 Senior Member
    edited October 2021 #43
    dld said:
    Buuut Baldwin pointed the gun at some one that was not an actor and pulled the trigger. He should of known better if it wasn't in the script he was an idiot to do so. 
    I am trying to think of a single movie or TV show that depicted the use of firearms where having a firearm pointed and discharged in the direction of the audience (camera) was never shown.  There have been depictions of cameras and camera operators as actors, but in general, the camera and operator are not actors in most cinematic productions.

    I do not have all the details, so I cannot intelligently say if Baldwin went off script, or was clowning around inappropriately.  If you have that detail, and the action of pointing the firearm in the direction of the camera and pulling the trigger was not something he was supposed to do, then yes, that action was idiotic - but would he be convicted by a jury for a crime?

    Jurors are tasked with deciding if an action, or inaction was reasonable.  It would not take much of a defense lawyer to line up a thousand actors who have been in scenes where they carry and possibly discharge a 'prop' weapon and have every last one of them testify that they NEVER checked to see if the prop weapon handed them by the prop master was in battery with live ammunition, and that to do so would have never crossed their minds.  They are playing at make-believe.

    Find me 12 jurors who would decide that, based on the history of theatrics, a reasonable actor / person would have never handled a weapon without checking battery, and never point a weapon in the direction of something they did not intend to destroy, and never had their finger on a trigger until they were ready to fire the weapon at an established target and knowing it was safe to do so and the action presented no danger to persons or property situated behind the intended target and within range of a projectile while acting in a scene of an entertainment production, and you may have a case.

    I am not defending Baldwin in any way, and I tend not to agree with the politics of most of the 'Hollywood' types (and most of California, Oregon, Washington State, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts...) but the people who frequent this forum tend to be normal, intelligent and educated regarding the safe use of firearms and are likely to condemn this incident based on their own understandings of what is reasonable behavior when handling firearms.  The entertainment industry's 'norms' are vastly different than our own.
    "If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace." - Thomas Paine
    "I know my place in the world and it ain’t standing next to Jerry Miculek" - Zee
  • PFDPFD Senior Member Posts: 1,735 Senior Member
    Something strange to me is that the 24 year old armorer girl said "the scariest thing was loading the blanks" So she called her dad for some advice.

    There were also reports of her loading blanks in an unsafe manner.

    What am I missing here?
    That's all I got.

    Paul
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 12,190 Senior Member
    PFD said:
    Something strange to me is that the 24 year old armorer girl said "the scariest thing was loading the blanks" So she called her dad for some advice.

    There were also reports of her loading blanks in an unsafe manner.

    What am I missing here?
    To me it appears as a way to shift blame from Baldwin.  He preaches about how dangerous guns are but makes millions pretending to use them.  One would think he would know a little about something he speaks out about.  Placing blame elsewhere is step one for a defense 
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 12,190 Senior Member

    'Rust' assistant director had a history of unsafe practices, prop maker says


    Headline on Yahoo news.   The finger pointing begins
    You don't see many repeating that Scenes are shot so that it appears that the gun is pointed at someone, but actually aimed in a safe place.  Baldwin aimed directly with a human and pulled the trigger.  
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,616 Senior Member
    I saw on another source that the Assistant Director is supposed to handle guns before the actor gets them.  According to the same source, the A.D. handed Baldwin the weapon and said it was "cold."  So another factor in this convoluted case.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • JustsomedudeJustsomedude Posts: 1,322 Senior Member
    Maybe it wasn't an accident?
    We've been conditioned to believe that obedience is virtuous and voting is freedom- 
  • ilove22silove22s Senior Member Posts: 1,511 Senior Member
    accidents happen, no matter how much you try not to make them happen.

    something, somewhere failed. 


    The ears never lie.

    - Don Burt
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,697 Senior Member
    I just read that some of the crew took the guns off site to shoot for 'fun'....  probably where the bullet came from?
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 3,233 Senior Member
    I hate to think this way but humans being the scum they are and having “Union” issues… well…
    I’m baaaaaaaaack… 😬
  • mitdr774mitdr774 Member Posts: 1,772 Senior Member
    I hate to think this way but humans being the scum they are and having “Union” issues… well…
    I would like to think that we are past that point in time.  Based on the multiple complaints of prior incidents of unsafe gun handling practices and discharges being one of the main reasons the union crew walked off at the start of the day, I suspect it isnt one of them that took the first step to allow this to happen.  Even if they did, it should have been caught by one of the many people to handle the firearm after they could have even had a chance to tamper with it.
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 3,233 Senior Member
    I was actually playing with an older Holliwood prop gun from a few years back.  My new party LGS bough it in an auction from a prop house.  It was a popular type from years ago before the Italians started making affordable Peacemakers.

    they took a Ruger Blackhawk and an “armorer” had ground the top strap sights and sharp edges off and welded up the sight channel to a rounded profile.  Then the cut off the barrel level with the ejector housing and crowned it.  As a last step they welded a spot about 1/2” inside the front of the chamber so real ammo could not be chambered but blanks could be (they are shorter).  Interesting piece to say the least.
    I’m baaaaaaaaack… 😬
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,141 Senior Member
    Still kind of fuming about this...looks like the media and others are doing their level best to shift the blame in this mess to anybody but the horses ass that pulled the trigger.....

    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,616 Senior Member
    Count me in the group of assholes that think it's not Alec Baldwin's fault.  In fact, it's the fault of whoever loaded the gun with a live round and whoever claimed to be the Armorer.   I don't like him but think blame should be placed properly on where it belongs.  Not a union fan either, but if the gun had been in possession of a qualified Union member, this tragedy would not have happened.  If it had been in possession of ANYONE who knew the first thing about gun safety, it would not have happened.  Baldwin was also the producer of the film and possibly wanted to rush things for the sake of saving money.  A costly lesson here.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 14,289 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    Still kind of fuming about this...looks like the media and others are doing their level best to shift the blame in this mess to anybody but the horses ass that pulled the trigger.....

    I am pretty sure Baldwin was told by an armorer not to point a prop gun at someone and pull the trigger, cold or not, I cannot imagine that is not SOP on a set, too many people have been injured with prop guns on sets, if he was given the idea that what he did was safe to do I would be shocked.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • PFDPFD Senior Member Posts: 1,735 Senior Member
    I still want to know what the people saw that made them complain that the armorer gal was loading blanks dangerously?
    Was she using a hammer?
    That's all I got.

    Paul
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 3,233 Senior Member
    edited October 2021 #58
    The more I read about this the more I think it was misconstrued or expressed poorly by the young “armorer” and she actually meant loading blanks as in making blanks, which is a bit of artwork. I doubt she really meant just chambering them into a gun.  That would be just ridiculous if really the case.
    I’m baaaaaaaaack… 😬
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,996 Senior Member
    From what I have read:
    It is SOP on set to NEVER point any prop gun at a person, blank firing or not because there is ALWAYS a chance of a projectile. The camera does the aiming in post production. He said to the dead lady, (paraphrase) How about I shoot you? before shooting her. So AB violated the safety rule.

    The armorer should have had the prop in their hands until the prop went to the hands of the actor, and then secured it after. The armorer violated the safety rule.

    The production company allowed the prop gun to be out of the armorers control. They violated the safety rules.

    AB is absolutely at fault, as is the armorer and the production company. However, AB pointed the gun at a person and fired it in violation of the safety rules knowing that there was a chance of a  projectile.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 3,233 Senior Member
    As far as blame is concerned there is PLENTY to go around because apparently MANY industry standard protocols, safety layers and personnel responsibilities were broken or outright skipped to produce the ultimate tragic outcome.  But the violation of the MOST basic safety rules of gun handling:

    1- All guns are loaded
    2- Never point ANY gun at anything you don’t want to destroy

    falls on the hands of AB.  He should have never been handling ANY firearms without this safety education.  So in the end it was AB that pulled the trigger so he does bear the ultimate responsibility.  

    But no self-accountability will be a part of this.  As an actor, EVERYTHING is done for these Prima Donnas so he will just shed all the blame on to the peons that are supposed to serve him.
    I’m baaaaaaaaack… 😬
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,141 Senior Member
    The only way I see the armorer being at fault is if she put the gun in the hands of a child or an idiot............wait....hmmmm...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
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