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Alec Baldwin kills his Director of Photography on the set of his new movie

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  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,467 Senior Member
    Gene L said:

    Baldwin wasn't arrested on the spot for sound legal reasons.  He MAY be charged with negligent homicide.  Someone seems like should be charged but it's up to the DA as to who is charged. 
    It's entirely possible that the person most significantly responsible for this incident was one of the two that got shot.

    The director and director of photography - both of whom would have a major hand in who and what goes on on the set.  Lots of speculation about bungling prop masters.  Maybe rookie prop masters lacking confidence to stand up to the boss and say "OH HELL NO!"  But ya got ask, who HIRED said individual?
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,644 Senior Member
    edited November 2021 #93
    Baldwin is the producer and in theory, at least, he is responsible for hiring all of those people.  Although in practice, the hiring is probably sub-contracted.  When he was handed the gun, the AD who handed it to him said, "Cold gun," which meant unloaded gun.  He was wrong.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 4,425 Senior Member
    Gene L said:


    Is it confirmed that Baldwin said, "Maybe I'll shoot you." 
    I don't think much is confirmed at this point, other than a live gun was fired and two people were hit, one fatally.  There were some reports supposedly from anonymous sources who were at the scene that Baldwin out of frustration or jokingly pointed the gun at them and stated something to the affect of, "maybe I'll just shoot you, then!" I've seen other reports that say something similar, but the phrasing is not quite the same and gives a different impression. It seems to me that the reporting that Baldwin stated something giving the impression it was on purpose, although jokingly, have been pretty well pushed out of the narrative, for whatever reason. Time will tell.

    As far as charges, it's been my experience that it's highly unlikely in New Mexico for there to be no charges in a situation in which someone is killed, even if unintentional. My guess, and it is just a guess, is that there will be charges, it will involve a plea agreement, fines and possibly unsupervised probation and it'll be done. But, this is Santa Fe. Highly liberal area, very liberal politics, dealing with highly influential and liberal California connections. It could very well just disappear. I highly doubt there will be a big, publicized case and trial on it.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,644 Senior Member
    Agree with pleas, agreements, and no one goes to jail.  This is a major case and will be examined by pundits and lawyers for as long as it lasts, and then some.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 3,513 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    Agree with pleas, agreements, and no one goes to jail.  This is a major case and will be examined by pundits and lawyers for as long as it lasts, and then some.
    This, and most of anything that comes up will be based on public perception/pressure of a need to charge someone with something if anything at all, like the lawyers in ST. Louis pleading guilty to some small charge since there was nothing really they could be charged with in the first place but the MOB wanted them charged with something…

    Gun safety rules are NOT law.  So at the end of the day it’s broken down into two cases (God I HAVE TO stop spending so much time with Criminal Defense Attorneys 😁).

    Criminal: Where any laws (Federal, State, City Ordinances etc.) actually broken that could lead to someone getting CRIMINALLY prosecuted?  I do not see AB having broken any laws, at least with the information that has come out.  Ignorance and stupidity are not criminal offenses, even when they should be.  There is no legally mandated training to just handle a firearm.

    The police, prosecutors, DA stating that you can’t rule out criminal charges is more of a formality (they HAVE to say that to protect themselves) than anything else.  Someone died so they HAVE TO investigate as a potential homicide (unlawful killing of another human).  Even legit cases of self-Defence get investigated that way.  The Texas Church shooting we all remember from 2 years ago?  A Grand Jury JUST decided about 1-2 months ago that it was justifiable and no charges would be brought up against the guy who killed the bad guy.

    Civil:  NOW we are talking.  There is easily provable negligence in the part of someone(s) since it was someone’s job to make sure those guns were not loaded.  Once that is established then you have to decide who will be suing who , for how much and that will take YEARS to sort out.
    I’m baaaaaaaaack… 😬
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 4,425 Senior Member
    While at this point it's not clear if criminal charges will be filed, I tend to disagree to an extent.  New Mexico statute states;  

    30-2-3. Manslaughter.

    Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice.

    A. Voluntary manslaughter consists of manslaughter committed upon a sudden quarrel or in the heat of passion.

    Whoever commits voluntary manslaughter is guilty of a third degree felony resulting in the death of a human being.

    B. Involuntary manslaughter consists of manslaughter committed in the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to felony, or in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death in an unlawful manner or without due caution and circumspection.

    Whoever commits involuntary manslaughter is guilty of a fourth degree felony.

    The facts as we know it at this point; Alec Baldwin fired a real firearm. The projectile from that firearm injured one person and killed another. He fired the firearm in the commission of a lawful act. He knew or should have known that he was holding a firearm. Regardless of his belief of the condition of that gun, he knew he held a gun, knew he was pointing it at people and he pulled the trigger without due caution. Had he done the same thing without pointing the weapon at a person, it would have been with due caution and nobody would have been injured.

    I'm not saying I necessarily agree with criminal charges or don't. I'm just saying that, based on statute alone, charges are possible. The report from the investigation will go to the District Attorney. If they decide to file charges, a long and drawn out process will start and ultimately it will depend on a grand jury to indict or not indict. That's where I think, if there are charges, it will be plead out. Especially with the massive backlog of cases waiting to be seen due to covid restrictions slowing things down for the past nearly two years.

    There will certainly be civil suits and I'd be willing to bet it will be settled out of court for a lot of money and the terms of the settlement will not be public. I think the civil suits are the biggest reason for all the posturing in the media right now. Attorneys were made aware of the incident probably as LE was responding to the scene.

  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 3,513 Senior Member
    Jay said:
    While at this point it's not clear if criminal charges will be filed, I tend to disagree to an extent.  New Mexico statute states;  

    30-2-3. Manslaughter.

    Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice.

    A. Voluntary manslaughter consists of manslaughter committed upon a sudden quarrel or in the heat of passion.

    Whoever commits voluntary manslaughter is guilty of a third degree felony resulting in the death of a human being.

    B. Involuntary manslaughter consists of manslaughter committed in the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to felony, or in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death in an unlawful manner or without due caution and circumspection.

    Whoever commits involuntary manslaughter is guilty of a fourth degree felony.

    The facts as we know it at this point; Alec Baldwin fired a real firearm. The projectile from that firearm injured one person and killed another. He fired the firearm in the commission of a lawful act. He knew or should have known that he was holding a firearm. Regardless of his belief of the condition of that gun, he knew he held a gun, knew he was pointing it at people and he pulled the trigger without due caution. Had he done the same thing without pointing the weapon at a person, it would have been with due caution and nobody would have been injured.

    I'm not saying I necessarily agree with criminal charges or don't. I'm just saying that, based on statute alone, charges are possible. The report from the investigation will go to the District Attorney. If they decide to file charges, a long and drawn out process will start and ultimately it will depend on a grand jury to indict or not indict. That's where I think, if there are charges, it will be plead out. Especially with the massive backlog of cases waiting to be seen due to covid restrictions slowing things down for the past nearly two years.

    There will certainly be civil suits and I'd be willing to bet it will be settled out of court for a lot of money and the terms of the settlement will not be public. I think the civil suits are the biggest reason for all the posturing in the media right now. Attorneys were made aware of the incident probably as LE was responding to the scene.

    And actually I agree with you basically 100%, and like you , I'm on no side of this fence.  I actually feel bad for AB because regardless of who you are this should not happen to anyone.

    Let's focus for a moment on this: 

    ..."in the commission of (a) an unlawful act not amounting to felony, or in the commission of a (b) "lawful act which might produce death in an unlawful manner or without due caution and circumspection"..."

    And this is where a REALLY good lawyer is worth their weight in gold.  (a) will probably be written off swiftly.  On the other hand (b), specifically "due caution", has a relative high level of complexity when proving.  I would argue that the exercise of "due caution and circumspection" was the responsibility of the folks in charge of inspecting the firearm.  They had a direct responsibility of making sure due caution was used by following the procedures adopted by the industry to deal with the use of firearms on a movie set and that when a handgun was declared "cold" and handed to an actor, it was in fact a harmless instrument.  AB is only an actor and his lawyer will argue that he holds no responsibility over the securing the weapon and it was reasonable for him to assume others in charge of that aspect of production had done their job, and again there is no legal mandate for him to know/follow the rules of gun safety as we understand them.

    As an example, if I'm driving drunk, or exceeding the speed limit or texting while driving a rental car, and because of this I end up killing someone, I can be charged with manslaughter.  But If I rent a car from Hertz and the mechanic at Hertz gave me a vehicle with faulty brakes because he was negligent in the performance of his duties I should not be.  The key words being "should not".

    But again, facts and law do not always meet so this could go south on the criminal side for a lot of folks, especially AB easily.  AND as the money guy, both as the movie producer and a wealthy actor, he will be the target of EVERY lawsuit.
    I’m baaaaaaaaack… 😬
  • JustsomedudeJustsomedude Posts: 1,341 Senior Member
    I don't like the man by any means but in reality, it was an accident. Prison is supposed to be about reform and not revenge. How do you reform a person that didn't have ill intentions from the start? Of course I also understand that our judicial system is complete crap. They reform people by handing out multiple life sentences like it's candy on Halloween night. My .002 
    We've been conditioned to believe that obedience is virtuous and voting is freedom- 
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 3,513 Senior Member
    For perspective, you guys remember the older daughter on Poltergeist?  Her abusive boyfriend killed her!!!!!!  

    From wikipedia:

    "On October 30, 1982, Dunne was strangled by her ex-boyfriend, John Thomas Sweeney, in the driveway of her West Hollywood home and fell into a coma, passing away five days later on November 4, 1982. In a court case which gained significant media coverage, Sweeney was convicted of voluntary manslaughter in Dunne's death, and served three and a half years in prison."

    Don't you love California?!?!?!?
    I’m baaaaaaaaack… 😬
  • N454casullN454casull Member Posts: 675 Senior Member
    If he was handed the gun and the scene said “hold the gun to your head and pull the trigger” would he have just trusted the person who gave him the gun or checked it first? 
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,644 Senior Member
    How easy is it to check a SA revolver to see it's loaded with blanks?  Does he even know how to do this?
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,766 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    How easy is it to check a SA revolver to see it's loaded with blanks?  Does he even know how to do this?
    Can't answer #2, but #1's pretty damned easy.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 3,513 Senior Member
    I'm NOT trying to justify his actions in ANY way.  Just trying to point out folks, logic, common sense and the law have almost nothing in common.  Lots of stuff that is outright idiotic and irresponsible is NOT a crime.
    I’m baaaaaaaaack… 😬
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 4,425 Senior Member
    Isn’t accidental shootings with firearms one of the things anti firearm types, such as Hollywood celebrities, all about fixing when it comes to gun control? Maybe he should have had a trigger lock on his gun.. 🤪

    Or, maybe since it’s known he would be handling real firearms, he should be like everyone else and be responsible for his own actions. Something tells me if someone handed me a gun and yelled “cold gun” right before I shot someone with it, I’d be the one to go down for it… but then, I don’t have people to put makeup on me, tell me what to wear, tell me where to stand, tell me how to act, and tell me my gun isn’t loaded. Maybe, as a full grown adult, you could learn how to properly handle such weapons and learn the safety rules that come along with it rather than saying, “I was just doing what I was told!” Funny how accountability is different for some than others..

    There were multiple failures that lead to the accident. There is no need for firearms capable of firing real ammo to be on the set, much less real ammo. There was no need to point the gun at people AND pull the trigger for a rehearsal. And there is no excuse for someone, celebrity or not, to not have some basic knowledge of the weapon he was assigned to use. 

    My biggest issue, aside from the accountability issue, is the exact same things they preach in support of gun control, are the exact same things they ignore and then make excuses for. 
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 4,425 Senior Member
    Wonder what would have happened if a similar “accident” happened to Tom Sellek?
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 3,513 Senior Member
    Jay said:
    Wonder what would have happened if a similar “accident” happened to Tom Sellek?
    They would be looking for a tall tree, rope in hand…. 
    I’m baaaaaaaaack… 😬
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 3,513 Senior Member
    Jay said:
    Isn’t accidental shootings with firearms one of the things anti firearm types, such as Hollywood celebrities, all about fixing when it comes to gun control? Maybe he should have had a trigger lock on his gun.. 🤪

    Or, maybe since it’s known he would be handling real firearms, he should be like everyone else and be responsible for his own actions. Something tells me if someone handed me a gun and yelled “cold gun” right before I shot someone with it, I’d be the one to go down for it… but then, I don’t have people to put makeup on me, tell me what to wear, tell me where to stand, tell me how to act, and tell me my gun isn’t loaded. Maybe, as a full grown adult, you could learn how to properly handle such weapons and learn the safety rules that come along with it rather than saying, “I was just doing what I was told!” Funny how accountability is different for some than others..

    There were multiple failures that lead to the accident. There is no need for firearms capable of firing real ammo to be on the set, much less real ammo. There was no need to point the gun at people AND pull the trigger for a rehearsal. And there is no excuse for someone, celebrity or not, to not have some basic knowledge of the weapon he was assigned to use. 

    My biggest issue, aside from the accountability issue, is the exact same things they preach in support of gun control, are the exact same things they ignore and then make excuses for. 
    And that goes right to the heart of the matter, and it’s the argument his lawyer will be hanging on to defend him.  “As an actor he’s used to having a whole team of folks doing everything for him…”.  Hell also use the many other instances in which he used handguns on films in exactly the same manner and nothing happened so he would have expected a similar outcome.  It’s all about justifying your perspective effectively.

    I’m baaaaaaaaack… 😬
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 4,425 Senior Member
    You’re right. Doesn’t have to make sense. 

    Also consider, if there are any court proceedings, this is Santa Fe. A place where things rarely make sense… this is a city with regulations that all buildings have to be the same color to avoid scaring away the migrating bats… 
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 4,425 Senior Member
    I also find it funny that the state just passed regulations banning fire arms in the state capital building. Until now, that was legal. Guess they were afraid Alec Baldwin might show up…
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 3,513 Senior Member
    Jay said:
    You’re right. Doesn’t have to make sense. 

    Also consider, if there are any court proceedings, this is Santa Fe. A place where things rarely make sense… this is a city with regulations that all buildings have to be the same color to avoid scaring away the migrating bats… 
    You’re kidding me!!!

    Jay said:
    I also find it funny that the state just passed regulations banning fire arms in the state capital building. Until now, that was legal. Guess they were afraid Alec Baldwin might show up…
    🤣🤣🤣
    I’m baaaaaaaaack… 😬
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 4,425 Senior Member
    Jay said:
    You’re right. Doesn’t have to make sense. 

    Also consider, if there are any court proceedings, this is Santa Fe. A place where things rarely make sense… this is a city with regulations that all buildings have to be the same color to avoid scaring away the migrating bats… 
    You’re kidding me!!!


    I will say, the part about the bats is just what I've been told through word of mouth. So I don't know that for a fact. But I do know the city code says buildings "shall predominantly be brown, tan, or local earth tones."  You can drive through Santa Fe on I25 and almost miss it. It just blends into the surroundings. I guess some part of it is also keeping with the traditional look of old adobe buildings.
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 3,513 Senior Member
    A good defense attorney will always craft an alternative plausible scenario to create “reasonable doubt”.   Basically now the potential prosecutor has to take into consideration that since he needs to convince the jury “beyond reasonable doubt” he will need to actually disprove this scenario too.  In some cases this proves so difficult that it actually discourages prosecution.

    Heres a good explanation of “reasonable doubt” in case anyone is interested.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_doubt

    I’m baaaaaaaaack… 😬
  • orchidmanorchidman Senior Member Posts: 8,367 Senior Member

    Still enjoying the trip of a lifetime and making the best of what I have.....
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 14,378 Senior Member
    orchidman said:

    For the win!
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 14,378 Senior Member

    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 14,378 Senior Member
    Well crap, wrong thread, if a Mod would take the time to move this to the meme thread, I am sure a huge buck will appear in a shooting lane this weekend for that Mod
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 12,134 Senior Member
    It will only allow me to delete it.  Will that get me a Racoon and a spike?
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,467 Senior Member
    It does get sadder. . .Now Baldwin is saying there should be police officers on set to supervise the firearms work.  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/alec-baldwin-shooting-rust-police-officers-movie-tv-sets-guns/

    Given that I've gotten the call more than once from guys in the field asking how to open and clear single action revolvers, TC Contenders, and break open single shots that needed the hammers eased down before the lever would swing, or apply the stick-down-a-muzzle-loader-to-check-for-a-charge trick, I'm not sure how an active cop who's probably only ever had formal training on a Glock, AR-15, and 870 will be able to help him out on the set of a Western.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    Well I'm not ready to reach for a pitchfork. Some Dr Scholl's mouth powder might be in order.
    :-)
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,163 Senior Member
    Bigslug said:
    It does get sadder. . .Now Baldwin is saying there should be police officers on set to supervise the firearms work.  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/alec-baldwin-shooting-rust-police-officers-movie-tv-sets-guns/

    Given that I've gotten the call more than once from guys in the field asking how to open and clear single action revolvers, TC Contenders, and break open single shots that needed the hammers eased down before the lever would swing, or apply the stick-down-a-muzzle-loader-to-check-for-a-charge trick, I'm not sure how an active cop who's probably only ever had formal training on a Glock, AR-15, and 870 will be able to help him out on the set of a Western.
    Yep...you said that perfectly...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
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