'Nother new Springfield Rifle

breamfisher

It's the Saint Edge ATC.  For "Accurized Tactical Chassis."  The lower's monolithic (proprietary) with a forward extension to free float the barrel.  You can get a standard model (black, SOPMOD stock), or an Elite model in tactical poop with a LaRue trigger and B5 Precision stock (which installs on a carbine buffer tube, it seems.)  Comes with a Sub-MOA guarantee.

The standard model weighs 9 lb, 8 oz., the Elite model 10 lb., 1 oz., don't know if that's loaded, but without an optic.  A military Mk12 SPR weighs 10 lb. loaded with an illuminated, variable power optic.  I included the SPR specs because I have a feeling that's what the Springfield might be often compared to.

https://www.springfield-armory.com/saint-series/saint-edge-atc-ar-15-rifles/





I'm not sure this rifle answers a question anyone was asking....

jbp-ohio

There are plenty of accurate AND not completely pig butt ugly AR's out there......

Wambli Ska

jbp-ohio said:

There are plenty of accurate AND not completely pig butt ugly AR's out there......

Agreed, but at $1,500 entry point with a guarantee of MOA or better out of the box it will appeal to many folks.  It's not a bad idea for a PD cruiser carbine/precision rifle.  Mount a decent 1-6x scope and you have a double duty gun.  Those guys almost never have to break 100 yards anyway.

Varmintmist

https://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=252

rra has been doing it for years and it doesnt look like a bad copy of a star wars blaster

Zee

Most guns are quickly moving out of my willingness to pay for them. 

breamfisher

Turns out the ATC is based on/a rebadged Drake Associates Athena.

https://drakeassociates.us/product/athena-precision-chassis-tactical-rifle-light-caliber-system-5-56-5/

Bigslug

"Lower machined from 6061 aluminum"

I believe that's the stuff the machinists refer to as "cheese".  No thanks! 

Other than that, I think they got a couple things right.  The Saint Victor doesn't have a full-length rail at 12:00, which a lot of guys want for flexibility in where to put pressure pads or red dots. Full 9:00, 3:00, and 6:00 rails are out of fashion, but this allows mounting of lights at 10:00 and 2:00 - pretty popular.  The half length rail at 6:00 on the forend tip is nice because you can direct-bolt your bipod.

But still, I'd prefer not to mount my fire control group in "cheese".

Diver43

Bigslug said:

"Lower machined from 6061 aluminum"

I believe that's the stuff the machinists refer to as "cheese".  No thanks! 

Other than that, I think they got a couple things right.  The Saint Victor doesn't have a full-length rail at 12:00, which a lot of guys want for flexibility in where to put pressure pads or red dots. Full 9:00, 3:00, and 6:00 rails are out of fashion, but this allows mounting of lights at 10:00 and 2:00 - pretty popular.  The half length rail at 6:00 on the forend tip is nice because you can direct-bolt your bipod.

But still, I'd prefer not to mount my fire control group in "cheese".

Isn't 6061 aluminum used because it has better heat transfer for us in guns?
I remember the late Tennmike talking about it

Bigslug

Not a bad brief tutorial here: https://youtu.be/wEqygJhpVnE

breamfisher

I doubt that for most folks who buy this rifle, most likely an overwhelming majority, won't put the rifle in a situation where the alloy of their receiver will matter. 

JasonMPD

Using aesthetics to compensate for sub-par manufacturing...Strike Industries much?  The most legitimate rifle sold under the SA brand name is the new VHS-2 ("Hellion") imported from Croatia.  It's an actually military trials rifle that came in 2nd to the H&K 416 during the French mil rifle trials several years ago.  Allegedly SA is importing it in the original mil configuration, sans full auto.  It's the only non-hobby-grade rifle they sell (I didn't forget the M1a, either...).

Bigslug

I mulled this over a little more. . .

Much like the thread we had on the new Federal .30 Super Carry, I think they're introducing an answer in search of a question:

I was involved in NRA Highpower Rifle competition in the 1990's and early 2000's when the AR-15 was beginning to gain acceptance as a serious target platform and take over that game from the M14's and bolt actions.

Those were probably some of the earliest free-float handguards, and they had to be clever about it because - in the Service Rifle category at least - the gun had to externally look like a stock M16.

The handguards were attached to the rifle back at the barrel nut area.  Never mind standing the rifle up on a bipod - in this game, you're strapping a sling onto your bicep and putting so much tension on it that your fingers can turn purple.  That sling is attached at the front of the handguard where it will put maximum leverage at the point of contact - back at the barrel nut.

These guns are capable of chewing the 6" X-ring out of a 600 yard target all day long, and the more stalwart participants have successfully taken them out to 1000.  Half-minute or better guns folks.

Odd that after over 20 years, this is the first I'm hearing of outside pressure translating down the handguard to the barrel nut being a major, accuracy-stealing problem.

But thinking like the armorer in a communist state that I am, I'm a little nervous about integrating so much of the rifle's structure into the serialized, regulated part of the gun.  The nice thing about having all that stuff attached to the upper is, if you trash something, rebuild the upper, and the lower is mostly immune.  Catastrophic damage to this lower is likely to be, well, catastrophic.  My dabbling in Lee Enfields has sensitized me to this a bit - in military circles, enough guys regularly went to the ground hard enough for crushed magazines to be a known thing among today's collectors.  Now give that impact 18" of leverage from the unsupported front of the gun to do it's damage - - to an assembly milled from "cheese".  Maybe I'm wrong to be concerned here. . .but I'm concerned here.

This is to say nothing about the AR's cool ability to totally reconfigure the rifle with an upper swap.  Kinda gone with this platform.

breamfisher

Reading around the interwebz, the biggest critique of the rifle is...
It's not spectacularly accurate. It delivers everything that's promised, but not amazingly. 

A factory AR that is sub-MOA registers a solid "meh."

Think about that. Aesthetics aside, a sub-MOA rifle is unimpressive. 

I agree, the rifle is ugly. The proprietary lower is weird and of questionable value. But the folks unimpressed with the accuracy are old enough to remember the days where 2 MOA in a factory gun was good. 

I guess to be exceptional now ARs need to shoot below. 5" at 100 yds.?

shotgunshooter3

Big yawn for me. Speaking personally, I think this same higher accuracy can be achieved using a good barrel, and a very stout barrel nut mated to a good handguard/rail. PLUS you can still use MILSPEC parts.

shotgunshooter3

JasonMPD said:

Using aesthetics to compensate for sub-par manufacturing...Strike Industries much?  The most legitimate rifle sold under the SA brand name is the new VHS-2 ("Hellion") imported from Croatia.  It's an actually military trials rifle that came in 2nd to the H&K 416 during the French mil rifle trials several years ago.  Allegedly SA is importing it in the original mil configuration, sans full auto.  It's the only non-hobby-grade rifle they sell (I didn't forget the M1a, either...).

This is, unfortunately, the way Springfield seems to have gone, especially with their rifles (except maybe the elusive M1A Super Match?). Similar vein for a lot of their handguns. Fortunately they still produce the TRP in various dressings, and the ubiquitous SA Professional.

I'm reaching the point where most new guns don't do much for me that my current collection won't do. Any purchases I'm eying now are just upgrades from what I already have. Money better spent in ammo, game tags, match entry fees, etc most likely. 

JKP

breamfisher said:

Reading around the interwebz, the biggest critique of the rifle is...
It's not spectacularly accurate. It delivers everything that's promised, but not amazingly. 

A factory AR that is sub-MOA registers a solid "meh."

Think about that. Aesthetics aside, a sub-MOA rifle is unimpressive. 

I agree, the rifle is ugly. The proprietary lower is weird and of questionable value. But the folks unimpressed with the accuracy are old enough to remember the days where 2 MOA in a factory gun was good. 

I guess to be exceptional now ARs need to shoot below. 5" at 100 yds.?

Yeah, it is odd how some folks seem to expect sub MOA in ARs now while most of the factory stuff won't even approach sub MOA. Especially if the NRA approach to measuring accuracy is used.

breamfisher

shotgunshooter3 said:

JasonMPD said:

Using aesthetics to compensate for sub-par manufacturing...Strike Industries much?  The most legitimate rifle sold under the SA brand name is the new VHS-2 ("Hellion") imported from Croatia.  It's an actually military trials rifle that came in 2nd to the H&K 416 during the French mil rifle trials several years ago.  Allegedly SA is importing it in the original mil configuration, sans full auto.  It's the only non-hobby-grade rifle they sell (I didn't forget the M1a, either...).

This is, unfortunately, the way Springfield seems to have gone, especially with their rifles (except maybe the elusive M1A Super Match?). Similar vein for a lot of their handguns. Fortunately they still produce the TRP in various dressings, and the ubiquitous SA Professional.

Only problem with the TRP is that at least in recent iterations, they've shifted them to MIM parts.  So it seems you might just be paying for features.  

Here's a link to a post I made about them....

https://forums.gunsandammo.com/discussion/42994/springfield-1911s

Wambli Ska

Between quality stamping, MIM and CNC anything outside of drop-in will be a thing of the past in just about all currently manufactured guns.  It’s pretty much already the case with Glock, H&K, pretty much about all ARs, every Kimber I’ve handled lately, and just about every modern synthetic stocked hunting rifle out there.  Price/value differentials are becoming tenuous at best.

Don't really know what this will do to longevity, desirability and collect ability.  I don’t really foresee my great grandkids ever looking over Great grandpa’s Glock with longing admiration and lust.  But it sure makes for a lot of good options in purely functional guns for the consumer.

In the meantime my budget for new manufacture guns has gone to $000.  I have all the working hammers I need.

Diver43

Wambli Ska said:

Between quality stamping, MIM and CNC anything outside of drop-in will be a thing of the past in just about all currently manufactured guns.  It’s pretty much already the case with Glock, H&K, pretty much about all ARs, every Kimber I’ve handled lately, and just about every modern synthetic stocked hunting rifle out there.  Price/value differentials are becoming tenuous at best.

Don't really know what this will do to longevity, desirability and collect ability.  I don’t really foresee my great grandkids ever looking over Great grandpa’s Glock with longing admiration and lust.  But it sure makes for a lot of good options in purely functional guns for the consumer.

In the meantime my budget for new manufacture guns has gone to $000.  I have all the working hammers I need.

Now Wambli, you know we do not use that four letter word here.
You should have said that there are currently no off the shelf guns you desire

Wambli Ska

Diver43 said:

Now Wambli, you know we do not use that four letter word here.You should have said that there are currently no off the shelf guns you desire  

Damn!  Major faux pas, please forgive me.  

Yes, since I got every new Glock I wanted, there are no other new manufacture guns I desire… 😁

Linefinder

I don't care about the gun itself. As a machinist, though, I will say this. 6061 aluminum machines like bubble gum. It pushes, wanders erratically, and it's okay if your tolerances are those usually held by Chinese beach sandal manufacturers. Mic 6 is a much more consistent aluminum material.

304 Stainless is much the same. Gummy, gooey, and,,,well....I've refused to work with it upon occasion. 303 is a little cheaper, and machines very well. 410 and 420 are the gold standards for machinability, though. I get to work with that a lot.

Mike

ETA: 416 Stainless also sux for machining. Numbers make a difference. LOL!

breamfisher

Not surprised about the stainless. I used to dive. A LOT. And I worked at a dive shop. Dive tools/knives came in 3 common stainless alloys: 304, 420, and 440.
304 was what we sold to folks who took minimal to no care of their gear. It dulled quickly. Tended to bend. If a knife or tool had an impact piece, it was usually 304.
420 held a better edge, could take a bit of abuse before deforming, but needed rinsing and care.
440 was much easier to sharpen, a little more brittle, and needed the most care. Some folks would even smear silicone grease on them to keep them from rusting. 

Linefinder

breamfisher said:

Not surprised about the stainless. I used to dive. A LOT. And I worked at a dive shop. Dive tools/knives came in 3 common stainless alloys: 304, 420, and 440.
304 was what we sold to folks who took minimal to no care of their gear. It dulled quickly. Tended to bend. If a knife or tool had an impact piece, it was usually 304.
420 held a better edge, could take a bit of abuse before deforming, but needed rinsing and care.
440 was much easier to sharpen, a little more brittle, and needed the most care. Some folks would even smear silicone grease on them to keep them from rusting. 

Probably outside the sphere of the actual topic, but here goes.....

Most endmills nowadays are made of 1 of 2 materials. Carbide or High Speed Steel. Carbide starts life as a powder, and is extremely tough. But, since at its smallest granular structure, it can only be sharpened to "so sharp". High Speed Steel (HSS hereafter), like a quality knife blade, can be sharpened as sharp as your capabilities allow.

Carbide works best on steel. It's tough, but it's duller edge doesn't commit immediate suicide upon contacting steel. HSS, OTOH, dies pretty quick once you try to take a productive cut on steel. HSS works best on aluminum and plastic.

Aluminum tends to gall up on your cutter. Your brand new .500" cutter is suddenly either cutting .504" or leaving a finish that looks like serrations. 6061 Aluminum is notorious for this. A better grade of aluminum is a good idea.

It's not that the finished product of 6061 will break upon use. It's simply that it likely wasn't right to begin with.

Mike

JasonMPD

shotgunshooter3 said:

JasonMPD said:

Using aesthetics to compensate for sub-par manufacturing...Strike Industries much?  The most legitimate rifle sold under the SA brand name is the new VHS-2 ("Hellion") imported from Croatia.  It's an actually military trials rifle that came in 2nd to the H&K 416 during the French mil rifle trials several years ago.  Allegedly SA is importing it in the original mil configuration, sans full auto.  It's the only non-hobby-grade rifle they sell (I didn't forget the M1a, either...).

This is, unfortunately, the way Springfield seems to have gone, especially with their rifles (except maybe the elusive M1A Super Match?). Similar vein for a lot of their handguns. Fortunately they still produce the TRP in various dressings, and the ubiquitous SA Professional.

I'm reaching the point where most new guns don't do much for me that my current collection won't do. Any purchases I'm eying now are just upgrades from what I already have. Money better spent in ammo, game tags, match entry fees, etc most likely. 

I shouldn't have dismissed the TRP out of hand.  I lust for one, actually.  Since Kimber went down the crapper, the TRP is the last stop before you have to get into custom-ish and custom guns for triple the price, or more.  If I went single stack 45 ACP again in the working stiff price range, it would be a TRP.

shotgunshooter3

JasonMPD said:

shotgunshooter3 said:

JasonMPD said:

Using aesthetics to compensate for sub-par manufacturing...Strike Industries much?  The most legitimate rifle sold under the SA brand name is the new VHS-2 ("Hellion") imported from Croatia.  It's an actually military trials rifle that came in 2nd to the H&K 416 during the French mil rifle trials several years ago.  Allegedly SA is importing it in the original mil configuration, sans full auto.  It's the only non-hobby-grade rifle they sell (I didn't forget the M1a, either...).

This is, unfortunately, the way Springfield seems to have gone, especially with their rifles (except maybe the elusive M1A Super Match?). Similar vein for a lot of their handguns. Fortunately they still produce the TRP in various dressings, and the ubiquitous SA Professional.

I'm reaching the point where most new guns don't do much for me that my current collection won't do. Any purchases I'm eying now are just upgrades from what I already have. Money better spent in ammo, game tags, match entry fees, etc most likely. 

I shouldn't have dismissed the TRP out of hand.  I lust for one, actually.  Since Kimber went down the crapper, the TRP is the last stop before you have to get into custom-ish and custom guns for triple the price, or more.  If I went single stack 45 ACP again in the working stiff price range, it would be a TRP.

I'll take your word on it, as I haven't looked in a long time. I'm actually not sure what vintage my TRP is, but I know it's an older one.

Slight derail, but have you given much attention to the Dan Wesson line? They seem to be a great intersection of cost and quality.