Home Main Category Hunting

Hunting capabilities in terms of distance may be getting further-Snake Alert :-)

Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior MemberPosts: 7,425 Senior Member
Berger has some new bullets coming out.
"Hybrid bullets optimized for hunting are under development.
Calibers would include .270, 7mm (.284), and .308. Specific bullet designs in development are a 7mm, 195gr EOL Hybrid Hunting, and a .270 Cal, 170gr EOL Hybrid Hunting."
For the correct twist barrels these should bring some Awesome BC's.
I am personally excited about the 195 grainer.
In my old 7mm Dakota XP I would get just over 2700 fps with a 200 grain Wildcat bullet.
I am excited!!!
Ernie

"The Un-Tactical"
«1

Replies

  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,387 Senior Member
    Ernie, if they can build a 7mm bullet that will work in the correct twist of 195-200 grains, why do they hold the .270 back at only 170? I mean holy cow, like .007 of an inch is going to end the world? They could at least make one with 180 grain or so, unless this 195 grain is centered for a 7 mag rather than a 7mm-08, 7mm Mauser or .280 Remington. But even if that's the case, there's still the .270 Weatherby that a heavier bullet would work well in. What is the stigma that keeps bullet makers from exploiingt such a popular cartridge???
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,425 Senior Member
    Now there ya go complaining again...:silly:
    A 170 grain Hybrid, made for hunting big game, High BC, that is not a drama queen in terms of distance from the lands.
    Are you sure you haven't been talking to Eric or Brian:whip2:
    One of these days you need to yield to the fact that bullet makers and competitors do not have the love affair that you you do for the .277 bore (or the .257 for that matter) in terms of distance shooting.
    I think I would be jumping for joy right now if I liked the .277 bore and wanted to shoot distance:cool2:
    snake284 wrote: »
    Ernie, if they can build a 7mm bullet that will work in the correct twist of 195-200 grains, why do they hold the .270 back at only 170? I mean holy cow, like .007 of an inch is going to end the world? They could at least make one with 180 grain or so, unless this 195 grain is centered for a 7 mag rather than a 7mm-08, ymm Mauser or .280 Remington. But even if that's the case, there's still the .270 Weatherby that a heavier bullet would work well in. What is the stigma that keeps bullet makers from exploit such a popular cartridge???
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    A man has got to dream. MLK's was quite a bit more inspiring, but it is a dream none the less.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,425 Senior Member
    It makes a dream even more of a reality.
    With the 170 Hybrid, it will make the 277 quite competitive (not talking 1k bench or F-Class).
    I expect it to hold its own and or better most 06 rounds.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,425 Senior Member
    I think so! Maybe your yotes are a whole lot bigger than what we have here:yikes:
    BPsniper wrote: »
    Will it actually make the .270 effective for game a little bigger than coyotes? :-)
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • Six-GunSix-Gun Senior Member Posts: 8,120 Senior Member
    BPsniper wrote: »
    Will it actually make the .270 effective for game a little bigger than coyotes? :-)

    Rumor is that coyotes prefer actually prefer a secant ogive on the .277 to pick their teeth with after they notice the bullet on the ground after impact. :tooth:
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,425 Senior Member
    You guys are terrible:jester:
    Six-Gun wrote: »
    Rumor is that coyotes prefer actually prefer a secant ogive on the .277 to pick their teeth with after they notice the bullet on the ground after impact. :tooth:
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,425 Senior Member
    I have a 9T McGowen blank already-Curious to know the recommended twist rate will be for those 195's???????
    My ole 1-7 Twist was more than was needed for the 200 grain Wildcat (rebated boat-tail/Ultra low-drag). If a 9 works with the 195 it would be so cool!!!
    If not, I will order an 8 or 8.5. I need to talk to Eric or Bryan in the near future. Maybe this is why I have been holding off on another 7 Dak for awhile.
    Can you tell this bullet has me excited?:love:
    BPsniper wrote: »
    Ok, in all seriousness, all those bullets sound pretty cool. Makes me want a 7mm Mag or something with a bigger case. But alas, no need. Still cool, though.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • Six-GunSix-Gun Senior Member Posts: 8,120 Senior Member
    Just havin' fun, just havin' fun. Snake knows that I come in peace.

    My formal question to this subject/bullet is one of penetration. I know several of you guys have successfully taken critters with the Bergers, but I have also read of some folks (even on here) who have seen some ugly blow-ups with the "hunting" bullet. I guess the question here is two-fold: 1) are the previously named "hunting" bullets that Berger offers simply re-branded match bullets of the exact same construction? I ask because that was one angry - albeit unfounded outside of an intenet forum I am wholly unfamiliar with - accustation that I read related to their hunting offering. 2) Do you know if anything in this design is noteable beefed up beyond the previous Berger hunting design?
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,425 Senior Member
    Has come to this? We actually have to be serious?:jester:

    I hope I get all the facts straight.
    Berger's original VLD's were never touted by Berger to be hunting bullets and never even dreamed they would be.
    But, guys started using them and found them to be great killers.
    Sometimes you get exits with them and other times you don't-Depends on a variety of things MV, animal, bones, etc... They will penetrate deep enough to get into the vitals and then they come apart with the the animal dropping on the spot or close to it. Even if they don't exit, they cause such a destruction to the vitals, that a exit would is not required.
    People continued to use them, and with anything new, controversy lights up.
    John Barsness did a lot of testing, on a variety of big game using the Berger bullets and came away very impressed and ended up writing an article about it.
    After the article or maybe before I believe he used them on African game as well-not a 100% sure there.
    http://www.bergerbullets.com/Information/Barsness%20Article.pdf

    Back to Berger. Berger began to have troubles with bullet blow-up problems in some matches (usually a lot of shooting with higher MV's).
    Berger went back to work and came out with a heavier jacket for match shooting, and somewhere around that time they began packaging the original thinner jacketed VLD's (The type John wrote about) bullets in the orange boxes for hunting.
    It designated which was which, and by this time they were being accepted more and more for hunting.
    Hope that makes a little sense.
    No bullet is perfect or will always do the same thing every time, at all speeds and distances, with the exception maybe of a solid.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • shootershooter Senior Member Posts: 1,186 Senior Member
    Ernie,
    The pictured rifle is my Remington Sendero SF-II in 7 Rem Mag. It has a twist rate of 1 in 9 1/4". It shoots 168 gr. Sierras and 162 gr. Hornady A-max's very well. In fact, this was the first rifle I used at Pella, Ia. for 1000 yd. B.R. matches before switching to 6.5x284's.

    What do you think is the heaviest of these new Berger offerings that my twist rate could reliably stabilize. I have never hunted with this rifle but would like to take it out west next fall.

    IMG_1274adj.jpg

    IMG_1280adj.jpg
    There's no such thing as having too much ammo, unless you're on fire or trying to swim!
  • Six-GunSix-Gun Senior Member Posts: 8,120 Senior Member
    Has come to this? We actually have to be serious?:jester:

    I hope I get all the facts straight.
    Berger's original VLD's were never touted by Berger to be hunting bullets and never even dreamed they would be.
    But, guys started using them and found them to be great killers.
    Sometimes you get exits with them and other times you don't-Depends on a variety of things MV, animal, bones, etc... They will penetrate deep enough to get into the vitals and then they come apart with the the animal dropping on the spot or close to it. Even if they don't exit, they cause such a destruction to the vitals, that a exit would is not required.
    People continued to use them, and with anything new, controversy lights up.
    John Barsness did a lot of testing, on a variety of big game using the Berger bullets and came away very impressed and ended up writing an article about it.
    After the article or maybe before I believe he used them on African game as well-not a 100% sure there.
    http://www.bergerbullets.com/Information/Barsness%20Article.pdf

    Back to Berger. Berger began to have troubles with bullet blow-up problems in some matches (usually a lot of shooting with higher MV's).
    Berger went back to work and came out with a heavier jacket for match shooting, and somewhere around that time they began packaging the original thinner jacketed VLD's (The type John wrote about) bullets in the orange boxes for hunting.
    It designated which was which, and by this time they were being accepted more and more for hunting.
    Hope that makes a little sense.
    No bullet is perfect or will always do the same thing every time, at all speeds and distances, with the exception maybe of a solid.

    Great explanation, Ernie. That clears up a lot of what I've been wondering for a while.
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,387 Senior Member
    Six-Gun wrote: »
    Just havin' fun, just havin' fun. Snake knows that I come in peace.

    My formal question to this subject/bullet is one of penetration. I know several of you guys have successfully taken critters with the Bergers, but I have also read of some folks (even on here) who have seen some ugly blow-ups with the "hunting" bullet. I guess the question here is two-fold: 1) are the previously named "hunting" bullets that Berger offers simply re-branded match bullets of the exact same construction? I ask because that was one angry - albeit unfounded outside of an intenet forum I am wholly unfamiliar with - accustation that I read related to their hunting offering. 2) Do you know if anything in this design is noteable beefed up beyond the previous Berger hunting design?


    Yes Six, I know you are one of the really good guys here. Now as for you Ernie??? God I hit a nerve! Now if I'm the fanatic here, why do some always erupt when i bring a .270 up. At this point I'm not trying to convert you to a .270 fan. I am just asking what I believe to be reasonable questions. Heck if they only made 150 grrain bullets in 7mm I would ask the same question. I like em all. But you'd think it's Kryptonite and you all are superman or something. I was asking a serious question Ernie. And I will say somebody besides myself has this same love affair with the .270 Win. Here's the deal Ern, I own one. It means a lot to me because I killed my first deer with it, I have killed more than 40 deer with it, it is reasonably accurate, and it does its job without fail usually. All of them fail occasionally and this one's record is better than most. It's easy to reload for, and it's a great handling rifle. It has never jammed on me or caused me to miss a shot. Those I missed I put the blame on myself 100%. With a resume like this why wouldn't I be defensive of it?

    Now back to the original question; Ernie, why would the bullet makers limit such a cartridge when it's only .007 of an inch smaller than say a .280? Why don't they make it in heavier bullets like they do for the 7mm or for that matter the 6.5s? I mean it's between the two. Why not make it more versatile and sell more products. I will concede that most .270 shooters are not gun fanatics and probaby use one because Grandpa used to read Jack O'Connor. That's a no brainer and everyone should know that. I do. But it still has a following of experienced shooters too. Why not open up new avenues for it and make it even more versatile. I realize and agree with you that a 170 is a big improvement, but why stop there when I'm more than sure it will work in the 180 grain department.

    Edited to Add: And as for shooting ultra long range, I could care less. If it will kill within 400 yards I'm happy. But I would like to see a more versatile choice of bullets. Then it wouldn't be near as subject to being slandered so bad.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,425 Senior Member
    Thanks CPJ!
    Almost any 06 capacity cartridge (6mm-06, 25-06, 6.5-06, 270, 280, 30-06, 338-06, etc...) with a rifle that has 1MOA accuracy will easily kill deer at 400 yards-What is the big deal?
    This is nothing new.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,387 Senior Member
    cpj, I appreciate this comment. I really do from you. And I totally agree. But I would still like to have a better choice of bullets. I guess you're telling me that there's not enough of us wanting to see heavier bullets, and I agree. I know you kid me. I have known that for sometime. So don't take me too seriously when i have a come back. Seriously and I mean this, me and the .270 have a going thing with some of you. I do it in fun with you as most people. But this one time I was serious. I felt it was a good question. And like I said, I could give less a .... well you know, about target shooting with it. I want to elk hunt with it or moose hunt or any of the things I'm not afraid to try with my .280. Some may ask why then since I'm not a long range target shooter do I have both. I just love rifles and I want one in every cartridge. And I'm working on it. Yes I have a lot of sentiment in the .270 but you can see why reading my above post. We go back 45 years. If you keep that .7-08 that long you will have this kind of love for it. And you may already. I think the 7-08 and the 7mm Mauser are absolute dolls. I will have either one of them or both before I'm finished. But none can take the place of my .270 just because I've had it for 45 years and it has never really let me down. Nuff said.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,387 Senior Member
    But what if I want to take it elk hunting or Carribou or moose hunting? That's not a big deal but it's a thought.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,425 Senior Member
    Moose-Use a AB, partition or other wise similar bullet.
    Caribou are easy to kill.
    If I can drop elk with a 7-08 using NBT's beyond a 1/4 mile, you can kill a moose with your 270 just fine.
    snake284 wrote: »
    But what if I want to take it elk hunting or Carribou or moose hunting? That's not a big deal but it's a thought.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,387 Senior Member
    No argument here. No way I would propose a .223 for anything bigger than whitetail deer and then only with good bullets and enough shooting expertise for proper shot placement. But some already use a .270 Win. for larger critters. But even I think it could be under kill with the bullets that are presently offered. Anyway, Ernie is right that the 170 grain is a big improvement. I guess I want my cake and eat it too.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,425 Senior Member
    Are you going or planning to go moose hunting?
    If not, no worries, your 270 is very capable of anything you will hunt.
    snake284 wrote: »
    But what if I want to take it elk hunting or Carribou or moose hunting? That's not a big deal but it's a thought.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,387 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    5cdde-missingthepoint.jpg

    So what else is new?
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,387 Senior Member
    Are you going or planning to go moose hunting?
    If not, no worries, your 270 is very capable of anything you will hunt.

    Maybe some day. And if I do, I wouldn't make the .270 my primary rifle, but would love to take it for my back up. Everytime somebody brings up a 150 grain bullet for such things someone here will say it's not enough you need 170 or 180. Seeing that I'm under experienced at Elk and Moose hunting I can't really argue against what they say. So I just cave in to them and look for something heavier.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,425 Senior Member
    Agreed. I have seen bulls soak up rounds from big boy cartridges and keep rolling.
    Shot placement and a bullet that will perform within the velocity range you are shooting.
    We have killed 3 bulls and 5 cows with 140 grain bullets.
    Well, one was a 150 grain. Add another cow to the list that guy wounded with a 338WM using partitions
    A good 150 grain placed right will kill an elk everytime.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,425 Senior Member
    First nice rig!
    Second, the 168 Berger is a great choice, and I am about as sure as I can that it will stabilize it just fine, in fact the 180 VLD should work good as well.
    For a combo of speed, drift and drop I think I would lean toward the 168.
    Berger's have a recommended 1800 fps minimum impact velocity, so I would rather keep the speed up a little if I can if I am thinking about distance.
    Once that bullet penetrates I want it to become a wrecking crew internally.
    What was your MV with the Smackie?
    Do you like using a joystick rest?
    shooter wrote: »
    Ernie,
    The pictured rifle is my Remington Sendero SF-II in 7 Rem Mag. It has a twist rate of 1 in 9 1/4". It shoots 168 gr. Sierras and 162 gr. Hornady A-max's very well. In fact, this was the first rifle I used at Pella, Ia. for 1000 yd. B.R. matches before switching to 6.5x284's.

    What do you think is the heaviest of these new Berger offerings that my twist rate could reliably stabilize. I have never hunted with this rifle but would like to take it out west next fall.

    IMG_1274adj.jpg

    IMG_1280adj.jpg
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,127 Senior Member
    To answer the question of why they really haven't ever used the .270 as a match cartridge:

    The 7mm has been a military round in some form for quite some time. Back in the day, they already had a bunch of relatively high BC long skinny bullets made for war that worked better than the average hunting bullet for punching holes in targets at long distance. All this was established around the world even before the .270 came out in America as a hunting round. Because the .270 was designed to be a hunting round, they made hunting bullets for it-- not match bullets. The guys in the long range target games used military bullets because they were available and worked better than hunting bullets. Only in the last few decades have special match grade bullets been available to shooters. Since 7mm has been used for years and years in match rifles, it was a no brainer for the match bullet manufacturers to make bullets in 7mm. Since there were no .270 match shooters, it would have been stupid to make bullets for guns that didn't exist, so they didn't make them... And since they didn't make them, and there was little to gain or lose by switching from a 7mm to a .270 bullet, the match shooters never demanded them either.

    In other words, the military history of 7mm bullets and the evolution of match bullets ensured that it would eclipse .270 bullets as match bullets.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • shootershooter Senior Member Posts: 1,186 Senior Member
    First nice rig!
    Second, the 168 Berger is a great choice, and I am about as sure as I can that it will stabilize it just fine, in fact the 180 VLD should work good as well.
    For a combo of speed, drift and drop I think I would lean toward the 168.
    Berger's have a recommended 1800 fps minimum impact velocity, so I would rather keep the speed up a little if I can if I am thinking about distance.
    Once that bullet penetrates I want it to become a wrecking crew internally.
    What was your MV with the Smackie?
    Do you like using a joystick rest?

    Thanks, it was my first 1000 yd.setup. I know you've been to Pella (read one of your articles) and we had to zero ourselves on clay pigeons. I couldn't recover from recoil fast enough to spot my hits on the dirt bank, so had to ask the guy next to me to help get a zero during the sighter period. Thank goodness he was friendly enough to help. After that first match, I had a Vais muzzle brake installed and it made all the difference in the world. I could see 8 or 9 out of 10 shots hit the dirt bank and zero myself during the 6 minute sighter period. A humorous side note.. When I got home from my first match and told my buddy that we had to zero ourselves at 1000 yds. by shooting clay pigeons, he gave me a weird look and asked. Come on Joe, if you shoot clay pigeons at 1000 yards, how far do you have to lead them???? His gene pool does not have a deep end.

    The 168 SMK's were going about 2925 fps and my load for the 162 A-max's were approx. 2950 fps out of my 26" barrel.

    The joystick rest is something I got after my first F-class match a few years ago. My regular front rest did not work too well from prone on the grass and a fellow competitor had one of these Caldwell "Fire Contol" rests just for shooting from off the ground prone. He let me use his and I wound up buying one. If I'm shooting from the bench, I'd much prefer one of my other front rests, but if I ever go prairie dogging again, this is coming with me.
    There's no such thing as having too much ammo, unless you're on fire or trying to swim!
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,425 Senior Member
    If you ever make it up this way, I will let you use a different class of joystick rest-It will truly spoil you.
    And yes, it is awesome when doggin:win:
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • shootershooter Senior Member Posts: 1,186 Senior Member
    If you ever make it up this way, I will let you use a different class of joystick rest-It will truly spoil you.
    And yes, it is awesome when doggin:win:

    Well, the last two years we got antelope permits for area 29 and stayed in Douglas. We hunted an area just east of Bill, Wy., population ?? There's not much there. Thunder basin national grasslands was to the east of us.
    There's no such thing as having too much ammo, unless you're on fire or trying to swim!
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,387 Senior Member
    BPsniper wrote: »
    I shot a cow elk 3 times in the lungs with a .270 Winchester and 150gr Power Points. She just stood there for what seemed a minute or so before falling over. She didn't seem impressed. I know I wasn't. On the flip side, the biggest bull I've ever seen was taken with one shot from a .243 to the neck at 30 yards or so. Go figure. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. But you still have to figure bullet and cartridge in there to some degree.

    I shot a spike 3 times in the lungs with my .280 Remington and watched it trot away. I was using 150 grain Nosler BTs. It eventually made it to the fence and jumped it, ran off and no doubt died. We looked for it but only found a place it bedded down briefly that was full of blood. I no doubt got up too quick and scared it and when I got close, it jumped the fence and ran off and died. It can happen with any cartridge or rifle. Then again, I have made a couple of pretty sloppy shots with my 6mm Remington that put the deer down grave yard dead on the spot. Do I believe the 6mm is a more formidable cartridge than a .270 or .280? Heck no, because I have had the opposite happen with my .6mm too. I've had what I thought surely to be dead deer run away scott free. Pooh happens. It doesn't have to make sense everytime, that's just hunting.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,425 Senior Member
    If you did get up to Gillette, give me a holler.
    shooter wrote: »
    Well, the last two years we got antelope permits for area 29 and stayed in Douglas. We hunted an area just east of Bill, Wy., population ?? There's not much there. Thunder basin national grasslands was to the east of us.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
Sign In or Register to comment.
Magazine Cover

GET THE MAGAZINE Subscribe & Save

Temporary Price Reduction

SUBSCRIBE NOW

Give a Gift   |   Subscriber Services

PREVIEW THIS MONTH'S ISSUE

GET THE NEWSLETTER Join the List and Never Miss a Thing.

Get the top Guns & Ammo stories delivered right to your inbox every week.

Advertisement