smallest available pistol for civilian EDC that's still effective

borisbadenoff

I didn't see a thread on this subject newer than years old, so here's a new one.

My first carry pistol was a Glock 23, bought in 1992 when I didn't trust the performance of the 9mm ammunition available at the time.  I parted with it years ago after I moved to a stricter state, but recently I decided to obtain my carry permit and after it came through I bought a G27 Gen5 to replace my long-lost but well-loved G23.  But after trying a few holsters, I find the G27 (and I would expect, any double-stack Glock) to be just too damn thick for EDC.  So it has become my primary home defense firearm.

Having heard about recent advances in 9mm performance as a defensive round, I took another look at the caliber and decided it would work for me, so my next purchase was a Sig P365, since it seems to be the hottest model of the new "double-stack micro 9" category of carry pistols.  It's very well made, shoots beautifully, and holds up to 10+1 rounds of +P ammo.  This is my new benchmark.

Adequate imho.  But still bigger than I'd like to carry every day, since as we all know for civilian EDC you might carry your pistol every day of your life and never once actually need to use it in a defensive situation (I certainly hope that's the case).  But if I do ever need it to protect my life, obviously I want a firearm that will reliably go bang with a reasonable chance of hitting my target.  But I have no intention of lugging around a hand cannon unless there's no reasonable alternative.

So my goal is to obtain the absolutely smallest pistol I can reasonably find that will satisfy the need.  I don't want to start a caliber war but I'm reluctant to look at 380acp or smaller "mouse" guns because I'm not sure I'd want to trust my life to that caliber (much less anything smaller).  So that leaves 9mm or 40s&w, and I've been seeking the smallest possible gun in one of those calibers that will be reliable and reasonably accurate. 

My next acquisition in pursuit of this goal was a Diamondback DB9 Gen4, which is still new and I will be heading to the range tomorrow to see how well it stacks up against my Sig.  If it does the job it will become my new EDC.  I'm not worried that it only holds 6+1, since I think that most deadly encounters in civilian life are likely to end after one or two shots at the most (again that is the hope, but I think a reasonable presumption too).

But even if I switch to the DB9, I'm not married to it if I can find something even smaller that's just as good, or the same size but better.  I've been reading about Kahr Arms and am very interested in their PM9 and PM40, both of which are smaller than my benchmark P365 and get generally good reviews. 

I'd like to hear any opinions about any of the guns I've mentioned in this thread or any others that you think might be worth considering as an alternative (again, no bigger than the P365).  I lean toward DAO or Glock-style striker-fired for EDC, as I'm not a fan of 1911-style SA for EDC (even though I also own a Sig P938 and I think it's an awesome gun, just not for EDC).  DA/SA could work well, but I've never heard of one small enough for my purpose.  Your turn.

RugerFan

I have a DB9 and it is probably the most uncomfortable pistol I’ve ever shot. And I’ve owned a SBH and SRH in 480. 

My Ruger LC9 feels better. Particularly since I put a Pachmeyer(?) “grip sleeve” on it. I don’t know what the actual name of it is. It just slips on over the pistol grip. It adds width the grip of the LC9.

Wambli Ska

At some point I'll be picking up a Kahr PM9 just because it's TINY, and because of the popularity of the small Glock offerings (42 and 43) Kahr has fallen out of favor. They are now easily found for bargain prices.  I've seen a few PM9s sell in the mid to high $200s and that is a BARGAIN for a very high quality gun.

Zee

Wambli Ska said:

At some point I'll be picking up a Kahr PM9 just because it's TINY, and because of the popularity of the small Glock offerings (42 and 43) Kahr has fallen out of favor. They are now easily found for bargain prices.  I've seen a few PM9s sell in the mid to high $200s and that is a BARGAIN for a very high quality gun.

I’ve tried a few Kahr pistols. They are painful for me to shoot. 

That slide release chews up my shooting hand thumb because of its sharp, squared edges and my thumb placement. Not willing to change my grip for one gun. 

Elk creek

I like my Glock 42…..

Gila

S&W .357mag Airlite...

zorba

Ruger LC9s here.

Jayhawker

Ruger LCR .357

Jeeper44mag

Ruger LC9S Pro, or S&W Shield.  Both in 9mm, both excellent little pistols.  Ruger LCR if you prefer a wheel gun.

Luis

Wambli Ska

Zee said:

Wambli Ska said:

At some point I'll be picking up a Kahr PM9 just because it's TINY, and because of the popularity of the small Glock offerings (42 and 43) Kahr has fallen out of favor. They are now easily found for bargain prices.  I've seen a few PM9s sell in the mid to high $200s and that is a BARGAIN for a very high quality gun.

I’ve tried a few Kahr pistols. They are painful for me to shoot. 

That slide release chews up my shooting hand thumb because of its sharp, squared edges and my thumb placement. Not willing to change my grip for one gun. 

I remember you mentioning it.  I’ve never had a problem with it.  Then again there’s always a Dremel 😁

Diver43

Wambli Ska said:

Zee said:

Wambli Ska said:

At some point I'll be picking up a Kahr PM9 just because it's TINY, and because of the popularity of the small Glock offerings (42 and 43) Kahr has fallen out of favor. They are now easily found for bargain prices.  I've seen a few PM9s sell in the mid to high $200s and that is a BARGAIN for a very high quality gun.

I’ve tried a few Kahr pistols. They are painful for me to shoot. 

That slide release chews up my shooting hand thumb because of its sharp, squared edges and my thumb placement. Not willing to change my grip for one gun. 

I remember you mentioning it.  I’ve never had a problem with it.  Then again there’s always a Dremel 😁

What was the pocket rocket that knitepoet carried?

Linefinder

Tally another vote for the Kahr PM9. I've carried it for years. It's small, and accurate way beyond its bbl length. It's not a double stack, but my plan of action is not to get into a protracted gunfight.

Diver, I think KP had a PM45. That would be a handful for sure. He didn't like it and I know I wouldn't.

Mike

Wambli Ska

Diver43 said:

Wambli Ska said:

Zee said:

Wambli Ska said:

At some point I'll be picking up a Kahr PM9 just because it's TINY, and because of the popularity of the small Glock offerings (42 and 43) Kahr has fallen out of favor. They are now easily found for bargain prices.  I've seen a few PM9s sell in the mid to high $200s and that is a BARGAIN for a very high quality gun.

I’ve tried a few Kahr pistols. They are painful for me to shoot. 

That slide release chews up my shooting hand thumb because of its sharp, squared edges and my thumb placement. Not willing to change my grip for one gun. 

I remember you mentioning it.  I’ve never had a problem with it.  Then again there’s always a Dremel 😁

What was the pocket rocket that knitepoet carried?

Linefinder said:

Tally another vote for the Kahr PM9. I've carried it for years. It's small, and accurate way beyond its bbl length. It's not a double stack, but my plan of action is not to get into a protracted gunfight.

Diver, I think KP had a PM45. That would be a handful for sure. He didn't like it and I know I wouldn't.

Mike

I think it’s a PM40.  A little mini cannon 😱

Linefinder

Wambli Ska said:

Diver43 said:

Wambli Ska said:

Zee said:

Wambli Ska said:

At some point I'll be picking up a Kahr PM9 just because it's TINY, and because of the popularity of the small Glock offerings (42 and 43) Kahr has fallen out of favor. They are now easily found for bargain prices.  I've seen a few PM9s sell in the mid to high $200s and that is a BARGAIN for a very high quality gun.

I’ve tried a few Kahr pistols. They are painful for me to shoot. 

That slide release chews up my shooting hand thumb because of its sharp, squared edges and my thumb placement. Not willing to change my grip for one gun. 

I remember you mentioning it.  I’ve never had a problem with it.  Then again there’s always a Dremel 😁

What was the pocket rocket that knitepoet carried?

Linefinder said:

Tally another vote for the Kahr PM9. I've carried it for years. It's small, and accurate way beyond its bbl length. It's not a double stack, but my plan of action is not to get into a protracted gunfight.

Diver, I think KP had a PM45. That would be a handful for sure. He didn't like it and I know I wouldn't.

Mike

I think it’s a PM40.  A little mini cannon 😱

Wambli, you are right. It was a PM40.....a hand cannon for sure in such a small platform.  More than I'd want. I really think 9mm was what this rig was designed for. It works in that chambering very well.

Mike

borisbadenoff

The PM9 and PM40 both look so sweet I can't decide. I'll just have to buy one of each.

jbp-ohio

The .380acp may be marginal, but you will completely forget you are carrying a P380...

borisbadenoff

I finally hit the range today with several new toys, including my new DB9 Gen4. It works, I can hit what I aim at, and despite its reputation it ate everything I fed it without fail (I didn't try any +P). Fun to shoot? Not!  But at half the price of a typical Sig or Glock, 16oz fully loaded, and 9/10 of an inch thick, it's a great BUG or occasional EDC.

Gila

borisbadenoff said:

I finally hit the range today with several new toys, including my new DB9 Gen4. It works, I can hit what I aim at, and despite its reputation it ate everything I fed it without fail (I didn't try any +P). Fun to shoot? Not!  But at half the price of a typical Sig or Glock, 16oz fully loaded, and 9/10 of an inch thick, it's a great BUG or occasional EDC.

Photos please...

Diver43

Wambli Ska said:

Diver43 said:

Wambli Ska said:

Zee said:

Wambli Ska said:

At some point I'll be picking up a Kahr PM9 just because it's TINY, and because of the popularity of the small Glock offerings (42 and 43) Kahr has fallen out of favor. They are now easily found for bargain prices.  I've seen a few PM9s sell in the mid to high $200s and that is a BARGAIN for a very high quality gun.

I’ve tried a few Kahr pistols. They are painful for me to shoot. 

That slide release chews up my shooting hand thumb because of its sharp, squared edges and my thumb placement. Not willing to change my grip for one gun. 

I remember you mentioning it.  I’ve never had a problem with it.  Then again there’s always a Dremel 😁

What was the pocket rocket that knitepoet carried?

Linefinder said:

Tally another vote for the Kahr PM9. I've carried it for years. It's small, and accurate way beyond its bbl length. It's not a double stack, but my plan of action is not to get into a protracted gunfight.

Diver, I think KP had a PM45. That would be a handful for sure. He didn't like it and I know I wouldn't.

Mike

I think it’s a PM40.  A little mini cannon 😱

I think your right.  It for sure was a .40
Being a big guy it disappeared in his pocket

borisbadenoff

Gila said:

borisbadenoff said:

I finally hit the range today with several new toys, including my new DB9 Gen4. It works, I can hit what I aim at, and despite its reputation it ate everything I fed it without fail (I didn't try any +P). Fun to shoot? Not!  But at half the price of a typical Sig or Glock, 16oz fully loaded, and 9/10 of an inch thick, it's a great BUG or occasional EDC.

Photos please...

borisbadenoff

This is both sides of the Diamondback DB9. It's an unremarkable looking gun, but it shoots well enough. 

PFD

Don't know if they're made any more but I have an AMT Backup in .45 ACP.

It's all stainless so it's not light but it will fit in your pants pocket.

Mr. Jerry sent me instructions on how to modify a 1911 mag to stretch it from 5 rounds to 8. 😄

Shooting it is an exercise in pain management. 😜

Wambli Ska

Linefinder said:

Wambli Ska said:

Diver43 said:

Wambli Ska said:

Zee said:

Wambli Ska said:

At some point I'll be picking up a Kahr PM9 just because it's TINY, and because of the popularity of the small Glock offerings (42 and 43) Kahr has fallen out of favor. They are now easily found for bargain prices.  I've seen a few PM9s sell in the mid to high $200s and that is a BARGAIN for a very high quality gun.

I’ve tried a few Kahr pistols. They are painful for me to shoot. 

That slide release chews up my shooting hand thumb because of its sharp, squared edges and my thumb placement. Not willing to change my grip for one gun. 

I remember you mentioning it.  I’ve never had a problem with it.  Then again there’s always a Dremel 😁

What was the pocket rocket that knitepoet carried?

Linefinder said:

Tally another vote for the Kahr PM9. I've carried it for years. It's small, and accurate way beyond its bbl length. It's not a double stack, but my plan of action is not to get into a protracted gunfight.

Diver, I think KP had a PM45. That would be a handful for sure. He didn't like it and I know I wouldn't.

Mike

I think it’s a PM40.  A little mini cannon 😱

Wambli, you are right. It was a PM40.....a hand cannon for sure in such a small platform.  More than I'd want. I really think 9mm was what this rig was designed for. It works in that chambering very well.

Mike

I like the PM9 because of the +1 rounds over the PM40. But the 40 was surprisingly soft shooting considering what it is!

Gila

PFD said:

Don't know if they're made any more but I have an AMT Backup in .45 ACP.

It's all stainless so it's not light but it will fit in your pants pocket.

Mr. Jerry sent me instructions on how to modify a 1911 mag to stretch it from 5 rounds to 8. 😄

Shooting it is an exercise in pain management. 😜

Try shooting a .357 Airlite...

Bigslug

It's worth remembering that Gavrilo Princip successfully went two for two with .380 FMJ, and managed to kick off the First World War.

The problem with the smaller-than-9mm auto cartridges is that we've been inundated with the notion that the bullet MUST expand, and when those little bullets expand, they no longer penetrate enough.  Sooooooo. . . with that in mind, if running .380 or .32, my preferred option would be flat-pointed FMJ, that will leave a slightly more ragged and leaky wound track than the classic round nose, yet still dive deep enough to reach the Tootsie Roll center of the Tootsiepop.

I'm a big fan of the Glock 42.  It is not the smallest .380 out there, but it is the right size to work in pocket holsters, yet is just large enough to be decently controllable for accuracy.  Also, because it's a locked-breech gun, it manages to be lighter weight, yet hit you with less recoil than blowback .380's like the PPK.

JKP

I had a PM9 and CM40. Liked them for their size but not much else, especially when compared to the Sig P365. As others have noted the small Kahrs are just not comfortable to shoot well.

borisbadenoff

Bummer about your experience with the Kahr's.  I've been seriously considering a PM40 if I can find one.  Although I like the way my P365 Nitron shoots a lot, I lean toward 40 cal if all else is equal.  I also found my G27 Gen5 is softer shooting than the P365.  Is that just due to the difference in design between Sig and Glock, or does the difference in caliber have something to do with it?

I also ran some rounds through a Diamondback DB9 Gen4, my new BUG.  Really snappy recoil, not at all fun to shoot.  But when I took my time I consistently got 2" groups out of it.  If either of the Kahr's shoots as well as or better than the DB9, I think I'd be satisfied.

Wambli Ska

I’ve shot a lot of Kahrs including the P, PM and CM models in .40 and 9mm and I have not really found any of them specially harsh in the recoil department.  All of them have been above average in the accuracy dept though it is tough to hang on to the little ones when you press the accelerator down.

rberglof

I have the Kahr CW45 and I like it.

borisbadenoff

I'm saving up for a PM40. Anyone interested in a lightly used P938 Nitron? 

Wambli Ska

borisbadenoff said:

I'm saving up for a PM40. Anyone interested in a lightly used P938 Nitron? 

Actually I have a P938 Spartan and it’s a hell of a nice gun.  It basically disappears in my waist band.  I haven’t taken it out for a walk in a while.  Thanks for reminding me that it’s due to jump into rotation.