How many of you...

JayhawkerJayhawker ModeratorPosts: 15,212 Senior Member
....keep an attorney who is well versed in self defense law on retainer? For that matter, how many of you even KNOW of an attorney that is well versed in self defense law.

The reason I ask is in response to the often given advice following a self-defense shooting that we should "Say nothing to the police until you have contacted your attorney".....Sorry folks....if you're in my boat you are going to be stuck with a public defender (at least at the outset) who may, for all I know may be a card carrying, anti-gun member of the ACLU.

The Self-Defense laws in a large number of states are designed to protect the shooter from reckless prosecution and from subsequent civil suits, but still, who knows what you'll end up with if you're dealing with a public defender?...
Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"

Replies

  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,599 Senior Member
    There is a list on our state concealed forum. I don't have one on retainer

    Sent from my R800x using Tapatalk
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 8,750 Senior Member
    On retainer? NO, but I do know one that I could call if needed. If I can afford her fees to represent me, that I am not too sure of.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    There's a very experienced local lawyer named Philip Kline, a very active member on the local PA gun forum, who gave classes on gun laws that my wife and I both attended. We have his number on our phone, but don't have a retainer.

    As you know, unless you can prove that you're unable to hire a private attorney, you're not automatically assigned a public defender. More details on how you get assigned one for those who may be interested: http://criminal.lawyers.com/Criminal-Law-Basics/Public-Defenders.html

    I don't know if there's one correct way of what to say to the police. I know though the best and 100% correct way is not to talk to them at all until you speak to your attorney, private or assigned.You don't have to say "my lawyer", but "a lawyer" in whatever 1-sentence phrase you want to give to the police.

    Al
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    Now, here's a very interesting article on the unintended consequences of remaining completely silent. I think it's a good read so that you can make your own decision on what you need to say: http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/unintended-consequences-of-silence

    Al
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    ...and one from a 33-year experience officer on what to DO and what to say: http://www.hardtargetfirearms.com/company/tactical-a-safety-info/64-the-aftermath-of-a-self-defense-shooting

    Al
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,987 Senior Member
    Al:
    That last was a good article.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,212 Senior Member
    Great articles Al....Thanks.... I suggest that everyone read them....You get the gist of the thread....that simplistic one liner about not talking to the cops is double-edged sword...and one edge guarantees that you you WILL go to jail. If you called 911; you already "talked to the cops"...

    I know a couple of guys who have been involved in fatal self-defense shootings...both of them told the police what occurred and neither of them so much as saw the passenger compartment of a police car...much less went to jail. In one case, the intruder wasn't armed, but in the dark, the idiot pointed a cellphone at the shotgun armed home defender as if it were a pistol...a perfect example of how being stupid hurts...for a little bit anyway...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Great articles Al....Thanks.... I suggest that everyone read them....You get the gist of the thread....that simplistic one liner about not talking to the cops is double-edged sword...and one edge guarantees that you you WILL go to jail. If you called 911; you already "talked to the cops"...

    I know a couple of guys who have been involved in fatal self-defense shootings...both of them told the police what occurred and neither of them so much as saw the passenger compartment of a police car...much less went to jail. In one case, the intruder wasn't armed, but in the dark, the idiot pointed a cellphone at the shotgun armed home defender as if it were a pistol...

    Both articles complimented each other extremely well, backing each other up with practical and legal rationales. The articles have changed my mind quite a bit, within the last few hours, regarding how much one should talk the police after a justified self-defense shooting. Glad you find them useful too :thumb:

    A couple sections from the first article really stood out to me.

    One size does not fit all...
    "...because each self-defense incident will be unique, the question cannot be answered uniformly or with a one-liner. What you should do or say if you shoot a burglar in your home in self defense is likely different than what you should do or say if you shoot someone in the middle of a parking garage late at night during a robbery attempt. Why? Because the circumstances and events differ. Your decision to shoot comes in response to actions by the perpetrators, and events unfold differently during those dissimilar attacks. As you know, one size does not fit all, and neither does one uniform statement to the police–or no statement at all–work effectively in all cases..."

    After shooting...
    "...Wouldn’t it have been much better, to tell the police succinctly that you were attacked, that the man lying on the ground placed your life in danger, and you were forced to shoot to save your life? That the guys standing over there saw what happened? That after falling down, the assailant threw the knife in those bushes–as you point to the clump of bushes 30 feet away? Maybe, just maybe, the police will consider the idea that you were justified in shooting, and they will investigate and document all the pertinent facts surrounding the incident. Wouldn’t that be nice?

    What if you are hurt during the assault? Were you struck first? Is there a bruise on your neck where the assailant tried to strangle you? If you clam up, how do the police know about this exculpatory evidence? Having your lawyer tell the police three days after the event, “By the way, my client was assaulted,” isn’t going to do much good. It is best to turn the police detectives into your detectives, by letting them know of any injuries or other attacks to your person."

    Al
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,212 Senior Member
    I think it depends on the individual as well; if, in a stressful situation, you have a tendency to turn into a babbling idiot, keeping your mouth shut, at least to some extent, is advisable..
    However, if you have control of your faculties, you may save yourself the additional stress of being "cuffed and stuffed"
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    I think it depends on the individual as well; if, in a stressful situation, you have a tendency to turn into a babbling idiot, keeping your mouth shut, at least to some extent, is advisable..
    However, if you have control of your faculties, you may save yourself the additional stress of being "cuffed and stuffed"

    I think that statement is a bit over the top, but unless you are a lawyer, it is conceivable to explain things badly, stress will do that, also as the person involved, you will lose your objectivity, that is why a lawyer does not take on his or her own defense.

    Asking politely to have council present during questioning is a right, and gives time to collect ones thoughts and calm down.

    And usually if anyone does "get cuffed and stuffed" it is because they did or said something really crazy stupid, not because they invoked the right of council.

    It does not pay to cuss at cops or try to shove them around.

    I remember a case in old Anti Gun NYC where a homeowner was involved in a self defense shooting, he thought he was sure to go to jail as he had no gun permit, he was honest and forthright, the Detectives became his best friends and told the story in a way that no charges were filed against the homeowner.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,212 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    And usually if anyone does "get cuffed and stuffed" it is because they did or said something really crazy stupid, not because they invoked the right of council.

    No one said you'd go to jail because you asked to speak to a lawyer...but do you think you and the detectives are going to sit around the scene drinking coffee and munching doughnuts and shooting the bull until the lawyer you may or may not have on retainer finds the time in his or her busy schedule to show up? What if you need to find an attorney? Think they are going to cut you loose and tell you to give them a call when you find a lawyer?

    Trust me Doc...if the only thing you say to the detectives is "I intend to cooperate, but only after I talk with my lawyer" Not only WILL you go to the station and perch in an interrogation room until your lawyer shows up at some indefinite time in the future, BUT you are leaving the investigating officers with nothing to work with other than their own suppositions as to what went down...

    Did you read the articles Al posted? Very well reasoned stuff....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,599 Senior Member
    Now that our state has a castle/stand your ground law, I'm more comfortable talking...... a litttle bit.
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Banned Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    I know this sounds assinine but I would rather represent myself. Sometimes when I watch the shows like Dateline that feature stories of questionable deaths (by whatever means,) my observation is that a person that hires an attorney is found guilty more often than not. And the same stands true for the guy that hires an attorney and doesn't take the stand but sits there and lets his lawyer talk. People forget that you do have time to let your mind think before your mouth speaks after such an incident which is very important in not saying all the wrong things, including those that will hang you out to dry in an instant. They can't hold you for more than 72 hours without charging you btw.
  • QuinianQuinian Senior Member Posts: 707 Senior Member
    One of the reasons I prefer internet forums and text over phone calls or face to face talking is because I have an extremly hard time collecting my thoughts and clearly getting my point across and that's with out being stressed. This is well documented in my VA records. I wonder if that would come into play when I tried to explain to the officer what happend but sounded like an idiot studdering 2 year old that made very little if any sense at all.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,212 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    Now that our state has a castle/stand your ground law, I'm more comfortable talking...... a litttle bit.

    Good point...with strong Stand Your Ground and Castle Doctrine in place as it is in many states....defending yourself/family is now within the confines of the law...the prosecutor has to figure out if you did something outside the law in order to charge you with anything...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    My lawyer is a somewhat anti-gun liberal. He's also my brother, and he specializes in criminal defense and appeals. I'd still rather have him on my side than anyone else I can imagine, as he routinely instructs the judges he appears before on the finer points of the law, and I've never known him to be wrong! The judges don't like it, and the prosecutors he faces hate him with a purple passion, but he's good enough to get by with it!
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,212 Senior Member
    Is he licensed to practice in Kansas? If so...can I borrow him?
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 19,018 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    Is he licensed to practice in Alabama? If so...can I borrow him?
    (See edit)
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Did you read the articles Al posted? Very well reasoned stuff....

    I have usually had a good manner with LE, the last two incidents here ended well and the LEO's were very nice too, the general jist is they want to keep anything like that quiet...... did not need to have council, they were not trying to cause Me any trouble.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • SicSemperSicSemper New Member Posts: 16 New Member
    My dad a Federal Judge so not a issue.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    That was funny right there !!!!!

    Funny how folks think like that.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • orchidmanorchidman Senior Member Posts: 7,737 Senior Member
    SicSemper wrote: »
    My dad a Federal Judge so not a issue.

    Is that you Gecko???????? How are those steel plates holding out from all them 338 rounds?
    Still enjoying the trip of a lifetime and making the best of what I have.....
  • beartrackerbeartracker Senior Member Posts: 3,116 Senior Member
    Very good article and yes I have a lawyer.
  • Uncle BSUncle BS Member Posts: 380 Member
    mythaeus wrote: »
    Now, here's a very interesting article on the unintended consequences of remaining completely silent. I think it's a good read so that you can make your own decision on what you need to say: http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/unintended-consequences-of-silence

    Al


    I really liked that article.
    cpj wrote: »
    Wow. I never knew I enjoyed grilled foreskin.
  • cappy54cappy54 Member Posts: 269 Member
    one of my clients is one and i keep her # in my cell.
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