The media (which is the only source any of us have on this story)...they always make reference to the fact that it was a "gated community" and implications that it was a well to do area of town.
In Florida, there are a lot of these type communities...racially mixed and at the middle or lower end of the "hoyty-toyty" scale, especially in the Sanford area. It gives the residents a sense of security in areas that are otherwise moderately active in crime.
As was said, a real can of worms, and bad publicity for CHL people. Naturally the anti-gunners are going to milk this to death.
Just from reading the news reports, even if they're biased, it looks like this guy "deputized himself" and really stepped into it. No way this kid should have been shot, or even drawn down on. If a real LEO (or even a real licensed security guard) had confronted the kid, I seriously doubt there would have been a gun drawn at all.... "Excuse me, buddy. Could I please see your ID?" (hand maybe on weapon or taser grip but not drawn).
But this moron had to stick his nose where it didn't belong.
Of course I don't know the facts but my opinion right now is that the investigators should have retained the guy and later filed charges, even if they were involuntary manslaughter, something to put on the books instead of just letting him go home. If he'd been arrested "pending investigation" this would have not blown up.
As it is, this jerk makes it just that much more difficult for CHL people and even self-defense folks.
Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
The guy had "issues" if he had followed at a discreet distance, he would have followed him to the front door of his fathers home, there granted access, and that would have ended it.
the young man had not committed any crime, why did he call 911 anyway ? No act of vandalism etc.... it is a bit paranoid, if he wanted to play COP, he should have at least gotten himself appointed as a properly uniformed security guard.
"There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
All I know about this case is what I hear and read in the funny papers. It sounds to me, the Florida "stand your ground" law appied more to the kid's situation than the zimmerman. If the kid was old enough to carry and properly permitted he would have been OK to shoot Zimmerman the apparent agressor.
All I know about this case is what I hear and read in the funny papers. It sounds to me, the Florida "stand your ground" law appied more to the kid's situation than the zimmerman. If the kid was old enough to carry and properly permitted he would have been OK to shoot Zimmerman the apparent agressor.
I agree for the most part, however I maintain whatever the deal, the bottom line is this, Zimmerman had no duty to act, in fact since no crime was in progress, as he did not say, I saw a crime being committed, or I saw him breaking and entering or attempting arson, he did not apprehend a crime or witness one in progress or in any way shape or form attempt to stop a crime, he overstepped his bounds as a private party, not even acting within the limited authority of a hired security guard.
In any case I do not think the stand your ground law should apply if the person initiates contact with a potential aggressor outside the normal bounds of ones normal activities, going forth to question people, asking what they are up to etc if they belong there comes under the heading of looking for trouble.
Now if this guy had found someone lurking inside his parlor or front or backyard, perhaps that is one good example.
He killed a "suspicious" unarmed man, when I was a LEO, a LEO in that same situation would most likely face manslaughter or negligent homicide charges under the New York State penal code.
That is the reason patrol cars have cameras and sound recording ability, recorded evidence of the LEOs actions, as proof if those actions were proper or not.
Edited to add: as a Patrolman / LEO in that situation, on a regular patrol, and having taken time to get to know the residents of that area, I would have greeted the guy in a friendly way and quickly found out if he was visiting etc, made up a pretext and knocked on the door to confirm etc...... all done nicely in a way not to get anyone bent out of shape.
Example, I pull up and see suspicious male, Hello sir, how are you today ??? Have you seen two white teenagers running through here with spray paint today ?? no ?
You live here with your folks ?
Can we ask them to see if they have seen these kids ?
All very friendly and casual, cautious at the same time, because when you get to know folks on a friendly basis, things tend to work out very nicely.
"There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
Yesterday, my morning news station out of Pensacola let people call in to say weather they feel that the "stand your ground" law should be changed and every caller that they played stated that this shooting has nothing to do with the "S Y G" law. The liberals are trying to use this to get that law repealed.
Here, in Miami, it has been all over the news for days.
The shooter had no reason to confront this kid, even if he was suspicious. I get that Zimmerman is a LEO wanna be, but Trayvon when confronted also did not back down. So this is the case of a kid bringing skittles to a gun fight.
Castle Doctrine states that you don't have to back down if you fear for your life, so how would this apply to a fight in front of a bar? Same situation here in my opinion, except that Zimmerman is well schooled in what to say and what not to say in the case of a shooting and there are no other witnesses.
To me it sounds like they were about to get into a fight and Zimmerman shot Trayvon "in self defense". I don't know the law but it appears we have really stepped in some "stuff" here.
I don't know what the proper resolution will be...
D
"A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
Something went on we do not know about, but, I do agree somebody did overstep his bounds maybe both.
The kid is presented as a great kid by his community; however, I am wondering about some of the photos such as the one with the skull and cross bones and another in a hoodie, it could be innocent and, also, maybe not.
I am disturbed by some over reactions in other states, before proper investigations can be completed.
A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
Example, I pull up and see suspicious male, Hello sir, how are you today ??? Have you seen two white teenagers running through here with spray paint today ?? no ?
You live here with your folks ?
Can we ask them to see if they have seen these kids ?
All very friendly and casual, cautious at the same time, because when you get to know folks on a friendly basis, things tend to work out very nicely.
Doc, that's brilliant!
Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
0
breamfisherSenior MemberPosts: 13,046Senior Member
clothes do not make the man........ judge not etc etc........ :jester:
"There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
I can see this case causing a lot of scrutiny of Stand Your Ground....though I know of no clause in the law that allows you to create or escalate a situation to the point that you end up shooting a person...it appears that Mr. "Neighborhood Watch" created this situation and that was engaged in an incredibly bad shoot...From what I'm hearing today the local PD screwed this up incredibly...while the law allows you to defend yourself, it in no way precludes the PD from doing a complete and proper investigation of the incident to determine the veracity of the shooters statements and intent...This is going to be a huge mess that the anti-gun community is going to capitalize on...
Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
Lots of good comments on this thread, gentlemen. Makes me proud of the forum.
The shooter was way over the line in his interpretation of Florida's law and certainly did no favors to those of us who have spent years fighting for concealed carry.
Standard wear of teens all over the country. My son loved his hoodies when he was in HS and so did 95% of the boys I saw in his school. All kids wear clothing that is considered "objectionable" by our grown-up standards...
Those things (hoodies) go WAY further back than that. When I was growing up, they were worn not just by kids, but farmers, too, that had to do chores in cold weather. Kept the old haidbone warm in the cold wind. They were most popular in the pullover variety because they had that big pocket in front that had slits in either side to jamb your hands in. They were pretty popular with sports teams then, and now, as warmup clothes, and when you're sitting on the bench to keep warm.
My feeling about the situation is that if Zimmerman had stayed in his vehicle, we wouldn't be talking about this, and a 17 y.o. would still be alive. I don't believe the FL SYG law was ever intended to cover pursuing someone and causing a situation to escalate into a deadly force confrontation. Going to be up to the courts to untangle this mess.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
News media is playing this for all it's worth. Trayvon was 6'2" tall; the photo they are using is from several years ago when he was 12-13 y.o. Zimmerman is of Cuban extraction. He was arrested for being in an altercation with a cop during an arrest of his friend. Plea bargained down from assault on an officer so he could have a CCW. There are few facts out there, but there is a dump truck load of conjecture and innuendo making the rounds. Let the judicial system hash it out; innocent until proven guilty still applies.
Amen Mike, wise words indeed. We don't know jack of the real circumstances. That's why we have Law Enforcement officers. Let them do their job.
Daddy, what's an enabler?
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
Standard wear of teens all over the country. My son loved his hoodies when he was in HS and so did 95% of the boys I saw in his school. All kids wear clothing that is considered "objectionable" by our grown-up standards...
It realy is not the hoodie I refered to it was looking tough while wearing the hoodie and knowing he is being photographed; you would have had to look at the photo.
All I referring to is those two photo shown were poor choices to make a case for an innocent little boy as they are putting out to the world.
And as I said, it could all be innocent behavior; so why show those photos if innocence is the agenda.
And most importantly, I have nothing against hoodies as long as I don't have to wear them. Besides my hoodie reference was merely a reference to identify a particular photo, nothing more.
A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
I remember when I was ten years old, being asked by beat cops in a black & white patrol car what I was doing in My neighborhood, I found it a very strange question as I played in front of the same building I lived in.
Police presence had peaked during the time of the son of Sam murders,one of them close enough for Me to hear the shots that evening being My window was open.
"There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
Look I am a state lic. firearms instructor in florida and the guy just plain old F ..........up, no need to discuss The stand your ground is not for prejudice vigilanties.
Here, in Miami, it has been all over the news for days.
The shooter had no reason to confront this kid, even if he was suspicious. I get that Zimmerman is a LEO wanna be, but Trayvon when confronted also did not back down. So this is the case of a kid bringing skittles to a gun fight.
Castle Doctrine states that you don't have to back down if you fear for your life, so how would this apply to a fight in front of a bar? Same situation here in my opinion, except that Zimmerman is well schooled in what to say and what not to say in the case of a shooting and there are no other witnesses.
To me it sounds like they were about to get into a fight and Zimmerman shot Trayvon "in self defense". I don't know the law but it appears we have really stepped in some "stuff" here.
I don't know what the proper resolution will be...
D
Dan read statute 776, justifiable use of force or the book by criminilist Jon Gutmacher, Florida firearms law, use and ownership its all in the statute 1 page back and front.
Look I am a state lic. firearms instructor in florida and the guy just plain old F ..........up, no need to discuss The stand your ground is not for prejudice vigilanties.
Originally Posted by National Biased Commune News
''All of the States are reviewing their Stand your Ground laws in the wake of this tragedy''.....
Let them look. Any idiot should be able to see that standing your ground does not apply in what we have heard of this story so far. The city of Sanford has pressure coming down on them from pro-gun people, anti-gun people, and just about everyone else. I believe that a grand jury is investigating now. I am sure that we will find that the shooter cannot use stand your ground as a defense unless he legitimately used it as the law was intended.
Any idiot should be able to see that standing your ground does not apply in what we have heard of this story so far.
That's what scares me kinda...a lot of idiots are already twisting this tragedy to fit their own political agenda...my fear is that a bunch of the clueless are listening...
Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
That's what scares me kinda...a lot of idiots are already twisting this tragedy to fit their own political agenda...my fear is that a bunch of the clueless are listening...
From what I have read there is a large loophole in the law.
Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
We shall see. Wasn't their an article about a rival gang shoot out and they claimed self defense. How this shoot happened and self defense is even considered, is ludicrous. We shall see what happens there has to be more to this story.
Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
While I have not studied that law, I am very sure nothing in that law can be misconstrued as go start all kinds of mess, then stand your ground, and defend yourself if need be.
N.Y.S. penal code has always been quite explicit on the use of force and deadly force and when these can be used, mostly the SYG law takes up over the elimination of the duty to retreat in the event of an unprovoked attack, emphasis on unprovoked attack.
This guy was told not to interfere, to stay out of it by the Dispatcher, he insisted on poking in, he was NOT a LEO, he was not a duly sworn agent of the law, he was not a trained authorized security guard, bottom line his actions went against proper advice and common sense and he was operating far outside the scope of intent of law, so therefore the SYG law does not apply in this case as he was the aggressor in that he initiated contact with said person after he was advised not to initiate contact or follow this individual or to take any action at all.
Edited to add:
Perhaps the law should be called something to the effect of, The stand your ground while minding your own business and not provoking anyone law.
I know it sounds silly but people have to understand the scope of intent of such a law, it covers people engaged in normal day to day activities, walking, running, driving a motor vehicle or non motorized vehicle, in your own home and property and not have to retreat from anyone if they attack you without provocation, unless you preface the attack by interfering in other folks business uninvited and without any official authority or sanction.
This law is not a license to act up, then yell self defense.
"There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
I will say that I do get ignorant, yet well meaning neighbors that walk up and beat on the door (with a big chip on their shoulder) of houses that I am inspecting while asking who in the hell I am. I usually answer that it is private property, I am the person that is authorized to be there, and they are not... Who the hell are they? It usually works to get them to drop the attitude and we can have a civil conversation. The last thing I need is to run into an idiot like that Zimmerman guy. I am already on edge from going into a dark abandoned house in the inner city. I don't need some hero wanna-be charging in.
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Replies
Just from reading the news reports, even if they're biased, it looks like this guy "deputized himself" and really stepped into it. No way this kid should have been shot, or even drawn down on. If a real LEO (or even a real licensed security guard) had confronted the kid, I seriously doubt there would have been a gun drawn at all.... "Excuse me, buddy. Could I please see your ID?" (hand maybe on weapon or taser grip but not drawn).
But this moron had to stick his nose where it didn't belong.
Of course I don't know the facts but my opinion right now is that the investigators should have retained the guy and later filed charges, even if they were involuntary manslaughter, something to put on the books instead of just letting him go home. If he'd been arrested "pending investigation" this would have not blown up.
As it is, this jerk makes it just that much more difficult for CHL people and even self-defense folks.
Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
the young man had not committed any crime, why did he call 911 anyway ? No act of vandalism etc.... it is a bit paranoid, if he wanted to play COP, he should have at least gotten himself appointed as a properly uniformed security guard.
I agree for the most part, however I maintain whatever the deal, the bottom line is this, Zimmerman had no duty to act, in fact since no crime was in progress, as he did not say, I saw a crime being committed, or I saw him breaking and entering or attempting arson, he did not apprehend a crime or witness one in progress or in any way shape or form attempt to stop a crime, he overstepped his bounds as a private party, not even acting within the limited authority of a hired security guard.
In any case I do not think the stand your ground law should apply if the person initiates contact with a potential aggressor outside the normal bounds of ones normal activities, going forth to question people, asking what they are up to etc if they belong there comes under the heading of looking for trouble.
Now if this guy had found someone lurking inside his parlor or front or backyard, perhaps that is one good example.
He killed a "suspicious" unarmed man, when I was a LEO, a LEO in that same situation would most likely face manslaughter or negligent homicide charges under the New York State penal code.
That is the reason patrol cars have cameras and sound recording ability, recorded evidence of the LEOs actions, as proof if those actions were proper or not.
Edited to add: as a Patrolman / LEO in that situation, on a regular patrol, and having taken time to get to know the residents of that area, I would have greeted the guy in a friendly way and quickly found out if he was visiting etc, made up a pretext and knocked on the door to confirm etc...... all done nicely in a way not to get anyone bent out of shape.
Example, I pull up and see suspicious male, Hello sir, how are you today ??? Have you seen two white teenagers running through here with spray paint today ?? no ?
You live here with your folks ?
Can we ask them to see if they have seen these kids ?
All very friendly and casual, cautious at the same time, because when you get to know folks on a friendly basis, things tend to work out very nicely.
The shooter had no reason to confront this kid, even if he was suspicious. I get that Zimmerman is a LEO wanna be, but Trayvon when confronted also did not back down. So this is the case of a kid bringing skittles to a gun fight.
Castle Doctrine states that you don't have to back down if you fear for your life, so how would this apply to a fight in front of a bar? Same situation here in my opinion, except that Zimmerman is well schooled in what to say and what not to say in the case of a shooting and there are no other witnesses.
To me it sounds like they were about to get into a fight and Zimmerman shot Trayvon "in self defense". I don't know the law but it appears we have really stepped in some "stuff" here.
I don't know what the proper resolution will be...
D
Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
The kid is presented as a great kid by his community; however, I am wondering about some of the photos such as the one with the skull and cross bones and another in a hoodie, it could be innocent and, also, maybe not.
I am disturbed by some over reactions in other states, before proper investigations can be completed.
Doc, that's brilliant!
Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
Come to think of that, my agency issues hoodies for its personnel to wear. We're a bunch of hoodlums!
clothes do not make the man........ judge not etc etc........ :jester:
The shooter was way over the line in his interpretation of Florida's law and certainly did no favors to those of us who have spent years fighting for concealed carry.
Those things (hoodies) go WAY further back than that. When I was growing up, they were worn not just by kids, but farmers, too, that had to do chores in cold weather. Kept the old haidbone warm in the cold wind. They were most popular in the pullover variety because they had that big pocket in front that had slits in either side to jamb your hands in. They were pretty popular with sports teams then, and now, as warmup clothes, and when you're sitting on the bench to keep warm.
My feeling about the situation is that if Zimmerman had stayed in his vehicle, we wouldn't be talking about this, and a 17 y.o. would still be alive. I don't believe the FL SYG law was ever intended to cover pursuing someone and causing a situation to escalate into a deadly force confrontation. Going to be up to the courts to untangle this mess.
Amen Mike, wise words indeed. We don't know jack of the real circumstances. That's why we have Law Enforcement officers. Let them do their job.
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
All I referring to is those two photo shown were poor choices to make a case for an innocent little boy as they are putting out to the world.
And as I said, it could all be innocent behavior; so why show those photos if innocence is the agenda.
And most importantly, I have nothing against hoodies as long as I don't have to wear them. Besides my hoodie reference was merely a reference to identify a particular photo, nothing more.
Police presence had peaked during the time of the son of Sam murders,one of them close enough for Me to hear the shots that evening being My window was open.
Dan read statute 776, justifiable use of force or the book by criminilist Jon Gutmacher, Florida firearms law, use and ownership its all in the statute 1 page back and front.
They sure seemed to have dropped the ball on this one.
Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
NBC news did a whole segment on it tonite.
From what I have read there is a large loophole in the law.
N.Y.S. penal code has always been quite explicit on the use of force and deadly force and when these can be used, mostly the SYG law takes up over the elimination of the duty to retreat in the event of an unprovoked attack, emphasis on unprovoked attack.
This guy was told not to interfere, to stay out of it by the Dispatcher, he insisted on poking in, he was NOT a LEO, he was not a duly sworn agent of the law, he was not a trained authorized security guard, bottom line his actions went against proper advice and common sense and he was operating far outside the scope of intent of law, so therefore the SYG law does not apply in this case as he was the aggressor in that he initiated contact with said person after he was advised not to initiate contact or follow this individual or to take any action at all.
Edited to add:
Perhaps the law should be called something to the effect of, The stand your ground while minding your own business and not provoking anyone law.
I know it sounds silly but people have to understand the scope of intent of such a law, it covers people engaged in normal day to day activities, walking, running, driving a motor vehicle or non motorized vehicle, in your own home and property and not have to retreat from anyone if they attack you without provocation, unless you preface the attack by interfering in other folks business uninvited and without any official authority or sanction.
This law is not a license to act up, then yell self defense.