Unarmed teen shot dead in self defense

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Replies

  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    You have a good point, when I was a LEO, I was helping a disabled partner (LODI) to move, I was alone in her home moving stuff out to a car, I had My shield and ID in a holder on a chain around My neck, as I was nearing the door with a lamp, suddenly I was confronted by uniformed city cops, NYCPD and pretty upset as a call had been made of a suspicious person possible B&E, man with a gun etc....... it was very hot and I had taken off My windbreaker, I found out later the landlord that lived downstairs had made the call.

    It turned out well, but was quite annoying to say the least.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,116 Senior Member
    When the cops come (and they do on occasion) I walk out with my hands out where they can see them, announce that I am armed, and state why I am there. It goes very smoothly after that. There shouldn't be any problems until I meet someone that thinks he is a cop. Nothing good will come from that.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,972 Senior Member
    If and it's a big "if" the Grand Jury applies the "Prudent Man Rule" in which the question is posed "What would a "prudent" or reasonable person do in similar circumstances....it's a slam dunk ...the shooter goes to jail for at least 2nd degree murder and the "Stand Your Ground" concept is exonerated...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I see it reduced to negligent homicide an accidental shooting.

    It is likely they will claim a struggle or a tussle, the "suspicious guy" finds the gun, a struggle by both men for control of said gun and as "they" the talking heads likes to say, the gun went off by itself.

    A tragedy preventable only by "STRICTER GUN CONTROL" !!! and close the Gun-show loophole while we are at it.

    Edited to add: The antis love this type of defense, blame the gun, not the actions of either of the two men, the anti gun clack is happy as they claim if no gun had entered the equation, it would have been solved as a mere fistfight, and claim it would have had no lethal outcome, contradicting the FBI uniform crime report that claims each year that more people are killed by fists and feet, than by firearms.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,669 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    I see it reduced to negligent homicide an accidental shooting.

    It is likely they will claim a struggle or a tussle, the "suspicious guy" finds the gun, a struggle by both men for control of said gun and as "they" the talking heads likes to say, the gun went off by itself.

    A tragedy preventable only by "STRICTER GUN CONTROL" !!! and close the Gun-show loophole while we are at it.

    Edited to add: The antis love this type of defense, blame the gun, not the actions of either of the two men, the anti gun clack is happy as they claim if no gun had entered the equation, it would have been solved as a mere fistfight, and claim it would have had no lethal outcome, contradicting the FBI uniform crime report that claims each year that more people are killed by fists and feet, than by firearms.

    I agree I think the ultimate result is Zimmerman does 2-5 yrs on a negligent homicide. Possibly as a plea deal.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,507 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    If and it's a big "if" the Grand Jury applies the "Prudent Man Rule" in which the question is posed "What would a "prudent" or reasonable person do in similar circumstances....it's a slam dunk ...the shooter goes to jail for at least 2nd degree murder and the "Stand Your Ground" concept is exonerated...

    And the public will have lost interest by then, and those swayed against SYG won't see it exonerated....

    Sent from my R800x using Tapatalk
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,116 Senior Member
    Rich Lowry from National Review agrees with Al Sharpton (hell just froze over)...
    http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/294226/al-sharpton-right-rich-lowry
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,116 Senior Member
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,619 Senior Member
    According to an article in USA Today, Zimmerman claimed that he was returning to his car and Treyvon followed him making him fear for his life. Even though the 911 recording and the statement by the girlfriend contradicted this, it was the basis for the police chief calling this self defense.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • cappy54cappy54 Member Posts: 269 Member
    It is unfortunate that the governer has ordered a task force to rewiew the stand your ground law here in florida. As i menttioned before the statute although may confuse a few it states that force can be met with force to include deadly force to prevent a forcible felony. Also it says that force to include deadly force can be used,when thereis or must be reasonable belief that a well founded fear of imminent violence by the alleged victim. This means that something is about to happen now, not an hour from now or later, but on an immediate basis usually within seconds, that it is so immediate that there is no way to reasonably avoid it.

    It is obvious that Zimmerman did not follow the criterias, to include having contacted 911 and not followed the dispatcher's request. now here will find ourself's for the mistake of some idiot fighting to defened the law that took so long to get passed. Also part of the problem is the misinformation that is givin at CWL classes, i have heard the most ridiculos explanations from so called instrutors, it is a combination of problems not the statute, as i stated before Zimmerman F..........up.
  • BullgatorBullgator Member Posts: 393 Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    ...contradicting the FBI uniform crime report that claims each year that more people are killed by fists and feet, than by firearms.

    Do you have a link to that report? I'd love to have that in my bookmarks.
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,111 Senior Member
    The shooter in this case was a student of a "Criminal Justice" program, and probably knew exactly what to say to the police in the investigation.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Perhaps working brains are in short supply, it would seem the previous suggestion would indicate a distinct lack thereof.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Jet pilotJet pilot New Member Posts: 29 New Member
    It took me all of one day on this forum to put him on my IGNORE list. He flames on just talking to himself with nobody reading his post. Funny as hell.
    Yours In Liberty,
    Bob
    Glock 27 NRA Life
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Bullgator wrote: »
    Do you have a link to that report? I'd love to have that in my bookmarks.

    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,111 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Just another pond scum spammer. He has been banned...
    I would love to know who you are talking about...I must have missed something.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • Jet pilotJet pilot New Member Posts: 29 New Member
    JJ and AS are on the scene. They are always helpful. :vomit:
    Yours In Liberty,
    Bob
    Glock 27 NRA Life
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,116 Senior Member
    Jet pilot wrote: »
    JJ and AS are on the scene. They are always helpful. :vomit:

    Agreed.:vomit:
  • AiredaleAiredale Banned Posts: 624 Senior Member
    About the kid shot by the neighborhood watch guy.

    This not about the "stand your ground law", it's about the responsibiliy of neighborhood watch groups to screen their applicants more closely.

    I live in a white ghetto that uses a watch group. They do a great job. None of them feel that they are policemen. They only observe and report.

    It's not the fault of the cops, they told Zimmerman to back off. He didn't, and we have a real mess on our hands.

    Jim
  • WhitewookieWhitewookie Member Posts: 181 Member
    What follows is just my opinion.

    I am a CCW holder and a stauch supporter of "Stand your ground" and Castle Doctrine laws. This deal had nothing to do with either.

    No law pertaining to CCW allows you to pursue or escalate a situation and then use deadly force. You must be in immediate, eminant, and grave danger of severe bodily harm or death, or be in the process of halting a forcible felony that could result in such, BEFORE THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE is allowed. This idiot was not. There was no crime in progress. He was not being attacked. In fact the young man wasn't even aware of him until HE MADE IT SO.

    For the sake of argument, let's assume that the kid was a no-kidding, card carryin' thug. Let's assume that he had been robbing and plundering earlier and planned on continuing to do so. Don't matter. **** didn't witness any of it, was not a victim of such himself, and most importantly, had no compelling reason to make contact with said thug. He pursued, he aggressed, he engaged. Bad shoot, end of story.

    The thing that pisses me off is that this idiot fell through the cracks and got a CCW, not because he should have, but because of some lawyer BS. Now this is going to be compounded by the ineptitude of the Sanford P.D.

    There is going to be a lot of fallout for good gun owners and carriers... Not to mention now we have to listen to Sharpton and Jackson run their mouths some more.

    Rant off.

    Harold
    RV,
    Harry
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." - Robert Heinlein
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,972 Senior Member
    First we have the Feds sticking their noses in a State matter.....and now Obama says "Trayvon looks like my son would have looked if I had a son"....

    Jesus Christ! What Next? Smiley_Signs-ImWaiting-1.gif kboom.gif
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • SlanteyedshootistSlanteyedshootist Senior Member Posts: 3,947 Senior Member
    Trayvon's father is Michelle's boyfriend????? This calls for a new reality show.:silly:

    Yep, it's getting deep.
    The answer to 1984 is 1776
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    I have no desire to take a position on either side of the fence officially, but I will make a comment to the general ethical overtones on the surface.

    If a 911 dispatcher advises you to remain at a distance and just be a witness, do so. Ethically, what position do you have to engage with a person who is "apparently" walking down the street and make an apparent detention (or attempt, it seems)? Even a gated community is "publicly accessible". Another fact also seems to fall on ignorant minds, but an unlawful detention by a civilian is no different than an unlawful detention by a LEO.

    Being an LEO myself, I feel a bias attitude--especially working nights--in which I tend to look at all manner of activity (regardless of a person's race) in neighborhoods at night as potentially suspicious. If no cause exists to conduct an investigative stop, then the consensual encounter is the prudent choice. If you are told to pound sand...well, enjoy your time at the beach.

    -Jason

    Time will tell after the Grand Jury convenes and I am curious to see how this case is disposed.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Trayvon's father is Michelle's boyfriend????? This calls for a new reality show.:silly:

    Yep, it's getting deep.

    :that:

    Break out the hip waders, and life jackets, it is bound to get even deeper as the talking heads spew more manure.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    cappy54 wrote: »
    It is unfortunate that the governor has ordered a task force to review the stand your ground law here in Florida.

    Rick Scott is, well, a puppet to his own ignorant mind. That said...

    There is no need to review this law. There is only for the grand jury to decide if Zimmerman is to be tried for 2nd Degree murder with some sort of culpable negligence addition.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    I have no desire to take a position on either side of the fence officially, but I will make a comment to the general ethical overtones on the surface.

    If a 911 dispatcher advises you to remain at a distance and just be a witness, do so. Ethically, what position do you have to engage with a person who is "apparently" walking down the street and make an apparent detention (or attempt, it seems)? Even a gated community is "publicly accessible". Another fact also seems to fall on ignorant minds, but an unlawful detention by a civilian is no different than an unlawful detention by a LEO.

    Being an LEO myself, I feel a bias attitude--especially working nights--in which I tend to look at all manner of activity (regardless of a person's race) in neighborhoods at night as potentially suspicious. If no cause exists to conduct an investigative stop, then the consensual encounter is the prudent choice. If you are told to pound sand...well, enjoy your time at the beach.

    -Jason

    Time will tell after the Grand Jury convenes and I am curious to see how this case is disposed.

    As a former LEO, x 2 first time in a Banana Republic, it depends where your beat is, if you work a small town, and you know lots of folks, the town gas pump **** etc..... and you see either him or one of the cafe waitresses walking home, I doubt you will find a need to roust either one, in any case just walking on the way to somewhere from somewhere on foot does not in any code of law I have read constitute probable cause to detain said individual.

    Every municipality has varying ordinances, curfews in place etc. and it is a LEOs duty to learn these as advised by superiors in briefings.

    A LEO gets a vibe or an instinct after a time working the streets, a big metropolis is different from a small town in as much as what actions and interactions a LEO will take in response to diverse situations.

    And again I repeat, a true "Gated Community" has no general public access or through traffic to anyone not a member of said gated community, the roads are private, you need permission from a resident to enter, the security officers or in some cases of ( Seagate in Brooklyn ) larger gated communities that I know of in NYC, have a Police force, duly sworn Officers under provisions of the State penal code, will not let vehicles or people in without proper authorization.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Gate,_Brooklyn
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    I don't disagree, and I don't know what sort of community it was the teen was shot in. But, who is to say he wasn't walking to a home in the community he was invited to after gaining access to the community with permission of a homeowner, etc, etc, etc. It can be theorized to death.

    Regardless of the teen's intentions in the community, it appears, on the surface, that the community watch person acted outside of a reasonable scope of duty he would have in such a position.

    Time will tell.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • BullgatorBullgator Member Posts: 393 Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Rick Scott is, well, a puppet to his own ignorant mind. That said...

    There is no need to review this law. There is only for the grand jury to decide if Zimmerman is to be tried for 2nd Degree murder with some sort of culpable negligence addition.

    I was disappointed to see the governor cave to the angry mob. I have supported him thus far, but I will no longer do so if he undermines SYG because of pitchforks and torches mentality.
  • 104RFAST104RFAST Senior Member Posts: 1,265 Senior Member
    WTVT Fox Tampa bay has reported that there is a witness to the entire event and reported that Zimmerman was attacked by Martin while Zimmerman
    was returning to his car. The witness also reported Martin had Zimmerman on the ground beating the crap out of him and Martin was shot during a struggle
    for the gun. Portions of the witness statement can be herd during the report. My road runner is acting up again, perhaps one of you guys can down load the
    video report. BTW I wish someone could fine a more recent photo of Martin, apparently he grew a lot sense the pictures being used by the MSM. Its very
    likely this could be another Rodney King event, its very important the facts come out, if it was a bad shoot,Zimmerman should go to jail,otherwise, L,A
    revisited.
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,942 Senior Member
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
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