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anti-gun media strikes again

blueslide88blueslide88 MemberPasco County, FLPosts: 273 Member
If you read or hear from any source that Florida's "stand your ground" law has been the cause of a dramatic increase in its "justifiable homicide" rate, using statistics from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, be assured that it is a lie.

The Tampa Tribune (quoting CNN), and the Tampa Bay Times have very recently editorialized against the "stand your ground" law using the above as evidence. I investigated those stats, called the FDLE and checked their site, because it does NOT publish such stats.

The FDLE does keep that record internally, however, and it is available to the public upon request. The problem is how the FDLE defines "justifiable homicide" (as reported to it by Florida's Law Enforcement agencies). It's definition is:

"The killing of the perpetrator of a serious criminal offense either by a law enforcement officer in the line of duty, or by a private citizen, during the commission of a serious criminal offense"

This definition has nothing whatsoever to do with any "stand your ground" issue, and only reflects the fact that LEs and citizens have killed more and more bad guys in the act of a serious crime. The stat is entirely irrelevant to any SYG situation. So goes the liberal and irresponsible media.

I'm trying to spread the word.
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Replies

  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    If you read or hear from any source that Florida's "stand your ground" law has been the cause of a dramatic increase in its "justifiable homicide" rate, using statistics from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, be assured that it is a lie.

    The Tampa Tribune (quoting CNN), and the Tampa Bay Times have very recently editorialized against the "stand your ground" law using the above as evidence. I investigated those stats, called the FDLE and checked their site, because it does NOT publish such stats.

    The FDLE does keep that record internally, however, and it is available to the public upon request. The problem is how the FDLE defines "justifiable homicide" (as reported to it by Florida's Law Enforcement agencies). It's definition is:

    "The killing of the perpetrator of a serious criminal offense either by a law enforcement officer in the line of duty, or by a private citizen, during the commission of a serious criminal offense"

    This definition has nothing whatsoever to do with any "stand your ground" issue, and only reflects the fact that LEs and citizens have killed more and more bad guys in the act of a serious crime. The stat is entirely irrelevant to any SYG situation. So goes the liberal and irresponsible media.

    I'm trying to spread the word.

    I'm taking this "Stand Your Ground Law" as about the same thing as the Castle Doctrine, am I correct?

    If it is indeed about the same as the Castle Doctrine, then I don't pay any attention to the antis Condemnation of it. They don't care whether it helps the honest law abiding citizen safe or not, all they're looking at or thinking about is their agenda to disarm the common man again. Card Carrying, radical liberals hate the second amendment and will say and do anything to do away with it. They've been blowing smoke over the Castle Doctrine since Perry signed it in to law about 4 years ago. I think it's one of the best things Perry has done since he came into office.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Manistee Natl ForestPosts: 18,280 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    I'm taking this "Stand Your Ground Law" as about the same thing as the Castle Doctrine, am I correct?

    No...it is not the same thing..."Castle Doctrine" applies to your domicile...."Stand Your Ground" covers self-defense to include "any place you have a legal right to be"...off your property, etc etc etc.
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    Well, then I'm ready for some of that too. But my real message was don't worry about it, stand your ground on the law and raise hell at lawmakers every chance you get.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • AiredaleAiredale Banned Posts: 624 Senior Member
    I think you're right about the castle doctrine and stand your ground. Basically, it says that you can defend yourself or your home if you perceive that your life or your property are in danger.
    Isn't that what our Constitution guarantees us?
    I think Rick Scott signed that into law in Florida.
    This shooter (Zimmerman) seems to be a law enforcement wannabe. Wearing his manhood on the barrel of his firearm.
    He was told by local law enforcement not to follow this kid. His job was to observe and report, nothing more.
    Who knows? Maybe the kid was up to no good, but all the evidence says that he was unarmed.
    From the photographs, Zimmerman looks like a pretty robust guy and the kid looks like a skinny teenager.
    This one act by an over zealous neighborhood watch guy does tremendous damage to lawful, gunbearing citizens.
    I say throw the book at him.
    Jim
  • blueslide88blueslide88 Member Pasco County, FLPosts: 273 Member
    The castle doctrine has to do with defending your "castle" (home), whereby a person has no duty to retreat. However, when not a home, a person has a basic duty to retreat from the threat, whenever possible and practical. The SYG law says that you do NOT have any duty to retreat from any place that you have a legal right to be when faced with the threat of death or great bodily harm, you can defend yourself with deadly force. The antis are picking up on that Zimmerman case in Sanford, FL, using charges of racism (the shooter is Hispanic, the deceased is Black), and blaming the SYG law as the basic reason Zimmerman is "getting away with murder". The Sanford PD declined to prosecute him. I'm not addressing his guilt or innocence here, that's another story.
    The fact is that the FDLE stat they're using has NOTHING to do with SYG. The antis would love to attack and dismantle all the pro-gun laws Florida has introduced beginning way back in 1988 when CCW went into effect. Florida has over 900,000 valid CCW licenses right now, and that number is increasing every month, with over 90,000 non-resident licenses. Liberals love "incrementalism" as a tool, one law at a time, and they see an opportunity here.
  • rallykidrallykid Senior Member Murder MittenPosts: 657 Senior Member
    The old pictures they are showing are of this innocent little baby faced kid. Recent pictures show something different. The "kid" is 17 which is close enough to adulthood that he could be tried as an adult in court and is 6'2".
    No, I do not have a pink fuzzy bunny fetish but apparently my Facebook hacking wife does.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Matt-- The shooter appears to have stepped in it in a big way. Check the thread in the SD forum. Stand your ground is not the same thing as starting crap by confronting people for no other reason than looking suspicious.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Pensacola, FLPosts: 10,826 Senior Member
    rallykid wrote: »
    The old pictures they are showing are of this innocent little baby faced kid. Recent pictures show something different. The "kid" is 17 which is close enough to adulthood that he could be tried as an adult in court and is 6'2".

    Where have you seen a recent picture???? I haven't seen any where he is over 12...
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • rallykidrallykid Senior Member Murder MittenPosts: 657 Senior Member
    Oh no doubt if the evidence is what it appears to be he is guilty and should be locked up. However regarding the media bias about it they are showing pictures of what looks like a skinny little 12 year old which is definitely not what this guy looks like in recent pictures.
    No, I do not have a pink fuzzy bunny fetish but apparently my Facebook hacking wife does.
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Pensacola, FLPosts: 10,826 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Matt-- The shooter appears to have stepped in it in a big way. Check the thread in the SD forum. Stand your ground is not the same thing as starting crap by confronting people for no other reason than looking suspicious.

    The Shooter is definitely Up Sheep Creek, and the whole story has nothing to do with SYG...... BUT, the fact that the media uses this picture exclusively is biased and purposely inaccurate.....

    120313013941-trayvon-martin-story-body.jpg
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • rallykidrallykid Senior Member Murder MittenPosts: 657 Senior Member
    There was another pic I saw but I can't find it. There is one in this link as well as the picture of the "white man" who shot him who by the way is Hispanic. I have no doubt if the evidence is what it appears to be that this guy is in the wrong but the way the media is portraying it you would think 10,000 klansmen stormed the neighborhood and went on a killing spree. The shooter appears to be an idiot mall ninja but because he is of a different race than the guy who got shot they have to turn it into a hate crime. Why can't this guy just be an idiot regardless of his skin color?

    http://m.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin
    No, I do not have a pink fuzzy bunny fetish but apparently my Facebook hacking wife does.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member CA. Beach citiesPosts: 6,721 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    The Shooter is definitely Up Sheep Creek, and the whole story has nothing to do with SYG...... BUT, the fact that the media uses this picture exclusively is biased and purposely inaccurate.....

    120313013941-trayvon-martin-story-body.jpg

    Why is that?
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    I had just seen the clip that ABC news made about the increase of justifiable homicides since SYG has been around... The source was the Brady Campaign! That is like asking a KKK grand wizard to supply statistics on blacks. What a joke!
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Manistee Natl ForestPosts: 18,280 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    Why is that?

    Because this is NOT the 17 year old, 6 foot tall victim....

    I'm not saying that anything about this shooting is right, but the family , the rabble rousers and the media are playing the public by using pictures of a 12 year old kid...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Living in a van, down by the river.Posts: 14,033 Senior Member
    The kid was 6' 2", but I believe he weighed something like 140-150 lbs., while the shooter weighed 250. Even with the height, the kid was a bean-pole skinny thing.
    I'm just here for snark.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Manistee Natl ForestPosts: 18,280 Senior Member
    The kid was 6' 2", but I believe he weighed something like 140-150 lbs., while the shooter weighed 250. Even with the height, the kid was a bean-pole skinny thing.

    I agree...the shooter can't even possibly use the "disparity of force" argument...BUT by using the pictures they are using, they are skewing the facts and the American public is swallowing it hook, line and sinker...they even go so far as to refer to the victim as a "child"....when in reality he was a young adult....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • blueslide88blueslide88 Member Pasco County, FLPosts: 273 Member
    I was watching the local Fox channel (out of Tampa) news show earlier today because someone I know had an interview with Fox about this case. He got very little time, but Fox just about blew my mind in explaining why Zimmerman wasn't charged when LE arrived and investigated the incident. One cop wanted a manslaughter type charge, but he was apparently overruled. There was a witness, a male, who name is being withheld, who called 911. From his apartment second story window he saw "the guy in red" (Zimmerman was wearing a red shirt) on his back and hear him scream. The "other guy" was on top of the guy in the red shirt and was beating him up.
    The gunshot ensued. When interviewed that night, Zimmerman said he "was on his way to my truck" when he was attacked and beaten up by Martin, and that he acted in self-defense. If Zimmerman was on his way to his truck, then obviously he was retreating, and Martin was the clear aggressor in the act of a serious criminal offense (see above conditions for the FDLE's justifiable homicide category).
    This is all anti-gun politics, and actually has nothing to do with SYG.
    Incidentally, Zimmerman was bloody with grass stains and grass moisture on the back of his clothing. The witness was on 911 and also comments that he thought the guy in red was dead because he wasn't moving. Case closed, as far as I'm concerned. Where will the libs go now?
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Pensacola, FLPosts: 10,826 Senior Member
    I was watching the local Fox channel (out of Tampa) news show earlier today because someone I know had an interview with Fox about this case. He got very little time, but Fox just about blew my mind in explaining why Zimmerman wasn't charged when LE arrived and investigated the incident. One cop wanted a manslaughter type charge, but he was apparently overruled. There was a witness, a male, who name is being withheld, who called 911. From his apartment second story window he saw "the guy in red" (Zimmerman was wearing a red shirt) on his back and hear him scream. The "other guy" was on top of the guy in the red shirt and was beating him up.
    The gunshot ensued. When interviewed that night, Zimmerman said he "was on his way to my truck" when he was attacked and beaten up by Martin, and that he acted in self-defense. If Zimmerman was on his way to his truck, then obviously he was retreating, and Martin was the clear aggressor in the act of a serious criminal offense (see above conditions for the FDLE's justifiable homicide category).
    This is all anti-gun politics, and actually has nothing to do with SYG.
    Incidentally, Zimmerman was bloody with grass stains and grass moisture on the back of his clothing. The witness was on 911 and also comments that he thought the guy in red was dead because he wasn't moving. Case closed, as far as I'm concerned. Where will the libs go now?

    If this is true, why have I seen 5+ news stories and read 5+ articles by Major Media and none of them have managed to include this???

    (He was still wrong to ever get out of his truck in the first place)
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Living in a van, down by the river.Posts: 14,033 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    I agree...the shooter can't even possibly use the "disparity of force" argument...BUT by using the pictures they are using, they are skewing the facts and the American public is swallowing it hook, line and sinker...they even go so far as to refer to the victim as a "child"....when in reality he was a young adult....
    Oh, I agree with you there. As far as the disparity of force: even if Martin was a football player and the Zimmerman an out of shape guy, there's something to be said for being past the growth spurt and that awkward movement phase Martin might have been in.
    I'm just here for snark.
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Pensacola, FLPosts: 10,826 Senior Member
    Oh, I agree with you there. As far as the disparity of force: even if Martin was a football player and the Zimmerman an out of shape guy, there's something to be said for being past the growth spurt and that awkward movement phase Martin might have been in.

    If Zimmerman was on his back getting pummeled, he could have been in fear for his life. Still, he is at fault, he initiated the confrontation.................
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Living in a van, down by the river.Posts: 14,033 Senior Member
    Depends on who you listen to. Read a report, somewhere, where it was Martin on his back getting pummeled and screaming. Heard by multiple witnesses. When a witness told the cops she heard Martin screaming, she was corrected and told it was Zimmerman.

    Here's one source, don't know how good it is...
    http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2012/03/legal_deadly_force.html

    BTW, I'd doubt claims that Zimmerman wasn't moving. Witnesses reported coming out and seeing Zimmerman ON TOP OF Martin, with his hands on the back of his head (that's how blood probably got there) with a "Oh, ####!" look on his face, advising them to call 911.

    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-16/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-parents-20120316_1_witness-intimidation-police-job-press-conference
    From the article:
    Mary Cutcher, who lives in a townhome near where Trayvon was shot, said she heard what sounded like a child crying and then a gunshot. When Cutcher went outside, she said she saw Zimmerman crouched over the boy's body. Trayvon, who was shot once in the chest, was face down, Cutcher said.

    One more article: evidently, some saw the fight and while Martin may have been on top of Zimmerman, they did separate...
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136#.T20zONl6RSp
    I'm just here for snark.
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Pensacola, FLPosts: 10,826 Senior Member
    Depends on who you listen to. Read a report, somewhere, where it was Martin on his back getting pummeled and screaming. Heard by multiple witnesses. When a witness told the cops she heard Martin screaming, she was corrected and told it was Zimmerman.

    Here's one source, don't know how good it is...
    http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2012/03/legal_deadly_force.html

    BTW, I'd doubt claims that Zimmerman wasn't moving. Witnesses reported coming out and seeing Zimmerman ON TOP OF Martin, with his hands on the back of his head (that's how blood probably got there) with a "Oh, ####!" look on his face, advising them to call 911.

    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-16/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-parents-20120316_1_witness-intimidation-police-job-press-conference
    From the article:
    Mary Cutcher, who lives in a townhome near where Trayvon was shot, said she heard what sounded like a child crying and then a gunshot. When Cutcher went outside, she said she saw Zimmerman crouched over the boy's body. Trayvon, who was shot once in the chest, was face down, Cutcher said.

    One more article: evidently, some saw the fight and while Martin may have been on top of Zimmerman, they did separate...
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136#.T20zONl6RSp

    Exactly! Media is supposed to have standards. Why are the stories on NBC different than the ones on Fox??? Why are they picking and chosing the facts to include???

    Saw one on Fox where Zimmerman said he was hit from behind and had a wound on back of his head. He said he was on his back and his back was wet. Zimmerman has been robbed 8 times, that is why he would follow a strange teen near his house.
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Pensacola, FLPosts: 10,826 Senior Member
    "The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot."And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."Read more: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1q1EQaiPF

    This guy saw Z yelling for help. That may be why the LEO corrected the woman who only heard the yells....

    Zimmerman is guilty just by leaving his truck, but what he is guilty of is ?????????

    Trayvon was just protecting himself against 'some weird guy' that was following him from the store....

    What gets me (the original topic) is how the media is contributing to the misinformation and feeding the flames. They want the hype purely for $$$, not for the injustice of a teen losing his life for no reason.....
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Living in a van, down by the river.Posts: 14,033 Senior Member
    LE's not supposed to correct witnesses when they give statements. That's what the women allege.

    The thing here is, there's a great deal of confusion as to what happened. While the media seems to be portraying only one side of the confusion (and while I haven't watched Fox, if they're only reporting the others side they're JUST as biased as the other members of the media,) it is showing that there's conflict in the witness reports.

    Now, if we get down to the facts of the shooting: it seems that if Sanford PD had done a competent job, we might have less of an uproar. We don't know what the facts are, but the fact that there are two sets of very opposed accounts at this point indicates (to me) that things have not been thoroughly done as they should.
    I'm just here for snark.
  • robert38-55robert38-55 Senior Member Denver,Co.Posts: 3,621 Senior Member
    Now, if we get down to the facts of the shooting: it seems that if Sanford PD had done a competent job, we might have less of an uproar. We don't know what the facts are, but the fact that there are two sets of very opposed facts at this point indicates (to me) that things have not been thoroughly done as they should.

    Bream's got a point here! Some say that fact is stranger than truth. If the investigation was bached, by the LEO's it would not be the first, or the last time an investigation was bached by someone. I ain't bashing LEO's here I am just agreeing with Breamfisher here. There's three sides to every story" My side, Your side, and the truth.
    "It is what it is":usa:
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Living in a van, down by the river.Posts: 14,033 Senior Member
    Okay, kinda interesting... News article listing some of the untrue things being bandied about, and what really happened. Such as only one shot was fired, and that Zimmerman's gun is still in police custody. If it was a righteous shooting, Zimmerman should have had his gun back by now...

    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-23/news/os-trayvon-martin-questions-20120323_1_sanford-cops-sanford-police-investigator-suspicious-death
    I'm just here for snark.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member CA. Beach citiesPosts: 6,721 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    The Shooter is definitely Up Sheep Creek, and the whole story has nothing to do with SYG...... BUT, the fact that the media uses this picture exclusively is biased and purposely inaccurate.....

    120313013941-trayvon-martin-story-body.jpg

    I found this from his facebook page.

    trayvon_martin_facebook.jpg
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • conchokidconchokid Administrator West VirginiaPosts: 512 Senior Member
    Let's all understand that this case is going to be in the news for months, perhaps years. There was apparently a fight, somebody got shot and died. I hope you all agree that this shouldn't have happened. And a stupid photo on a Facebook page doesn't mean a lot, though I'm sure we won't see it on MSNBC or NBC.
    Right now all we know is what we see or hear in the news, and it has been well stated in this thread that the media is mainly interested in ratings, getting the scoop, maybe a Pulitizer. So you can't believe everything you hear, and until Zimmerman is charged with a crime and goes to trial, we aren't going to see some real evidence.
  • blueslide88blueslide88 Member Pasco County, FLPosts: 273 Member
    The media is ignoring any "evidence" supporting Zimmerman's claims. I was able to get a copy of the initial incident report by the Sanford police, and it sure looks genuine. Here's the link for your info:

    http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf

    Note Officer Smith's observations re: Zimmerman, the bleeding nose and bleeding wound on the back of his head, and the grass stains, etc. Now we are gaining factual information. Now tie the police report into this story by Fox Tampa which was just released and supports what it said on the news TV show I watched, about a newly disclosed witness who adds some more detailed info:

    http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

    The truth is elusive, but I'm determined to dig as best I can. The liberal media is acting just like a lynch mob, it sure seems to me. Now they've got the feds involved with no evidence whatsoever of a racist issue. Could this be politics? Remember that Florida is a key state in the presidential election process, and is currently leaning (pro-gun) Republican.
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Lake County, FloridaPosts: 7,927 Senior Member
    Hmmm...this certainly seems to change what we have already heard.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
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