If this just helps one other person....

ChuckXXChuckXX BannedPosts: 103 Member
If this just helps one other person then that will be a GOOD THING. I normally carry "Hornady Critical Defense" in my 9mm for CC. But when I go to the practice range at the Bullet Hole I usually shoot lots of the cheap stuff. Normally I shoot Winchester White Box 147 grain JHP. Now that load travels at a slow 990 feet per second and it being a hollow point I figured once in a while if I leave it in my pistol no harm no foul. Well today I had "some spare time" and decided to look that load up on YOU TUBE and watch a ballistics test on it. Well it scared the Beejesus out of me. The shooter used a 9mm glock and the bullet went straight thru all 5 paper filled wet jugs and continued to go into the woods behind. He commented that this is not a good load for concealed carry because it just keeps going and going and going. It went thru over 27 inches of heavy material. My point in trying to help others is if you carry concealed like I do besure and have a load that is not going to go thru the bad guy and keep on going. I never realized that a cheap slow traveling heavy bullet like that would do that. Thanks to YouTube I will never carry that load for "concealed carry". Hopefully I can help atleast one other person who has not thought thru the potential ramifications of what some of these bullets are capable of doing. I will stick with my Hornady Critical Defense load as that has been tested vigorously and goes in "eleven inches" and no farther. Atleast thats what the test result was. Hopefully you guys will not be too hard on me as Iam just trying to help others.

Replies

  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,652 Senior Member
    What is this? and how about a link.
    5 paper filled wet jugs
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,652 Senior Member
    Damp confetti? Where is Paul.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G45AQwzqaas
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,652 Senior Member
    This video shows water in the jugs. Either way 5 or 3 jugs it's still going to exit the body if all it hits is soft tissue.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iD6Re_Gwcwc
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,672 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    Damp confetti? Where is Paul.
    Have no fear, I is here :tooth:

    Funny, this 147 WWB penetrated only an inch or so more than a Critical defense and about the same as a 115 Gold dot
    Kahr5.jpg
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,652 Senior Member
    Interesting.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • SirGeorgeKillianSirGeorgeKillian Senior Member Posts: 5,458 Senior Member
    Careful who's opinion you take on the subject of terminal ballistics and its testing. Also remember, you are not shooting milk jugs, wet newspaper, or confetti, those things seldom present enough of a threat to warrant lethal action. Real bodies have things like bone and flesh that behave much different than the above mentioned media.

    I have to say that I trust Paul's testing much more than your video you posted.
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I'm in love with a Glock
  • ChuckXXChuckXX Banned Posts: 103 Member
    I got the info off of YouTube and its the same guy that does most of the testing. He has done dozens and dozens of different tests on ballistics and posted them on YouTube. Don't know his name but I do trust him. Seeing is believing. Iam not here to start an argument. My point was to help guys who carry concealed but might be carrying the wrong type of ammo.
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,245 Senior Member
    As has been said here before, by more knowledgeable people than me, ALWAYS be aware of your backstop, no matter what ammo you may be using.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,904 Senior Member
    I looked at those videos and yes there is some paper in those jugs and it looked wet; but, not enough wet paper to be meaningful for the eval I think is meant here.

    I agree that if you shoot different ammo into the same medium, one can get a feel for which bullet performs apparently better than others.


    In this case I seriously doubt any of the filled jugs are the same as any of the others because of the choice of medium and difficulty of filling the jugs and packing the material. I wounder if the results would not have been the same if plain water was in the jugs.

    Realize my comments come from a guy that tests ammo in 2 mediums that no one else accepts as a valid substance to run a test with; but, my testing tgts are the same each time and as identical as a back yard tester can can put together on the cheap.

    But, I agree with the OP that 147 gr 9mm could have a pass through hazard and so could any bullet bigger or smaller.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 6,945 Senior Member
    I guess it depends on what aspects of ammo performance scare you more. While I'm not very trusting of You Tube, and less so of homebuilt substitutes for ballistic gel, your post would leave me much more inclined to carry WWB in favor of HCD.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,672 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    I guess it depends on what aspects of ammo performance scare you more. While I'm not very trusting of You Tube, and less so of homebuilt substitutes for ballistic gel, your post would leave me much more inclined to carry WWB in favor of HCD.
    Well Big, I've never claimed the wet paper testing I do is a substitute for anything. All it is, is a cheap, easily repeatable medium for comparing bullet performance in. As long as they don't change the composition of newsprint, I expect anyone can soak some to saturation and get similar performance to what I do.

    As Dan J once said, the key to using wet newsprint is when comparing a bullet of known performance against an unknown. In that case, irregardless of the medium, if the known bullet penetrates/expands/whatever more or less in one medium, it's a pretty safe bet it'll do the same (to some degree) in any medium
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • beartrackerbeartracker Senior Member Posts: 3,116 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    Damp confetti? Where is Paul.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G45AQwzqaas

    On this one it looks like the layers of denim jean material filled the hollow point and it then acted like a full metal jacket. I do not like hollow points for self defense but that is a preference of mine.
  • beartrackerbeartracker Senior Member Posts: 3,116 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    This video shows water in the jugs. Either way 5 or 3 jugs it's still going to exit the body if all it hits is soft tissue.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iD6Re_Gwcwc

    This bullet acted better but that is still a lot of penetration but I suspect it will work a little different on a human body especially if bone is engaged or the person has a lot of clothing on due to cold weather. Anyway, it is very interesting.
  • beartrackerbeartracker Senior Member Posts: 3,116 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    Have no fear, I is here :tooth:

    Funny, this 147 WWB penetrated only an inch or so more than a Critical defense and about the same as a 115 Gold dot

    + ONE As Buford said, "interesting"
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,672 Senior Member
    On this one it looks like the layers of denim jean material filled the hollow point and it then acted like a full metal jacket.
    I have a feeling you're probably correct. Mine was shot into "bare" newsprint
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 15,056 Senior Member
    As has been said here before, by more knowledgeable people than me, ALWAYS be aware of your backstop, no matter what ammo you may be using.

    Yep.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,803 Senior Member
    ChuckXX wrote: »
    I got the info off of YouTube and its the same guy that does most of the testing. He has done dozens and dozens of different tests on ballistics and posted them on YouTube. Don't know his name but I do trust him. Seeing is believing. Iam not here to start an argument. My point was to help guys who carry concealed but might be carrying the wrong type of ammo.

    As Sir George said here and others mentioned, Be careful where you get your information. There's a whole bunch of idiots out there that post stuff up on a Utube that haven't a clue what they're doing. People will naturally think, "WOW! This was on UTUBE so it's gotta be correct, Right? Well no. Next time, fill you some jugs with Jello and try it yourself. But don't feel down over this, it is a great learning example and those of us that already knew this got reminded which never hurts.

    BTW, I have been using White Box Winchester for carry for a long time. I like it.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I generally don't give a rats posterior what some guy I don't know says on the Internet / You Tube about ammo, Now when Knitepoet / Paul or Teach / Jerry speak about ammo, I listen because they actually know more than I do, they have established credibility here as has Bigslug and many others on the forum.

    While I generally buy Federal, I may pick up some Winchester white box ammo, I trust it to do what I need it to do.

    The whole over penetration issue is way overblown by folks that don't understand penetration, As has been pointed out, ballistic mediums are a great way to establish a baseline reference to compare bullet expansion in various bullet types, this in no way is equal to how bullets perform on live human bodies.

    I also tend to stick with what I know works, this may or may not limit Me, but it won't have Me as a gunea pig trying out stuff that will introduce an X- factor an unknown element into the Personal Defense equation.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,904 Senior Member
    Probably a good testing medium would be to team up with a hog farm and shoot the dead hogs before they go in the rendering dumpster.
    A Veteran is someone that served in the Military, it does not matter where they served.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    The morgue is a great place to study the terminal effects of ballistics, saw enough in the various ERs when in EMS, and in LE.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
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