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Don't know if this is political or not, but why aren't police "civilians?"

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Replies

  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Don't be silly, I did not sing anything, and I was talking about turning evidence, something I never did.....
    and since I am not serving currently as a LEO, I have nothing to worry about.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,493 Senior Member
    Okay, sign. What did you mean by that?

    Your reason as to why they were low, I see now. You added that after I asked my question.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    In My Department and others if a LEO turned evidence to IA or in any way testified against another Officer, perhaps they would not overtly harm that Officer, but word would get around like wild fire, and if that Officer ran into a situation were he needed backup or getting shot at etc...... He would not get help in a timely fashion, besides being shunned as a "RAT" in many cases this being painted on his car, his home, his locker etc..... forcing some to quit or even commit suicide, this includes being completely shunned socially.

    That is why I said that turning evidence as akin to signing ones own death warrant, of execution in a sense, looking to get killed off, either indirectly or perhaps even directly........

    BTW, even LEOs from LE Departments would shun you and not rush to help you, once you were fingered as a "RAT".....

    This is what happened to the real life Serpico of NYPD fame back in the 1960's when the Knapp commission was formed to deal with Police corruption of that era.

    The rest was added to the other post afterwards, because I hit the touch pad too soon.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,493 Senior Member
    No worries on the rest being added.

    The thing about turning evidence to IA does lead to distrust between the police and those who aren't LEOs. It's "the thin blue line" folks speak of, and (right or wrong) it gives a lot of people the idea that if a police officer is abusing his power then the other officers will do nothing about it.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Banned Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    The LEO's that I don't understand are the ones that remain paranoid and profile everybody as being the "one," that is gonna cause them harm. Its like me being a mechanic saying "oh my God I can't believe I busted my knuckles." Well no ?*@! sherlock. If you weren't expecting it as a possibility, than change careers, but don't be a douche to everyone in the meantime.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Until relatively recently, before the almost universal adoption of "shall issue" carry permits, there was only one way for someone afflicted with extreme paranoia to exert sufficient influence over the rest of the world to calm their irrational fears- - - -go armed all the time, hiding behind a badge. Granted, that's only a tiny minority of the people who carry a badge and a gun, but it's enough of a possibility that when they over-react to a tense situation it paints all their fellow officers with the same brush. Cookeville, Tennessee has an officer who has an irrational fear of dogs. He has shot three of them in the past couple of years, including one incident during a traffic stop that made the national news. To the best of my knowledge, he's still employed. Let's hope he has more self-control when dealing with people.

    I'm sure the overwhelming majority of LEO's don't fit that profile. When they join ranks to protect the bad apples, however, it's hard to figure out who can be trusted.
    Jerry
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,164 Senior Member
    I think the main reason the average law abiding citizen who has a bad taste for LEO's feels that way because if they are obeying the law every day, they never meet the LEO who goes by the book. They meet the LEO who pulls them over when they aren't doing anything wrong.

    I know it ticked me off when I got pulled over everytime I got off work the same time the bars were having last call. They just pulled you over so they could see if they could smell booze on you. They always looked in the back of the truck and on the floor boards with their flahlight. It was just a fishing trip.....
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Banned Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    I think the main reason the average law abiding citizen who has a bad taste for LEO's feels that way because if they are obeying the law every day, they never meet the LEO who goes by the book. They meet the LEO who pulls them over when they aren't doing anything wrong.

    I know it ticked me off when I got pulled over everytime I got off work the same time the bars were having last call. They just uuled you over so they could see if they could smell booze on you. They always looked in the back of the truck and on the floor boards with their flahlight. It was just a fishing trip.....
    Honestly you are onto something. I still have a biased opinion of cops from whe I was an 18 year old kid getting pulled over 2 to 3 times a week just because I was a teenager in a lowered, loud, riced out honda trying to take a friend home at night or just innocently joy riding. Their excuse for pulling me over was always that my license plate light was out, but when being sprawled and searched at my trunk, you could always see my license plate light was clearly functional. And they would dang near always find some way to justify the profiling.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    "I'm sure the overwhelming majority of LEO's don't fit that profile. When they join ranks to protect the bad apples, however, it's hard to figure out who can be trusted.
    Jerry"

    You are right, and in reality I was a great big douche bag, why ? because I did not want to risk everything, most LEO's, even the good ones still do not countenance any cop so called ratting anyone out, either a good cop or bad cop to IA, so even the goody two shoes will shun you, and not just from one agency, once you are fingered as a rat, other agencies LEOs, even FEDS will shun you..... and now there is text and e-mail to worry about.....


    Text book case, a straight arrow Lieutenant I knew almost lost everything because IA shoe-flies were shadowing him, and he forgot to pay for some hot-dogs and a soda, and walked out of the eatery, it was simple absentmindedness, something I have done when frequenting eateries where I was friends with the owner and chatting too much.

    IA tried to craft that event into graft & corruption charges and would have succeeded had not the Detectives Endowment association hauled in everyone involved and made them testify as to what really happened, and how the Lt had never accepted any free-bees.....

    That is why even straight cops eschew IA and talking to shoe-flies, it is how rabid IA can get to fry innocent cops that make innocent mistakes too.

    There are many mistakes that can land a cop in hot water with IA, some of them paperwork or procedure that does not involve abuse of the people one is sworn to serve and protect, and once IA smells blood, it is possible for lots of other things to come to light, small procedural errors of different kinds that get crafted into something unreal.

    IA is trained to twist the truth into something else and to fabricate a profile that could make Mother Theresa seem like Freddy Krueger.

    In a word most people hate IA for that reason, and anyone that turns a fellow Police Officer into IA is hated too.....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,493 Senior Member
    If you don't do anything wrong as a police officer, you don't have anything to fear from IA....
    Overkill is underrated.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,713 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    he forgot to pay for some hot-dogs and a soda, and walked out of the eatery, it was simple absentmindedness, something I have done when frequenting eateries where I was friends with the owner and chatting too much.

    Yea that happens all the time.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,670 Senior Member
    Sometimes when IAU has nothing else to do, they will actually set-up stings and try to entrap cops into doing something they might not ordinarily do. I suspect this was tried on me at least once during my first 2 years as a beat-cop. I didn't fall for the traps and never got in any trouble. IAU are like Nazi's in some PD's.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,493 Senior Member
    And what you accuse IA of doing, regular police are accused of doing in some towns. Howey-in-the-Hills has been accused of doing that with their speed limits (I know, minor stuff there,) and other PDs have been accused of doing similar. I think that's what folks are concerned over.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Sometimes when IAU has nothing else to do, they will actually set-up stings and try to entrap cops into doing something they might not ordinarily do. I suspect this was tried on me at least once during my first 2 years as a beat-cop. I didn't fall for the traps and never got in any trouble. IAU are like Nazi's in some PD's.

    But is it OK to use entrapment to get "Civilians" to do something wrong? Like planting vehicles with keys in the ignition in high crime neighborhoods?

    Or Robotic deer traps to catch poachers? Or female police officers walking the streets dressed like HOs to arrest Johns? Just curious what y'll thunk.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,493 Senior Member
    I think it becomes entrapment when the police try and coerce or otherwise force a person to do the illegal action. The decoys (and all three you have are that, in a way) are legal because you catch someone taking an opportunity. They're not trying to force you to do the action. I think that's the difference.

    BTW, having seen a robo-deer: it's not like they use a 10-pointer (5x5) with a massive body. Usually it's a scruffy little spike or 4-pointer (2x2.)
    Overkill is underrated.
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,164 Senior Member
    Honestly you are onto something. I still have a biased opinion of cops from whe I was an 18 year old kid getting pulled over 2 to 3 times a week just because I was a teenager in a lowered, loud, riced out honda trying to take a friend home at night or just innocently joy riding. Their excuse for pulling me over was always that my license plate light was out, but when being sprawled and searched at my trunk, you could always see my license plate light was clearly functional. And they would dang near always find some way to justify the profiling.

    That is a good a reason for a nightsticking as I've ever heard! cartman-cop-icon-avatar.png
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,670 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    But is it OK to use entrapment to get "Civilians" to do something wrong? Like planting vehicles with keys in the ignition in high crime neighborhoods?
    I don't think it should be used, unless there is some necessity for it, like a high-crime area where a lot of parked cars are stolen. Stolen car rings may be active in a certain area, and that may be the only tool the police have to bust the ring. I didn't say it was wrong in all cases, and I'm not even sure if the incident in my case was actually an intended trap, but that's the way it looked to me. My feeling is that the IAU in my county was very zealous, and they routinely attempted to weed out nubee-cops as wrong doers before anything happened to disparage the PD. This feeling was widespread in the department.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    But is it OK to use entrapment to get "Civilians" to do something wrong? Like planting vehicles with keys in the ignition in high crime neighborhoods?

    Or Robotic deer traps to catch poachers? Or female police officers walking the streets dressed like HOs to arrest Johns? Just curious what y'll thunk.

    Those types of entrapment and arrest are BIG moneymakers for LE and the court systems. Same for the property forfeiture laws for certain levels of crime. They are malum prohibitum enforcement. Malum prohibitum laws are major moneymaking enterprises for the LE and courts; malum in se laws cost the system a lot. So they tend to enforce the former a LOT to make money for the courts and LE departments.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,670 Senior Member
    I think it becomes entrapment when the police try and coerce or otherwise force a person to do the illegal action.
    Maybe entrapment is a bad word for what I was trying to describe...More like creating the opportunity, and see if you take the bait.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,670 Senior Member
    And what you accuse IA of doing, regular police are accused of doing in some towns. Howey-in-the-Hills has been accused of doing that with their speed limits (I know, minor stuff there,) and other PDs have been accused of doing similar. I think that's what folks are concerned over.
    How is going faster than the posted limit entrapment? If you have a posted speed limit, and people are going faster than the posted limit they get a ticket. Howie-in-the-hills is a notorious speed trap. They are over-zealous, and I don't agree with that policy, just to generate extra income for the village. By the way, I often cruise through there with my motorcycle, and NEVER go over 35 in their downtown area...I believe that's their posted speed limit.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,493 Senior Member
    Howey used to be bad about going from 55 to 35 with no warning or decel areas. They got in a bit of trouble for that. And you're right, it's a money maker.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,670 Senior Member
    They may have done in the past, but I have not seen that done lately. As you say, they may have gotten in trouble for that policy.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,493 Senior Member
    Yeah, they got their hands slapped. That being said... I wouldn't fart too hard there when you're on your bike. You might hit 36 mph and get a ticket!
    Overkill is underrated.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    There werer a few towns on the Florida-Alabama border back in the 1950's and 60's that were so notorious about speed traps that Triple-A started routing tourists around them on their way to the Florida beaches. They turned into ghost towns from the lack of business and they begged AAA to stop that practice. No dice! It was several years before the warnings on tour packages were removed. One situation involved a truck driver for Anderson Fish & Oyster Co. in Nashville. The town trumped up a speeding charge, threw the driver in jail, impounded his truck, and demanded an outrageous fine to release it. This was before the days of refrigeration units on trucks. Anderson contacted a local lawyer, posted bail for the driver, sent him a bus ticket, AND LEFT THE TRUCK IN THE TOWN IMPOUND LOT! Got any idea what an 18-wheeler load of fish smells like in a few days in the Florida sun once the ice melts? That little town never messed with Anderson's trucks again!
    Jerry
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Yeah, they got their hands slapped. That being said... I wouldn't fart too hard there when you're on your bike. You might hit 36 mph and get a ticket!

    Waldo FLA is terrible for being a speed trap!
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    Yea that happens all the time.

    It does happen, and some times, I almost walked out without paying for My meal because I was too busy chatting with the owner of the place, I have never asked for free food or coffee anyway........ And it was offered many times...

    The no free food thing was one of the changes after the Knapp commission...
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,164 Senior Member
    Town I grew up in put a 25mph speed limit on a state highway well out of town, knowing full well they were only allowed to reduce it to 35mph in city limits (except school zones).

    If you went to court, it was thrown out. But how many travelers are going to show up in court?? How many will miss a day of work over a $75 ticket???
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I am of the opinion that if LEOs would stop people, not to ticket them, but actively take an interest in getting to know the people in their area of patrol, things would go much smoother........ The ivory tower syndrome only promotes the Us vs Them mentality, shooting ranges are one of the best places for LEOs and others to meet on a common ground.

    When LEOs start to realize they serve the Public, many problems will evaporate.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,611 Senior Member
    Sometimes when IAU has nothing else to do, they will actually set-up stings and try to entrap cops into doing something they might not ordinarily do. I suspect this was tried on me at least once during my first 2 years as a beat-cop. I didn't fall for the traps and never got in any trouble. IAU are like Nazi's in some PD's.


    I can almost smell the irony. 'Course, my honker still ain't workin' perfectly, so it might just be poetic justice...
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    I can almost smell the irony. 'Course, my honker still ain't workin' perfectly, so it might just be poetic justice...

    An IA shoe-fly once wanted to see My service revolver, it had the old Pachmayr windowless grips, he wanted to check the serial number, I looked him in the eye and said, sure, try and snatch it out of My holster...... he declined and walked away shaking his head and muttering to himself......
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
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