Police brutality, what would you do?

mythaeus

WARNING: This story/video will make your blood boil.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/08/us/california-police-beating/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

Brief:
Kelly Thomas, the 37-year old homeless man, died days after his arrest
Two Fullerton, California, police officers face charges
One tells Thomas: "You see my fists? They're getting ready to f--- you up."
Thomas can be heard crying "Dad! Help me. Help me. Help me, dad."
One cop said: "We ran out of options so I got to the end of my Taser and I ... smashed his face to hell."

Living in a big city, I see similar stories (mostly not as severe) often and pay attention to them when they happen. I'm a law abiding citizen, but I don't know how abiding I can get when I or my loved one getting the living daylight beaten out of them. What would you do if you were carrying and being beaten by cops? What if you were there and the the one being beaten is your friend/wife/kid/husband AND you KNOW that they would be dead if you don't intervene? I've thought long and hard about my potential reaction, but I am not sure what I would do.

Please keep in mind that I DO acknowledge that the majority of LEOs are good and decent people. This isn't an attempt to bash or discuss how good/bad cops are. I'm just looking for your take on what would you, a concealed carrier, would do strictly on the situation itself.

Al

DoctorWho

As a non LEO, sadly, I would do nothing.......... there is nothing I could do that would not result in a worse case scenario.

bruchi

It can get realy bad, bad quality video but watch the entire thing.

http://www.vidmax.com/video/4726/Police_officer_shoots_and_kills_a_man_in_Puerto_Rico/

The other side of the coin, you can skip the first 2.5 minutes...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSgFt9l68sA

Teach

Most likely there will be an acquittal, with wrist-slaps all around, then back to business as usual.
Jerry

ADRidge

I'm not sure there's anything you could do... if you defend yourself, you'll get murdered anyway.

On the upside, evidently if you murder someone as a pig, you still get a paid vacation afterwords. Pretty sweet deal for them.

I can't wait to see what happens when they hit the california prison system.

bullsi1911

Funny how most police believe in general deterrence (Punish an offender as a warning to other people) until it comes to cops breaking the law.

The only thing you could do is film the incident and hope they get punished. If you try to step in, you will get murdered, or end up in jail for some reason.

DoctorWho

"Funny how most police believe in general deterrence (Punish an offender as a warning to other people) until it comes to cops breaking the law."

A LEO does not punish anyone...

I did not punish anyone as a LEO, I did not consider Myself judge, jury and executioner either.

mythaeus

Thank you all for your thoughts.

If my life or my loved ones' lives were on the line, due to criminals or criminals with badges, I'd likely act in the same manner. That's my thought anyway, how it will actually transpire may be a different story altogether. I just hope that I will never have to find out.

Al

bullsi1911

Obviously, police are not in the punishment phase of the criminal justice system. That is not what I said. But generally, police officers BELIEVE in general deterrence (then I gave a quick definition of general deterrence in parenthesis, in case someone had never heard of that term before) except in the case of cops breaking the law.

It sure was easier to type the first way when I assumed that the reader had a basic understanding of the Criminal Justice System. But I guess I have to spell everything out in it's totality.

DoctorWho

bullsi1911 wrote: »

Obviously, police are not in the punishment phase of the criminal justice system. That is not what I said. But generally, police officers BELIEVE in general deterrence (then I gave a quick definition of general deterrence in parenthesis, in case someone had never heard of that term before) except in the case of cops breaking the law.

It sure was easier to type the first way when I assumed that the reader had a basic understanding of the Criminal Justice System. But I guess I have to spell everything out in it's totality.

After two stints as a LEO in two Countries, I would think I had a basic understanding of Law and the Criminal Justice system here in the U.S.
I don't think General deterrence is an accurate description of what a LEO does, I would rather say a LEOs actions seem to have a deterrent effect on Criminal activity in general.....

And unless you are a Law Professor teaching a class, there is no need to pontificate about Law to someone that has more than once sworn to serve and protect......

Eli

mythaeus wrote: »

I'm just looking for your take on what would you, a concealed carrier, would do strictly on the situation itself.

People are people. If a person is trying to kill me or a loved one, I'm going to do my damnedest to stop them first. IF I live through the situation, I'll worry about the attackers occupation later on.

Eli

DoctorWho wrote: »

And unless you are a Law Professor teaching a class, there is no need to pontificate about Law to someone that has more than once sworn to serve and protect......

Are you certain? Because your previous response would seem to indicate otherwise.

DoctorWho

I was not responding to you, I am sure Bullsi1911 can speak for himself.....

"Are you certain? Because your previous response would seem to indicate otherwise."

I did not "indicate" anything more than My having a basic knowledge.....

Eli

DoctorWho wrote: »

I was not responding to you, I am sure Bullsi1911 can speak for himself.....

Of course you weren't I hadn't previously posted on this thread, and I sure he can.

However, this is a public forum, not a private chat......therefore people are allowed to respond even when they aren't included in the original conversation.


I realize that my initial response might've been unclear, so allow me to clarify. Saying that "A LEO does not punish anyone", is completely fantastical. That's like saying that bus drivers are not unsafe, or that religious authorities don't sometimes molest little kids.

To make such an asinine statement causes me to wonder, not if you've ever known any other cops, but if you've ever actually had interaction with another living human being.

I'm sorry, but anyone who's ever read a newspaper, watched the news, had access to the internet, or especially, known a police officer can tell you that cops do, in fact, punish people.

bullsi1911

DoctorWho wrote: »

I did not "indicate" anything more than My having a basic knowledge.....

...and a lack of reading comprehension. Last I'm going to post on this because it is cluttering up mytheus' thread, but there is nothing in anything I posted that said that police meted out a punishment or deterrence. Just that they believe in it -i.e. they believe that punishment handed out in the courts stands as a deterrence to other people committing the same kind of crimes.

Make_My_Day

I could be wrong, but it seems that California cops are the ones most involved in brutality cases. It also looks like they use the Taser a little too often in these cases where a suspect is slow to cooperate. The best way to act around police is to do what they say, and do it immediately. The guy in this case was a Schizophrenic and failed to move quickly enough for their satisfaction.

Quinian

cpj wrote: »

If they were beating my wife and kids, i pray for a good lawyer.

:that: other wise if it were someone random I'd get some good video of it and upload to youtube before the cop smashed my phone

DoctorWho

A LEO of any kind is not authorized to "Punish" anyone, any assault not in self defense is criminal in nature......

And My reading comprehension is not in question here, since you are neither My teacher or current employer.

Eli

DoctorWho wrote: »

A LEO of any kind is not authorized to "Punish" anyone, any assault not in self defense is criminal in nature......

On this, we agree.

NN

I've been Judge and Jury; but, they were not a capital cases.

tennmike

FWIW, I had no problem understanding what Bullsi1911 meant.
As to what I'd do in a situation like that (stranger getting beaten senseless by police), I would like to think that I'd intercede. At least that would get one of them to break contact with the victim. Reasoning with an amped up cop couldn't be much worse than a bull intent on stomping a mudhole in the middle of you.

NCFUBAR

I hate to rush to judgement based on that one video clip and what is reported by the media. What reason did they have for first approaching the man? Did he even offer any resistance? There may be something we don't see. Now the fact the coroner listed the cause death as a homicide and said he died after having his chest compressed, leaving him unable to breathe ... that shows some major force being used. The video does show 2 officers who seem to not be on the defensive and no mention of any injuries to them. Gotta make me think they where out of line and the man died due to their actions. The DA must see something or they would not have been charged as they were. It sucks for other LEOs that this type media coverage does reflect back on the badge that most wear with honor.

ghostsniper1

To answer the question... If it were my family, I were watching it go down like that and I had time to pull my ccw without them seeing me, well they would both be shot dead. If I were lucky a camera would catch the whole thing transpire, but even if it didn't, I'd rather be in jail than burying a loved one because of two douchebags.

DoctorWho

tennmike wrote: »

FWIW, I had no problem understanding what Bullsi1911 meant.
As to what I'd do in a situation like that (stranger getting beaten senseless by police), I would like to think that I'd intercede. At least that would get one of them to break contact with the victim. Reasoning with an amped up cop couldn't be much worse than a bull intent on stomping a mudhole in the middle of you.

Actually, I would rather face a bull than an amped up (steroids) LEO any day, the bull will be gentler in any case........

DoctorWho

NCFUBAR wrote: »

I hate to rush to judgement based on that one video clip and what is reported by the media. What reason did they have for first approaching the man? Did he even offer any resistance? There may be something we don't see. Now the fact the coroner listed the cause death as a homicide and said he died after having his chest compressed, leaving him unable to breathe ... that shows some major force being used. The video does show 2 officers who seem to not be on the defensive and no mention of any injuries to them. Gotta make me think they where out of line and the man died due to their actions. The DA must see something or they would not have been charged as they were. It sucks for other LEOs that this type media coverage does reflect back on the badge that most wear with honor.

In some jurisdictions, due to pressure from a City council, Police are asked to get homeless people to move on, Emotionally disturbed people do not always act rationally, but they are not always dangerous either, training and experience are important in dealing with anyone, many LEOs are not prepared to deal with people and diverse situations you may find them at their best or worst, and a LEO needs to know how to deal with these situations or find another line of work.

Jayhawker

Call 911....Be a good witness.....same thing I would do for any other dirtbag committing a crime. Getting cooler heads on the scene may well help.
Ridiculous as it sound, cops need to reminded at EVERY daily briefing that people ARE watching them and cameras ARE EVERYWHERE

DoctorWho

I had an incident last night over a repo vehicle, it was reported stolen, good thing the responding Officers were already acquainted with Me, so everything went well.....

Buford

In Los Angeles you are lucky if you just get beaten, they just might shoot you. LAPDs finest had to shoot dead a 100lb homeless woman brandishing a screw driver.

gator

Buford wrote: »

In Los Angeles you are lucky if you just get beaten, they just might shoot you. LAPDs finest had to shoot dead a 100lb homeless woman brandishing a screw driver.

Now I thought that was what Tazsers were for.

Big Chief

Naw, some Schizo guy in Tampa was shot years ago when he came to the door/threatened LEOs with a BBQ fork. His sister had called and said please don't hurt him because he is ain't right upstairs. Makes you wonder if they might have used some non-lethal means.

BTW, there is practically nothing you can do that won't escalate the situation, best to comply and complain later. I know that's not the answer we want to hear, but it's reality and better than getting beat or shot trying to interfere.

It would be difficult to stand still if you were watching a loved one get beat/manhandled by some cops for no reason and protective instincts will surely try and kick in. But having both of you in the hospital injured/dead or jail surely won't help matters.

Hopefully we will never have to experience something like this. I do see a swing of the pendulum the last few years (in general) towards the general public being less and less sympathetic to LEOs when they do wrong or make bad judgement calls because of situations mentioned in this thread.

I don't know all the reasons for this trend. Once upon a time, it was the other way around and LEOs had their hands tied and perps walked that should have been behind bars. It seems to me it's getting worse with more incidents since all this para-military/tactical gear and attitude has come about that widens the gulf between "Civilians" and LEOs. Especially, post 9-11.

Buford

cpj wrote: »

Am I to take it that some of you guys would watch your wife or child get beat to a pulp and do NOTHING about it? Just stand there and be a good witness?
Yall have more control than I do.

That's not going to happen. If nothing else I will become their focus of attention.