A spin on getting pulled while carrying (Oh Scott, an idear for your show!)

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Replies

  • SirGeorgeKillianSirGeorgeKillian Senior Member Posts: 5,458 Senior Member
    This is where I disagree. Every LEO I have ever talked to prefers when you keep your hands in plain view until instructed otherwise. Reaching for your wallet while being stopped is a bad way to start a routine traffic stop out IMHO....
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I'm in love with a Glock
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,052 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    ..., Any LEO would rather those be ready and in hand by the time he or she approaches.
    Not the LEO's I've talked with. They're rather wait a little bit of time for me to get the ID than to make movements that they don't know what I'm reaching for. They've told me they'd rather see either my hands on the wheel, or hands out the open window.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Can you please explain to Me how any of that is material when the LE vehicle is 50 + feet away ?
    And how having ones ID's / Credentials handy a bad thing ????

    Once a LEO is exiting the LE vehicle I would say all movement should cease.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    That is what I tried to say, when you see the flashing lights have your ID's ready and in hand, hand them over when asked and answer all questions when asked.

    Oh, sure, you're totally correct there, if you have time go get your paperwork and maybe gun out before the cop approaches, yes absolutely. But don't go funbling for something if the cop's already standing there. Makes them nervois.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,052 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Can you please explain to Me how any of that is material when the LE vehicle is 50 + feet away ?
    And how having ones ID's / Credentials handy a bad thing ????

    Once a LEO is exiting the LE vehicle I would say all movement should cease.
    Uh, the LEO sees MOVEMENT in the car that is undefined. Could be reaching for driver's license/registration, could be reaching for a gun. It's what they're teaching in officer survival nowadays. Some folks keep their wallets in the center console or a cubby. You could just as easily stash a gun there and the officer not know until he or she walks up on you.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,321 Senior Member
    An officer being able to watch your hands move (preferrably slowly or at least not hurried) and get the required information at least gives him the opportunity to see what you are doing and react accordingly. Approaching a vehicle after "undefined movement" leaves the officer the only option of reacting to an unknown situation, which could be a threat in his or her eyes. Frequently they are already too far behind the power curve, having to be reactive in many situations. I'd rather see the reach for a gun rather than have it pointing at me and already firing by the time I relaize I need to react. How many times has that happened to a LEO?
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Well in any case I always keep My DL / CCW / Ins card etc.. separate on the visor ( on a rubberband) when I drive, so by the time I pull over, those items are in hand.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • dlddld Member Posts: 375 Member
    Jeeper wrote: »
    RULE #1: You NEVER EVER START OFF TELLING THE OFFICER YOU'RE ARMED.

    Luis

    but officer I am armed, got a left arm and a right arm
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,052 Senior Member
    Your choice. I will say this much, in the time since you've been an LEO, things have probably changed. All I can say is that the LEO's in my area overwhelmingly want NO hand movement from a person when they pull them over until they tell them what to do. Something about wanting to know what's in your hands and making sure it's just that.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Jack BurtonJack Burton Member Posts: 379 Member
    I've personally had 3 situations:

    One was prior to obtaining my CCW. Gun was locked in glove box where of course my registration was located. Upon notification of this I was asked to exit my car, we went around the passenger side where I gave the officer my key to unlock glove box, after a brief attempt he handed it back for me to do it when the task proved too difficult for him. Or maybe he had second thoughts about bending down to do it with an unknown standing behind him. I opened the box as smoothly and slowly as possible and backed away while he removed the gun and instructred me to get the paper work which I did. He took my gun with him to his cruiser after he unloaded it, kind of clumsily I might add. After which my unloaded Gun was returned and I was giving a warning (U-turn violation).

    Two was a stop due to the fact that my rear window was broken out from an unsuccessful attempt to steal it and I had yet to replace it. I had a CCW at the time and was carrying. It was night on a dark suburban road and he approached the driver side. I said nothing about being armed and handed him my DL, Reg, & Ins card he took it back to his cruiser returned 5 min later and told me I was good to go.

    Three was also at night and only a few months after two, still had CCW and was carrying, and was unsure why I was pulled over although it was late, (I worked late at the time and was even wearing my work shirt), upon putting the car into park and killing the engine, I was told via speaker to exit my car. With high beams and spot light filling my rear view, I just wasn't sure what to do with my gun, but the thought of touching it at that moment was not an appealing prospect. So out I went, as is. Deputy asked me where I was going, and I told him I had just closed my shop and was heading home. He asked me if I had any drugs or weapons, and I came clean about my gun, making sure my hands were away from my body as I told him. He drew his weapon and told me to turn around and lie face down on the grass with hands out while he radioed for back up. Once he had 3 back up deputies they cuffed me first before they disarmed me and took my DL, Reg, CCW, Ins card to check me out. As that was taking place the fire ants began to announce their presence on my torso and arms. I asked the deputy who was covering me for assistance and he did his best but things were nearly intolerable. Once things were all sorted out (i.e. I had no warrants and my CCW was legit) I was told I could get up and sit on the trunk (after they searched it) while they searched the rest of my car. Finding nothing, they took the cuffs off allowing me to take care of the remaining fire ants. A Sgt told me how dumb I was to exit the vehicle while armed. I asked, with no sarcasm intended, if it would have been smarter to be disarming (and/or drawing) at the moment the deputy came to the window? He said that they never do that at night. I told him I had been recently stopped at night and the officer approached my car. Turns out two was a city cop and three was county, each dept. having different procedures. I don't recall recieving an answer from the Sgt that would have avoided this situation in the future.
    So at night (and sometimes during the day if in a bad area) I disarm as I slowly coast to a stop. I slide my gun under the seat and if asked I would only then come clean. With hands locked at 10 & 2 of course. I've probably done this 2 or 3 times since then, but none of which did they ask me about weapons, nor did I volunteer same. I am in no way advocating this procedure, just trying demonstrate how annoyingly complicating this scenario is.
    Came for the fishing, stayed for the guns.
  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    ...
    Three was also at night and only a few months after two, still had CCW and was carrying, and was unsure why I was pulled over although it was late, (I worked late at the time and was even wearing my work shirt), upon putting the car into park and killing the engine, I was told via speaker to exit my car. With high beams and spot light filling my rear view, I just wasn't sure what to do with my gun, but the thought of touching it at that moment was not an appealing prospect. So out I went, as is. Deputy asked me where I was going, and I told him I had just closed my shop and was heading home. He asked me if I had any drugs or weapons, and I came clean about my gun, making sure my hands were away from my body as I told him. He drew his weapon and told me to turn around and lie face down on the grass with hands out while he radioed for back up. Once he had 3 back up deputies they cuffed me first before they disarmed me and took my DL, Reg, CCW, Ins card to check me out. As that was taking place the fire ants began to announce their presence on my torso and arms. I asked the deputy who was covering me for assistance and he did his best but things were nearly intolerable. Once things were all sorted out (i.e. I had no warrants and my CCW was legit) I was told I could get up and sit on the trunk (after they searched it) while they searched the rest of my car. Finding nothing, they took the cuffs off allowing me to take care of the remaining fire ants. A Sgt told me how dumb I was to exit the vehicle while armed. I asked, with no sarcasm intended, if it would have been smarter to be disarming (and/or drawing) at the moment the deputy came to the window? He said that they never do that at night. I told him I had been recently stopped at night and the officer approached my car. Turns out two was a city cop and three was county, each dept. having different procedures. I don't recall recieving an answer from the Sgt that would have avoided this situation in the future.
    So at night (and sometimes during the day if in a bad area) I disarm as I slowly coast to a stop. I slide my gun under the seat and if asked I would only then come clean. With hands locked at 10 & 2 of course. I've probably done this 2 or 3 times since then, but none of which did they ask me about weapons, nor did I volunteer same. I am in no way advocating this procedure, just trying demonstrate how annoyingly complicating this scenario is.

    I would have filed a complaint IMMEDIATELY against both police departments and the cops if what happened to you in #3 happened to me. That is simply an unacceptable way of treating an armed citizen. I'd have asked for names and badge numbers even though that information was probably recorded by the dispatchers. Those departments need to be trained and retrained. They also had no right to search your vehicle, unless you authorized it or had reasonable articulable suspicion. Having a firearm on your is not RAS, especially after having check your carry license checked.

    As I said in my original response above, every cop and department is different. It's better to know your laws, know your rights, and divulge as little to cops as possible. Better yet, DON'T talk to the police: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

    Al
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,952 Senior Member
    Jack, your third experience there sounds like an inexperienced officer who didn't do his job calling in your tag PRIOR to beginning his stop. That's some BS and I'd have been :cuss: afterwards. At the VERY least I'd have asked to have a word with his superiors about my being asked to lie in the dirt and ants for no reason at all.... unless they had a VERY good reason for the stop in the first place (like your vehicle/description matched that of a suspect at the time).

    We do NOT live in WWII Germany, and there is a reason why we have laws against unreasonable searches and seizures.

    Luis

    ps. Al beat me to it. I totally agree with him. You should have filed complaints to make sure they don't think they can do that anytime they want to.
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • Jack BurtonJack Burton Member Posts: 379 Member
    mythaeus wrote: »
    They also had no right to search your vehicle, unless you authorized it

    I did. I Had nothing to hide. As for the rest I don't know how else things could have gone differently on both ends. I don't expect them to take a plastic card and immediately assume I'm no threat.
    Came for the fishing, stayed for the guns.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    When I was a LEO, a friend called Me and told Me she was broke down in a really bad section of Coney Island, N.Y.C. known for the amount of murder victims found there frequently, while I was checking out her car, marked patrol cars pulled in front and in back, I was of course armed, and held My tin / badge high and yelled " I'm on the job" and after that it was all good, after they asked if I needed help, I did not, got her car working and we were off....

    I had encounters like that once in a while, but once I would produce My credentials, there would be no further problems.....
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,952 Senior Member
    I did. I Had nothing to hide. As for the rest I don't know how else things could have gone differently on both ends. I don't expect them to take a plastic card and immediately assume I'm no threat.

    I do. I at LEAST expect to be treated like a law abiding citizen after jumping through the hoops for my CWP. I certainly do NOT expect to be treated like a wanted felon. Which, by the way, is how you were treated during that stop. That was an almost textbook "Felony Stop" procedure... the same thing they'd use if they pulled you over after discovering that your tag was that of a wanted felon.

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    I did. I Had nothing to hide. As for the rest I don't know how else things could have gone differently on both ends. I don't expect them to take a plastic card and immediately assume I'm no threat.

    I'm sorry, but over-compliance to authority demands is the very reason they will continue to trample on constitutional rights and will continue to do so. Unless you know and defend your rights, you will lose it, not just for yourself, but for others. Your rights were grossly violated, but if you couldn't see that then not much else anyone can say. I highly recommend you watch the video I posted in my first reply in reference to "I had nothing to hide". I also recommend perhaps reading the Constitution, especially the 2nd, 4th, and 5th amendments.

    Al
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Also, there are a greater number of Retired / Armed LE folks traveling throughout the country nowadays, do you think they get treated like that ? do you think they would stand for it ?
    Why should a law abiding citizen be treated worse ?
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • jguilletjrjguilletjr New Member Posts: 6 New Member
    According to the law where I live, If I am the driver I give him my license and cc permit, and advise him that I am armed. (Keeing both hands in plain view)
    If I am the passanger and he does not approach me in an official capacity I am not required to say any thing. I would however keep both hands in plain sight. Those guys have a though enough job with out getting an attitude from me.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    The idea of rummaging around and getting out your paperwork and maybe even your concealed weapon while the cops are behind you isn't what I'd recommend. ALL movement in the car will be seen as suspicious.

    Law says your concealed weapon should remain concealed until it's used or requested by LEO. Never pull it out prior.

    If you're stopped, driver or passenger, sit STILL and keep hands visible and WAIT till the cop asks you to do something, and not before. When I've been stopped it's "Officer, my license and insurance are all in order, paperwork in my wallet. I'm also got a concealed carry permit and the weapon is in my center console."

    Then the cop says, "Okay, just leave the console shut, let me see your license..." etc. Then and only then do I move my hands and retrieve the wallet. Then my hands go back to the steering wheel. My response would be the same if I were a passenger -- zero movement until requested.

    Now that's just how I've been taught that Texas LEOs want it. If other state LEOs are happy with you retrieving your pistol and letting it dangle in your hand while being stopped, so be it. Not in Texas however.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    "Now that's just how I've been taught that Texas LEOs want it. If other state LEOs are happy with you retrieving your pistol and letting it dangle in your hand while being stopped, so be it. Not in Texas however."

    You seem as of late to be rather spurious perhaps specious in your reasoning.
    I never mentioned doing any rummaging, as I keep my so called paperwork apart and in the visor, how and why is that so difficult a concept to grasp ?

    To paraphrase Tim Robbins in Shawshank redemption:
    Why are You so obtuse ? is it deliberate ?
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,052 Senior Member
    Wow. You're commenting on someone being obtuse...
    Overkill is underrated.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,809 Senior Member
    Going back to the original question of the passenger being armed, I can only speak to what is acceptable in TN. Keep your hands in plain sight, and when officer is at the driver's window, announce that you have a CCP and a weapon on you, and where it is, as soon as practical. No surprises = better outcome.

    My own experience with being pulled over has been a crap shoot every time, but has always had one thing in common. If the officer is 5ft 10in or less in height, I have been ordered to exit the vehicle. Officers don't like to talk to the door handle of the truck.:roll2: When I travel outside East TN, or go to Chattanooga or Knoxville, or go on vacation, I carry my DL, CCW permit, registration and insurance paperwork in a cut down eyeglass case in my shirt pocket. No reaching for a wallet in my back pocket and getting Officer Smudgins in a tizzy. TN Highway Patrol is another crap shoot; they use the DUI checkpoints to write tickets for no seat belt, no insurance, etc., and some of them can be a little hyper when encountering a CCW permit holder.

    I absolutely hate a nighttime stop. First it's the 5 bazillion candlepower spotlight shining in the car blinding you as you try to pull over to the shoulder, and then the 6 D-Cell Maglight beam in the eyes during the whole procedure. All the licenses and paperwork in the glasses case makes it easier to deal with. If you make any mention of the light blinding you, you can be assured Officer Smudgins will keep said Maglight beam in your eyes for the whole time. This is a stone cold guarantee in certain counties in South GA bordering I-75. I wear those stupid clip-on flip down sunglasses on my regular eyeglasses when driving at night; beats a headache from bright light in the eyes. I wear them at night in case I'm pulled over, and flip them down as soon as the spotlight comes on. The officer(s) could care less that they've screwed up your night vision for the next 1-2 hours; it's all about control.
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,052 Senior Member
    Don't forget that if you move your head to try and avoid the bright light, they'll tell you to please look at the officer. Which you can't do because there's a glowing white orb in front of you, searing you optic nerves.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 25,809 Senior Member
    Don't forget that if you move your head to try and avoid the bright light, they'll tell you to please look at the officer. Which you can't do because there's a glowing white orb in front of you, searing you optic nerves.

    The way I figure it, nobody is that ignorant of what looking into a bright light is like at night, so it is done on purpose. All you can see when you look away is an indistinct blurry ring with a big black spot in the middle. I sat on the side of the road one night for half an hour before the black spot of nothing disappeared; wasn't about to drive when I couldn't see. Reason I was pulled over originally; I moved to the right side of the road to avoid a retread 'alligator' that was laying crosswise across the road. Since I moved across the right hand white line to avoid it, I'd done a bad thing.:nono:
    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.


  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Doc, I didn't mention you specifically. There are other responses in this thread where someone said they would dig out their paperwork while waiting on the cop to come to the car.

    Having your paperwork clipped to the visor is I suppose okay, although each time I left my car, taking my license with me in my wallet and then re-clipping it again would be a chore. That's just me.

    I wasn't being obtuse. I simply wasn't singling you out. Your method of keeping your paperwork clipped to the visor was unique. I suppose it would be handy if you're stopped, that's for sure.

    For me, retrieving the paperwork and putting it back into my wallet each time I got out of the car and then restoring it to the visor would be more work than I'd need, assuming that the only time I'd need the info quickly would be if I were stopped, which happens to me, mmm, once per 2-3 years max. So the convenience of having the papers handy if stopped compared with the chore of transferring them from wallet to visor over and over again, for me, wouldn't be worth it. Again, that's just for me. Maybe you get stopped more often than I. Or maybe you're working in a commercial vehicle, where drivers often keep their special license and IDs ready. I'm in a private car so that would be different.

    What I'm looking at here is the vast majority of citizens. Most drivers keep their licenses in wallets or purses, depending on gender. I've got my driver's license in a visible pocket, behind it is my insurance card. Adjacent is my concealed permit, so both picture IDs are visible side by side. For me, that's just the handy way to do it.

    Your reaching up to the visor to retrieve your license is a lot less threatening and far more visible than someone else rummaging in their wallet, tilting sideways to get the wallet out, moving a lot in the car, all the while the LEO is behind you, running the plates maybe. Your movement is not suspicious but mine might be. Which is why I sit still until the officer asks for something, then I move.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    You guys are right -- getting stopped at night is always a hassle. The LEO is more guarded, and bright lights are always used.

    My primary objective if stopped is to get the officer on his way again as quickly as possible by cooperating and being extra friendly, mister nice guy.

    If I'm driving drunk, which thankfully I no longer do, then I'm at fault and deserve what I get. If I'm just a bit too fast or maybe pushed that yellow back there, well, smiling and saying "yes officer" might get me out of a ticket. My plan is to put his mind at ease and hopefully he'll let me slide on a minor traffic thing.

    But always, always, I sit still, hands on the wheel, and immediately tell the officer about my CHL and where the gun is. Of course it pops up on the license check but still...

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • Jack BurtonJack Burton Member Posts: 379 Member
    Sorry I didn't read the part about being a passenger in this scenario.....
    But a few clarifications
    That 3rd stop was perhaps 1997 or 98 so details are a little fuzzy and was in a REALLY bad spot in Orlando. When the officer told me to exit I had not as yet begun to get my DL and stuff together and rather than fumble around for it after his command to exit, I did what he asked. I'm pretty sure he asked me about weapons and drugs prior to producing my DL & Reg. In which case I would have included my CCW, but he drew his gun and told me to turn around when I truthfully answered his question.

    Should I have refused to comply at this point? I lived through this, it did suck and I was not happy about it during or after I just don't know how else it could've been better handled.
    Came for the fishing, stayed for the guns.
  • I'm goneI'm gone New Member Posts: 15 New Member
    After reading all this, I'm still confused what is the right thing to do.
  • SirGeorgeKillianSirGeorgeKillian Senior Member Posts: 5,458 Senior Member
    Much of that is going to depend on your local laws. My policy is to always tell that info before I go reaching for anything. But that's just me.
    Unless life also hands you water and sugar, your lemonade is gonna suck!
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    I'm in love with a Glock
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